Let's talk about PvP system!

[Mantigora]

You know what is fair? That people that DO NOT want PVP can have a server where they do not have to deal with it.
Question: How many PVP-private servers are there?
Answer: NEARLY ALL of them.

Fair would be to have SOME servers that ARE for PVE.

[Mantigora]

And don't come up with 'I don't HAVE to interact with PVP.'
Tell that to the L1 Warrior who wants to kill some wolves in Northshire, only to see them one-shotted by a Horde Mage, FOR HOURS.
Everyone knows that there are MANY ways that PVP can be forced upon you, even though you want it not.

Edit:
To be more constructive:
I do not mind any changes in the things for PVP as long as it does not disrupt the normal game and not give unfair advantages in the world that are only obtainable through PVP.

[Jimmicz]

If you are ranking raiding a city to get 500 honor bonus for killing the Faction leader is the most silly thing you can do because you will get more penalty with Dishonorable Kills than you gain by killing the Leader.

False, we invaded SW a couple of times, killed a lot of stuff including faction leaders and we never got a single DK.
It's also not silly, if it's the only honor you gain that day, because no games did pop.
So it's actually more efficient to do city raids and grief until the other faction flags themselves to get HKs, than it is to wait 10+ hours for a single warsong game.

The core problem still is, that if one faction decides to not que a specific BG, little to no games will open up.
A lot of people just wanna hop online and play some games and they can't do that.
So they idle in que all day, to might just be AFK the second one pops open, miss that eventually and then is screwed, because it's the only game they couldve gotten in. And thats the reason why people wanted X-Faction to begin with. Being unable to play an aspect of the game is what creates frustration, which results in stuff like tension between factions that are able to freely communicate (endless worldchat discussions, where people essentially talk against walls, lets be real) or people will flat out leave.

I can quote Count on that as well: I wanna play on this server AND i want to be able to do pvp, whenever i log in.

I do not believe that you invaded SW in 40 man raid and you haven't pulled a single vendor DPS to get DHK.

You do realize that even on Classic with full server pop and x-server BGs the AV had 1h 45m queue right? Here you are asking for games to be available all the time but that again comes down to server pop and players doing pvp, that have nothing to do with the PVP system at all, that's pop issue.

[Limitru]

You know what is fair? That people that DO NOT want PVP can have a server where they do not have to deal with it.
Question: How many PVP-private servers are there?
Answer: NEARLY ALL of them.

Fair would be to have SOME servers that ARE for PVE.

And that is exactly not fair. You want to exclude people from a game, because you don't like one aspect of said game.

Second, if that LVL 1 Character in Elwynn gets his his little wolves griefed, he should not be qq'ing there, but instead ask their faction for help, because there is a griefer in their zone. It's natural behaviour in this game, that people get rid of those people by themselves. Every server, pve or pvp, i have been on for the past 10 years done it that way and it's working perfectly fine. And you can go to any other starting zone as well. Also people here got banned for intentionally tricking HC's into attacking them. So that part of griefing is taking very seriously

You don't want a solution for the problem you describe. You want a safe space. If you wanted a solution, you would not argue in a way, that changes core aspects of the game.

[Limitru]

If you are ranking raiding a city to get 500 honor bonus for killing the Faction leader is the most silly thing you can do because you will get more penalty with Dishonorable Kills than you gain by killing the Leader.

False, we invaded SW a couple of times, killed a lot of stuff including faction leaders and we never got a single DK.
It's also not silly, if it's the only honor you gain that day, because no games did pop.
So it's actually more efficient to do city raids and grief until the other faction flags themselves to get HKs, than it is to wait 10+ hours for a single warsong game.

The core problem still is, that if one faction decides to not que a specific BG, little to no games will open up.
A lot of people just wanna hop online and play some games and they can't do that.
So they idle in que all day, to might just be AFK the second one pops open, miss that eventually and then is screwed, because it's the only game they couldve gotten in. And thats the reason why people wanted X-Faction to begin with. Being unable to play an aspect of the game is what creates frustration, which results in stuff like tension between factions that are able to freely communicate (endless worldchat discussions, where people essentially talk against walls, lets be real) or people will flat out leave.

I can quote Count on that as well: I wanna play on this server AND i want to be able to do pvp, whenever i log in.

I do not believe that you invaded SW in 40 man raid and you haven't pulled a single vendor DPS to get DHK.

You do realize that even on Classic with full server pop and x-server BGs the AV had 1h 45m queue right? Here you are asking for games to be available all the time but that again comes down to server pop and players doing pvp, that have nothing to do with the PVP system at all, that's pop issue.

Nope, but with around 15. If people know what to do, it's literally np. We also held Bank and AH hostage with like 4-5 players for hours, while the opposite faction stood there most of the time, crying about why we do that, instead of acting.

Reality is, that we COULD play games all day. How many times during my ranking was i sitting in Org with a bunch of other pvpers just WAITING, while we couldve had 20 matches in the meantime.
I can compare this very good, to an old german tbc server i played on for a very long time. They had xfaction grps and bgs from the very start and around a daily pop of like 500 players +-on week/weekends. I logged in at most times of the day and BGs were up and running most times. Yeah you get the occassional 1 hr que during raid times and stuff like that, but its nothing NEARLY close to twows 10+ hour ques on some days.

[Jimmicz]

Nope, but with around 15. If people know what to do, it's literally np. We also held Bank and AH hostage with like 4-5 players for hours, while the opposite faction stood there most of the time, crying about why we do that, instead of acting.

Reality is, that we COULD play games all day. How many times during my ranking was i sitting in Org with a bunch of other pvpers just WAITING, while we couldve had 20 matches in the meantime.
I can compare this very good, to an old german tbc server i played on for a very long time. They had xfaction grps and bgs from the very start and around a daily pop of like 500 players +-on week/weekends. I logged in at most times of the day and BGs were up and running most times. Yeah you get the occassional 1 hr que during raid times and stuff like that, but its nothing NEARLY close to twows 10+ hour ques on some days.

Again so you want to solve population issue with xfaction ....

[Limitru]

Nope, but with around 15. If people know what to do, it's literally np. We also held Bank and AH hostage with like 4-5 players for hours, while the opposite faction stood there most of the time, crying about why we do that, instead of acting.

Reality is, that we COULD play games all day. How many times during my ranking was i sitting in Org with a bunch of other pvpers just WAITING, while we couldve had 20 matches in the meantime.
I can compare this very good, to an old german tbc server i played on for a very long time. They had xfaction grps and bgs from the very start and around a daily pop of like 500 players +-on week/weekends. I logged in at most times of the day and BGs were up and running most times. Yeah you get the occassional 1 hr que during raid times and stuff like that, but its nothing NEARLY close to twows 10+ hour ques on some days.

Again so you want to solve population issue with xfaction ....

That was my first solution brought up months ago, it got denied multiple times, even in this Thread. It's not happening.
I'm just stating the obvious over and over again, while talking to a wall, because people don't understand the problematic.

Not enough players per faction to make BGs running consistently.

No xfaction for those as stated by the staff, so that can't be a solution.

So many others and myself started to find something, that encourages more PvP, bonds that together with the philosophy of PvE and RP, hence why i came up with the open world FFA area.

And those Areas are proven to WORK. Wintergrasp during non-battle times is what i think the perfect example for that. It greatly rewarded all sorts of player interaction with quests, farming and pvp, so essentially something for everyone. High Risk, with High Rewards (well not too high of a risk, since you only can get killed and not lose items, but you get the idea). And you can still put a group together in those areas, on this server even with the opposite faction, to make you travel there, if you're not a pvp'er yourself, safer. It's also not essential for pve'rs to do that content, since you could gather pretty much in other zones and have chests all over the world, which are super easy to farm on twow.

WIth that in mind, it expands on already established systems for high level content in a new light, without excluding anyone in the process. You just give the players an alternative to do content.

[Erok2]

Lots of interesting ideas in this post! I wish to share how PVP was introduced to me and how I was I was hooked ever since. I was lucky enough to involved in the vanilla stress test and got to enjoy it with a large group of friends. On one of the last few days of the stress test we found ourselves invited into a raid of level 15 to 20s traveling from Darkshire to Booty Bay with the intent of spilling Horde Blood somewhere in Kalimdor. I don't remember where we intended to go. When we make it to STV the raid spotted that wandering Female Tauren NPC on one of the bridges and panicked, the whole raid back peddled away in fear and broke. We rallied and banded back together and resumed our journey. Tigers took a few down, the Raptors feasted, the gorillas stomped out the slow. A good hour after our adventure started our much smaller group of the survivors finally makes it to Booty Bay. As our group is heading down the ramp we can see the boat off in the distance returning to Booty Bay. I remember the excitement building as we were so close to battle! Closer than we even knew.. because the boat was covered in more red names than you could possibly count and we were all dead seconds after it landed. We had hundreds of PVP adventures in Vanilla that we reminisced about for a decade after playing, truly an amazing experience.

I have done it all and really have no more goals or aspirations in this game. I joined this unique server because I still enjoy leveling, running dungeons, and I wanted to check out the custom content and items. I am hoping to see some more low level item changes! I was also hoping vanity and status wouldn't be a factor amongst the players. Either way I am enjoying this place with a buddy of mine.

Thoughts on what people are saying in this post:
It's a PVE server - Well if you want the turtle custom experience there is no PVP option to choose from. Maybe people wish to enjoy this server and also PVP?

Don't force me to PVP! - Make PVP the reward PVP items. Not sure one could force you to flag PVP if you didn't wish to do so.

Keep PVP separate - As people suggested, add a PVP stat to PVP items. Make it so PVP stat > any tier of PVE gear for PVP. There ya go, can't get any more separate than that.

'It can't be done' - I don't understand this at all. Present your idea and let Torta and the turtle team tell you what can and cannot be done.

Player Balance in PVP - Maybe unsolvable? On popular private servers in the past they would add a login queue to the larger faction to incentivize balance.

Class Balance - The game is REMARKABLY balanced for how unique each class is. When everyone is in PVP blue items, health is high and damage is moderate. Fine tune this. It doesn't need to be perfect to be fun.

Happy Friday.

[Jimmicz]

Blood Ring is going to be cross-faction and have reputation rewards at some point. But turning other battlegrounds cross-faction won't happen. 1. I do not know how to do it. 2. It goes against everything WoW is about.

Ranking on Turtle is much easier compared to the original Vanilla, removing decay would make it even easier in my point of view.

Re X factions.

https://www.getmangos.eu/forums/topic/7 ... rde-teams/

Not sure if that helps but seems like somebody from mangos already did the work for you.

2. I would say WoW is about "War" ? So the idea of a bunch of characters jumping into BGs so they can "train" before the big battle is not something I would say is against everything WoW is about.

But then WoW on RP server is probably about something else than WoW on PVP server.

[Gheor]

Re X factions.

https://www.getmangos.eu/forums/topic/7 ... rde-teams/

Not sure if that helps but seems like somebody from mangos already did the work for you.

2. I would say WoW is about "War" ? So the idea of a bunch of characters jumping into BGs so they can "train" before the big battle is not something I would say is against everything WoW is about.

But then WoW on RP server is probably about something else than WoW on PVP server.

Clearly Horde helping the Sentinels (Night Elves) defend their lands against THE HORDE makes total sense, right?

Not trying to act like an asshole here even if it sounds like that, the whole idea of making the current BGs crossfaction is ridiculous and goes against lore which is a main part of the server's gig.
BGs in the future that can be crossfaction? Sure, nobody is against that, but not the current BGs.

[Jimmicz]

Re X factions.

https://www.getmangos.eu/forums/topic/7 ... rde-teams/

Not sure if that helps but seems like somebody from mangos already did the work for you.

2. I would say WoW is about "War" ? So the idea of a bunch of characters jumping into BGs so they can "train" before the big battle is not something I would say is against everything WoW is about.

But then WoW on RP server is probably about something else than WoW on PVP server.

Clearly Horde helping the Sentinels (Night Elves) defend their lands against THE HORDE makes total sense, right?

Not trying to act like an asshole here even if it sounds like that, the whole idea of making the current BGs crossfaction is ridiculous and goes against lore which is a main part of the server's gig.
BGs in the future that can be crossfaction? Sure, nobody is against that, but not the current BGs.

So how exactly are we helping the Sentinels by stealing a flag? What you are describing sounds more like Cataclysm questline in Ashenvale, or Player Driven World PVP RP event.

All I said prior is that if you would be willing you would find good reasoning behind xfaction teams in BGs...

And an Orc talking to a Human in Raid makes total sense, right?

[Leozan]

I guess a model swapping system is currently unavailable to work into battleground spawns. No clue how it could be implemented outside of the deviant fish food, idk if you can add other models to it or make a new item that turns horde alliance and vice versa only in instance bg’s.

Maybe at the arena have a goblin sell such an item that once the player model swapps(orc to human for example), the player can que as alliance? But I guess there’s still aggroing faction reps to consider like in AV. Plus the effect would have to persist through death.

[Tortuga]

Please, no crossfaction BGs!
1. Having worked with fixing/turtleizing some addons, I know a lot of those will go nuts in crossfaction environment.
2. People chose their faction/race for reasons. People should accept this choice's consequences.

Now for some my ideas (some from previous thread, but improved):

Glyph of Frozen Honor

1. Prevents honor loss/gain from any source. Reasoning: don't turn a game into an indentured work without days-off, vacations, etc. No-lifers should not get an advantage over people who have family.
2. Prevents queuing for BG. Reasoning: if you need no honor, you should not occupy someone else's place in BG.

Changes to PvP factions vendors

Bring PvP factions vendor to their racial cities (or all of them to the Org/SW PvP hub), and make their shops visible for any player. Reasoning: people should get the idea what they can get from these BG thing, and now some vendors are placed where no-one gets while questing normally
(@Paw, I remember what you wrote about people who join WoW for the first time, and that they might want to be surprised by "easter eggs"; I just think this could work only if the "egg" is granted to them for free. If you want people to pay with their time spent being honor-fodder to more experienced PvPers, you'd better show them what to die for, upfront)

Make twinks queue up with other twinks only

This will give twink-players (proud bearers of the twink glyph) the opponents they deserve, and make honor points really HONOR points (this suggestion might be eliminated by the next one, or they can be implemented together)

Balance BG teams inequality with honor boost/penalty

Both BG teams have their "power", calculated first at the BG start, and re-calculated when someone joins or leaves. This "team power" can be calculated any way devs think is fair: from simple adding max HPs of team members, to a complicated formula involving all stat values with their respective coefficients etc. etc.
Then, honor gains are calculated involving ratio of teams power: instead of standard vanilla honor, the new honor gain would be (Apower/Hpower)*(std_honor) for Horde, and (Hpower/Apower)*(std_honor) for Alliance. So the bigger is power disproportion, the less honor for strong team and more honor for weak team.

So no need for gearscore introduction, or new PvP stat, or gear nerfing... just a small formula fix, with a dynamically recalculated parameter. (Even if there are 5 twinks vs 2 normal chars, there will be no EZ-PZ honor farming for the twink-team, and smaller team will be rewarded for their bravery)

[Tortuga]

And re: RP PvP, as a proud member of <The Scarlet Crusade>, I would suggest a new BG:
Liberation of Lordaeron

Factions are, obviously, SC for the Alliance, and "Undercity Occupants" (Scourge would be better, but... well... orcs playing Scourge... meh)

As for the mechanics, idk if this is possible, a combo of capture-the-flag (WSG-like) and keypoints holding (AB-like). It starts with AB-style key points capture, and when the "domination score" hits some certain number, a "flag" (any item really) belonging to the dominating faction randomly appears in one of pre-defined places in the middle line of the battlefield (to avoid a single place camping), then the "flag" should be captured and brought to the dominating faction base. If this happens, the team scores a point, if not (opposing team re-captured the flag), the flag disappears. Anyway, here all the key points turn neutral, and the dom.score sets to 0.
Also the timer should be there to eliminate stalemates.

The reward should be a step into turning UC into old Lordaeron (or a step back). In the end, UC is replaced by human-owned city. (Torta said to dream, so I'm dreaming)

[Jimmicz]

Please, no crossfaction BGs!
1. Having worked with fixing/turtleizing some addons, I know a lot of those will go nuts in crossfaction environment.
2. People chose their faction/race for reasons. People should accept this choice's consequences.

Now for some my ideas (some from previous thread, but improved):

Glyph of Frozen Honor

1. Prevents honor loss/gain from any source. Reasoning: don't turn a game into an indentured work without days-off, vacations, etc. No-lifers should not get an advantage over people who have family.
2. Prevents queuing for BG. Reasoning: if you need no honor, you should not occupy someone else's place in BG.

Changes to PvP factions vendors

Bring PvP factions vendor to their racial cities (or all of them to the Org/SW PvP hub), and make their shops visible for any player. Reasoning: people should get the idea what they can get from these BG thing, and now some vendors are placed where no-one gets while questing normally
(@Paw, I remember what you wrote about people who join WoW for the first time, and that they might want to be surprised by "easter eggs"; I just think this could work only if the "egg" is granted to them for free. If you want people to pay with their time spent being honor-fodder to more experienced PvPers, you'd better show them what to die for, upfront)

Make twinks queue up with other twinks only

This will give twink-players (proud bearers of the twink glyph) the opponents they deserve, and make honor points really HONOR points (this suggestion might be eliminated by the next one, or they can be implemented together)

Balance BG teams inequality with honor boost/penalty

Both BG teams have their "power", calculated first at the BG start, and re-calculated when someone joins or leaves. This "team power" can be calculated any way devs think is fair: from simple adding max HPs of team members, to a complicated formula involving all stat values with their respective coefficients etc. etc.
Then, honor gains are calculated involving ratio of teams power: instead of standard vanilla honor, the new honor gain would be (Apower/Hpower)*(std_honor) for Horde, and (Hpower/Apower)*(std_honor) for Alliance. So the bigger is power disproportion, the less honor for strong team and more honor for weak team.

So no need for gearscore introduction, or new PvP stat, or gear nerfing... just a small formula fix, with a dynamically recalculated parameter. (Even if there are 5 twinks vs 2 normal chars, there will be no EZ-PZ honor farming for the twink-team, and smaller team will be rewarded for their bravery)

What if I don't need honor but I'm doing BGS so other players can do them as well or simply because I want to do some BGs and I don't need any rewards? And In case I would not do BGs the games would simply not pop.

This Glyph of Frozen Honor would not fix anything really as you can only gain honor, and honor itself have very low to do with PVP. It's essentially just a number to compare players in the weekly reset.

PVP vendors are in Main cities in the PVP hubs and you can access them as far as you rank up high enough for the portal to let you zone in.


BTW aren't raids crossfaction environment ? It's literally the same case as zoning in with your buddies to MC.

[Jimmicz]

I guess a model swapping system is currently unavailable to work into battleground spawns. No clue how it could be implemented outside of the deviant fish food, idk if you can add other models to it or make a new item that turns horde alliance and vice versa only in instance bg’s.

Maybe at the arena have a goblin sell such an item that once the player model swapps(orc to human for example), the player can que as alliance? But I guess there’s still aggroing faction reps to consider like in AV. Plus the effect would have to persist through death.

Even blizzard doesn't do Model Swapping in Xfaction BGs. Reason ? You keep your racial and model swap would make it a bit more difficult for your opponent to know what racial abilities you can use.

Blizzard just gives your character this weird face covering and off you go.

[Lahire]

Make twinks queue up with other twinks only

This will give twink-players (proud bearers of the twink glyph) the opponents they deserve, and make honor points really HONOR points (this suggestion might be eliminated by the next one, or they can be implemented together)

Balance BG teams inequality with honor boost/penalty

Both BG teams have their "power", calculated first at the BG start, and re-calculated when someone joins or leaves. This "team power" can be calculated any way devs think is fair: from simple adding max HPs of team members, to a complicated formula involving all stat values with their respective coefficients etc. etc.
Then, honor gains are calculated involving ratio of teams power: instead of standard vanilla honor, the new honor gain would be (Apower/Hpower)*(std_honor) for Horde, and (Hpower/Apower)*(std_honor) for Alliance. So the bigger is power disproportion, the less honor for strong team and more honor for weak team.

So no need for gearscore introduction, or new PvP stat, or gear nerfing... just a small formula fix, with a dynamically recalculated parameter. (Even if there are 5 twinks vs 2 normal chars, there will be no EZ-PZ honor farming for the twink-team, and smaller team will be rewarded for their bravery)

I don't understand what these points want to achieve from a game design point of view. Isn't that designing out of spite/fear of players? The goal of game design is to optimize fun and good experience, not to punish players who play a certain way or another because you don't like it. You look like you hate the twink concept and want to punish them.

But twinking is just a way to play the game, and part of the satisfaction of twinking comes from bashing in 1-shot normal players. If you remove this satisfaction, you remove one of the main fun goals of this way to playthe game. But it is never the designer's role (if they are a good designer that is) to say to a player "the way you play is *wrong* so I punish it".

For the honor recalculation : 2 problems
1. again it looks like a change out of spite, or fear of the players. It is an unfair idea. The "strongest" (?) team will feel punished and will want to exclude a player to become the "weakest" team, while the "weakest" team will try to convince players to *not* join the BG so they don't become the "strongest" team. It is a design which actually incentivizes grief and bad manner. When you make players feel bad (here by being punished or helped arbitrarily) they are in a state of mind which makes more likely grief behaviour to occur. And here, it is even rewarded to grief (insult a team-member until they quit so you can become the "weakest" team, for example).

2. it would incentivize weird/degenerate player behaviour to optimize it. For example : only bring mages -> total HP is low -> gain more honor while you full sheep/freeze the enemies. There must be dozens of way to abuse this kind of naive formula. The more complex the formula is, the more difficult it will be to abuse it, but it will be abused because the reward is strong.

[Tortuga]

What if I don't need honor but I'm doing BGS so other players can do them as well or simply because I want to do some BGs and I don't need any rewards?

Then I'd say you made a wrong choice playing on a RP-PvE server as if it was a PvP one. Or a wrong choice of game at all.

This Glyph of Frozen Honor would not fix anything really as you can only gain honor, and honor itself have very low to do with PVP. It's essentially just a number to compare players in the weekly reset.

Why then so many people oppose the idea to remove honor decay completely?

PVP vendors are in Main cities in the PVP hubs and you can access them as far as you rank up high enough for the portal to let you zone in.

Like this guy? https://database.turtle-wow.org/?npc=14753
To me, middle of nothing in Ashenvale is something completely different than "in Main cities in the PVP hubs"
(but you already voiced this misinfo in prev.thread, so you just start running in circles)

BTW aren't raids crossfaction environment ? It's literally the same case as zoning in with your buddies to MC.

No, as raids are designed to kill mostly equally-aggressive NPCs, while BGs are about killing the other team. BTW, have you upgraded any addon to handle crossfaction? Because until you get your hands dirty with that stuff, you will not understand what this is all about. (Try start with CensusPlus, or, if that's too hard, Auctioneer -- for this I have a temporary solution, but it requires some out-of-the-game scripts running)

[Tortuga]

But twinking is just a way to play the game, and part of the satisfaction of twinking comes from bashing in 1-shot normal players. If you remove this satisfaction, you remove one of the main fun goals of this way to playthe game. But it is never the designer's role (if they are a good designer that is) to say to a player "the way you play is *wrong* so I punish it".

Dropping infernals, or MCing NPCs are also "just a way to play the game" with it's own perverted satisfaction. Still, both these "ways" will get you banned on TWoW QQ

I don't understand what these points want to achieve from a game design point of view. Isn't that designing out of spite/fear of players? The goal of game design is to optimize fun and good experience, not to punish players who play a certain way or another because you don't like it. You look like you hate the twink concept and want to punish them.

Right, you don't understand, can't help with this.

You don't lose any part of fun and good experience this way, you still can enjoy one-shotting non-twinks. You just get a close-to-none honor points for that (these are not called HONOR points for nothing, from a game design point of view). But if you play for satisfaction, that's no problem, is it?

And Jimmicz already explained that honor doesn't matter for PvP, so why bother at all?

[Jimmicz]

Then I'd say you made a wrong choice playing on a RP-PvE server as if it was a PvP one. Or a wrong choice of game at all.

It's same thing as going into the raid just to help other people get geared or just because you like killing bosses and you might not need any gear from them

Why then so many people oppose the idea to remove honor decay completely?

What you call Honor Decay, is actually Rank Points decay..... but obviously if you would knew how PVP works you would understand what "honor" actually is and what role it plays in the whole system

Like this guy? https://database.turtle-wow.org/?npc=14753
To me, middle of nothing in Ashenvale is something completely different than "in Main cities in the PVP hubs"
(but you already voiced this misinfo in prev.thread, so you just start running in circles)

That's a faction vendor though - PVP vendors are in the main cities in Hall of Heroes / or Hall of Legends or what ever the places are called. - https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Hall_of_Legends

No, as raids are designed to kill mostly equally-aggressive NPCs, while BGs are about killing the other team. BTW, have you upgraded any addon to handle crossfaction? Because until you get your hands dirty with that stuff, you will not understand what this is all about. (Try start with CensusPlus, or, if that's too hard, Auctioneer -- for this I have a temporary solution, but it requires some out-of-the-game scripts running)

BGs for me are about completing objectives and not killing the other team because by just killing the other team you will never win the BG and will never end... try ignoring the flags in WSG and see if the match will ever end...

[Lahire]

Right, you don't understand, can't help with this.

"I don't understand" is a polite way to mediate the idea that a proposition you completely understand isn't a good one (and then I explain why it isn't good).

[Tortuga]

Right, you don't understand, can't help with this.

"I don't understand" is a polite way to mediate the idea that a proposition you completely understand isn't a good one (and then I explain why it isn't good).

Just skimmed the thread from the beginning, and Coun's one too, and it looks like the only thing you do is explaining that no proposition is good enough for you. At least you don't blame unnamed TWoW stuff member to be the biggest griefer, like your colleague Jimmicz does.

I can only quote Gheor then: "This was made for suggestions not disagreements"

[Leozan]

I guess a model swapping system is currently unavailable to work into battleground spawns. No clue how it could be implemented outside of the deviant fish food, idk if you can add other models to it or make a new item that turns horde alliance and vice versa only in instance bg’s.

Maybe at the arena have a goblin sell such an item that once the player model swapps(orc to human for example), the player can que as alliance? But I guess there’s still aggroing faction reps to consider like in AV. Plus the effect would have to persist through death.

Even blizzard doesn't do Model Swapping in Xfaction BGs. Reason ? You keep your racial and model swap would make it a bit more difficult for your opponent to know what racial abilities you can use.

Blizzard just gives your character this weird face covering and off you go.

Ah good point forgot about racials’ clarification for opponents sake. Seems to be a tough sell, but it’s a request as a result of low battleground que numbers.

If somehow bg’s were filling up more often I doubt crossfaction would be necessary anymore. Hopefully we can settle on a few good ideas in the thread and work from there.

[Paw]

I admit I haven't read this thread entirelly since it grew so big. However I want to assure everyone that there is place for pvp in pve and roleplay environment. Also I would like to mention that pvp only attracts at most 20% of our members (Forum and chat users tend to be pvp-fans thats why it seems different but believe me that it is not different.) Our team is working on some very nice PVE features that you will meet in the near future. Pvp won't go boom until winter. (and also it will be a small explosion, small but fun tho at least thats my plan) I really like ur enthusiasm so I'm going to go through the entire thread when I get the chance. Rn we are all very busy so just want u to know that we're listening and id like u to keep thread civil! Thank you!

[Lahire]

Right, you don't understand, can't help with this.

"I don't understand" is a polite way to mediate the idea that a proposition you completely understand isn't a good one (and then I explain why it isn't good).

Just skimmed the thread from the beginning, and Coun's one too, and it looks like the only thing you do is explaining that no proposition is good enough for you. At least you don't blame unnamed TWoW stuff member to be the biggest griefer, like your colleague Jimmicz does.

I can only quote Gheor then: "This was made for suggestions not disagreements"

Why the personal/polemical attacks? Get a hold of yourself, discussion between adults about a game is not a challenge and doesn't engage your selfworth.

BTW I don't wave around suggestions of my own lightly because I respect deeply the design work done for vanilla from 2001 to 2004, studied it for years and am often ruminating about why it is one of the best game designs of all time. So you won't see me throw around a lot of suggestions, sure.
If and when I'll propose some, it would have to come from a place of heavy rumination and I would have to be convinced that it doesn't disturb the equilibrium of vanilla.

I'm ruminating about pvp these days and for now, I have difficulty forming an opinion that feels correct.

[Merikkinon]

Correct? How about 'genuine for you'?

No such thing as the former.

[Jimmicz]

Right, you don't understand, can't help with this.

"I don't understand" is a polite way to mediate the idea that a proposition you completely understand isn't a good one (and then I explain why it isn't good).

Just skimmed the thread from the beginning, and Coun's one too, and it looks like the only thing you do is explaining that no proposition is good enough for you. At least you don't blame unnamed TWoW stuff member to be the biggest griefer, like your colleague Jimmicz does.

I can only quote Gheor then: "This was made for suggestions not disagreements"

All I gonna say, People who know, know.... the same when it comes to the Vanilla PVP system, the same when it comes to "unnamed TWoW staff member being the biggest griefer I met here" ..... Go back to telling PVP that Honor matters the most in Vanilla PVP and we all going to have a good day :)

PS: This is supposed to be about suggestion not about you making stuff up and being rude towards other people suggesting stuff. if you want to have a civil discussion feel free to continue here, if you want to keep attacking people telling them, "you don't understand" when you yourself clearly have no idea what you talking about, take it to DMs, my man :) I'm more than happy to help you understand the system a bit better...

[Jimmicz]

I'd say that a glyph for stopping rank decay/rank gain is a no-brainer, though. However, it would have to be non-exploitable: As soon as you get the glyph, you're out for the whole week. This would *at least* allow players to take a break - it wouldn't solve the issue with R14 being practically non-obtainable, though.

I suppose to get something what would stop you from gaining and loosing rank could work... but I really do believe that the best solution is TBC like system where honor is just a currency and everybody can "grind" at their own pace.... not sure how doable that is tough ... maybe you could downport the system ?

[Reploidrocsa]

Haven't seen anyone saying anything like this, so i'm gonna suggest it:

How about a mode to play bg's with a predefined character with a predefined gear? Something similar to a moba, so there's no gear imbalance.
Prefereably the same class you play, so you learn how to use it

Worse gear rewards compared to true pvp, and acting like an entry point for new players.

Add some more ideas proposed in this post and we could have something interesting to play. Even do some tournaments either made by the admins (tabards, titles) or made by the comunity (gold, epic crafted gear)

[Leozan]

I’d favor a more horizontal progression where the main divide against old and new players is mostly skill based than gear based.

As for a system implementation, I’d guess expand or retune gear stat/requirments. There could also be lv 60 custom crafting quests given by battlemasters that simply have players turn crafting mats to get low grade starter pvp gear for new players (even have it look low grade, basic red vs blue cloth/leather/mail/plate armor). *I’ll have a better example of this end of the week.*

Just giving a more precise update to what I mentioned last week. So for a while I've been creating a pitch for Steamwheedle Cartel faction armor/weapons here:viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2087&p=12698#p12698. I planned to create quests at lv 60 for each armor and weapon slot that would require players to turn in crafting mats to receive each item. I just copied the stats from basic green quality gear for low to mid lv 50's.

In relation to this topic rather than trying to adjust current pvp gear like I stated above, I figure it might be easier to create 30% (stat/effect)lower grade pvp gear obtainable through similar "crafting" quests at lv 60. The percent decrease will be scaled off the rank 6-10 Rare-quality honor rank gear. Nothing too crazy just reduce stats by the agreed % and reduce set bonuses and passive effects.

Below are a few basic examples for each armor type on how the gear can look in relation to faction colors. Like the Steamwheedle gear I mentioned earlier, fresh lv 60's with junk gear who want to pvp can accept these pvp crafting quests to outfit themselves. This can be a slightly more enjoyable alternative than suffering as cannon fodder for days/weeks against veteran players already geared out.

While they'll still be at a stat disadvantage to those veteran players, at least new players can all start off on an even footing. These quests will encourage pvper's to participate in pve by farming mats or dealing with pve crafters directly who might have the mats already. They can also serve as a boost for the AH economy depending on which mats are required to hand in (doesn't have to just be end game material).

CLOTH


LEATHER


MAIL


PLATE


*armor sets subject to change*

[Hardwelsam]

Talk bit more about the balance.
We have seemed enough what's the problem with blizz pvp system.
I'm not a well know member in the scripting,but I'm sure,there is a WA the system can keep watch the players gear sets in pvp -and not the gs-.

[Djijin]

Balance isn't bad in vanilla pvp, IF everyone has similar gear around the mid to upper mid-point range. This means pvp skill shines and not instant-death blasting from twinks.

On every single fresh vanilla server, pvp was absolutely a blast up until the tier 2 mark. Past that, players simply cannot complete if 2 tiers outside of someone else that has full enchants.

Pvp should be like stock car racing, where everyone has similar gear. The easiest method for this imo, would be granting everyone instant access to pvp gear sets (not epics) that can only be worn in BGs (where ranking opens gear access to the open world too). This puts most on par with each other and all raid gear blocked from BGs. The pvp epic gear is still allowed for those willing to do that race and become respected on site when seen. This means most will easily get access to pre-BIS dungeon blues and the blue pvp gear set. This should allow enough stats for gear dependent classes to scale but also not scale too much (like warriors), and damage should be low enough not to need some additional mitigation stat or something. The side affect of not allowing raid gear in bg's is increasing the value of world/dungeon purples and rare blues.

Levelers can still twink if they want, but for the love of Elune, PUT ITEM LEVEL RESTRICTIONS ON ENCHANTS!!!

Open world pvp? Not sure, but limits on pvp damage and healing calculations needs to be mitigated somehow. The uber, high tier purples simply cannot be involved in pvp or participation will tank. If pvp entry always had everyone on nearly equal grounds, participation will increase. Level/tier gating gear and enchants, so everyone is more on par with each other is the only way to change the minds of many who simply will not pvp, because twinks and Naxx geared players are utterly pointless to play against.

Raid gear should be for raiding. Open world is not raiding. Pvp is not raiding. There may need to be considerations for Hero level content vs Normal level content. This is to preserve open world content and scaling. Right now, tier 2.5 and especially 3 absolutely turns non-raid, open world content meaningless. On a server constantly adding to the open world, there should always be content a well geared player struggles with solo. This is how old school mmorpgs were built. It is why their open worlds are considered legendary and today's mmo worlds reduced to casual and largely meaningless content.

This is one topic. Pvp in general must be implemented in a lore friendly way, with ease of access on a RP-PvE server, or it will remain dead. Others here in this thread provide different solutions to a similar issue: insane scaling. Whatever solution is fine, but the problem is clear.

[Valadorn]

Balance isn't bad in vanilla pvp, IF everyone has similar gear around the mid to upper mid-point range. This means pvp skill shines and not instant-death blasting from twinks.

On every single fresh vanilla server, pvp was absolutely a blast up until the tier 2 mark. Past that, players simply cannot complete if 2 tiers outside of someone else that has full enchants.

Pvp should be like stock car racing, where everyone has similar gear. The easiest method for this imo, would be granting everyone instant access to pvp gear sets (not epics) that can only be worn in BGs (where ranking opens gear access to the open world too). This puts most on par with each other and all raid gear blocked from BGs. The pvp epic gear is still allowed for those willing to do that race and become respected on site when seen. This means most will easily get access to pre-BIS dungeon blues and the blue pvp gear set. This should allow enough stats for gear dependent classes to scale but also not scale too much (like warriors), and damage should be low enough not to need some additional mitigation stat or something. The side affect of not allowing raid gear in bg's is increasing the value of world/dungeon purples and rare blues.

Levelers can still twink if they want, but for the love of Elune, PUT ITEM LEVEL RESTRICTIONS ON ENCHANTS!!!

Open world pvp? Not sure, but limits on pvp damage and healing calculations needs to be mitigated somehow. The uber, high tier purples simply cannot be involved in pvp or participation will tank. If pvp entry always had everyone on nearly equal grounds, participation will increase. Level/tier gating gear and enchants, so everyone is more on par with each other is the only way to change the minds of many who simply will not pvp, because twinks and Naxx geared players are utterly pointless to play against.

Raid gear should be for raiding. Open world is not raiding. Pvp is not raiding. There may need to be considerations for Hero level content vs Normal level content. This is to preserve open world content and scaling. Right now, tier 2.5 and especially 3 absolutely turns non-raid, open world content meaningless. On a server constantly adding to the open world, there should always be content a well geared player struggles with solo. This is how old school mmorpgs were built. It is why their open worlds are considered legendary and today's mmo worlds reduced to casual and largely meaningless content.

This is one topic. Pvp in general must be implemented in a lore friendly way, with ease of access on a RP-PvE server, or it will remain dead. Others here in this thread provide different solutions to a similar issue: insane scaling. Whatever solution is fine, but the problem is clear.

How would u feel about the same rules applied to PvE ? You can only go to scholo / strath in prebis, no higher gear allowed, no higher lvl people allowed in dungeons, heck, why not take away all gear completly and nerf everything ? Do you even PvP ? Would u pvp if there is nothing you can gain of it ? Boohoo honor decay ? Gues what. . . Battlegrounds give rep too, there is no reputation decay and that stuff is pretty nice too. Do you even understand what taking away the pvp gear would do ? Why should anyone farm higher gear, if they would not be allowed to flex it on other people ? This is an MMO, not some racing game. What i feel like you dont understand is that MMOs main progress is Gear, you get gear so u can get more gear, what remains if you take that away?

[Valadorn]

Balance isn't bad in vanilla pvp, IF everyone has similar gear around the mid to upper mid-point range. This means pvp skill shines and not instant-death blasting from twinks.

On every single fresh vanilla server, pvp was absolutely a blast up until the tier 2 mark. Past that, players simply cannot complete if 2 tiers outside of someone else that has full enchants.

Pvp should be like stock car racing, where everyone has similar gear. The easiest method for this imo, would be granting everyone instant access to pvp gear sets (not epics) that can only be worn in BGs (where ranking opens gear access to the open world too). This puts most on par with each other and all raid gear blocked from BGs. The pvp epic gear is still allowed for those willing to do that race and become respected on site when seen. This means most will easily get access to pre-BIS dungeon blues and the blue pvp gear set. This should allow enough stats for gear dependent classes to scale but also not scale too much (like warriors), and damage should be low enough not to need some additional mitigation stat or something. The side affect of not allowing raid gear in bg's is increasing the value of world/dungeon purples and rare blues.

Levelers can still twink if they want, but for the love of Elune, PUT ITEM LEVEL RESTRICTIONS ON ENCHANTS!!!

Open world pvp? Not sure, but limits on pvp damage and healing calculations needs to be mitigated somehow. The uber, high tier purples simply cannot be involved in pvp or participation will tank. If pvp entry always had everyone on nearly equal grounds, participation will increase. Level/tier gating gear and enchants, so everyone is more on par with each other is the only way to change the minds of many who simply will not pvp, because twinks and Naxx geared players are utterly pointless to play against.

Raid gear should be for raiding. Open world is not raiding. Pvp is not raiding. There may need to be considerations for Hero level content vs Normal level content. This is to preserve open world content and scaling. Right now, tier 2.5 and especially 3 absolutely turns non-raid, open world content meaningless. On a server constantly adding to the open world, there should always be content a well geared player struggles with solo. This is how old school mmorpgs were built. It is why their open worlds are considered legendary and today's mmo worlds reduced to casual and largely meaningless content.

This is one topic. Pvp in general must be implemented in a lore friendly way, with ease of access on a RP-PvE server, or it will remain dead. Others here in this thread provide different solutions to a similar issue: insane scaling. Whatever solution is fine, but the problem is clear.

How would u feel about the same rules applied to PvE ? You can only go to scholo / strath in prebis, no higher gear allowed, no higher lvl people allowed in dungeons, heck, why not take away all gear completly and nerf everything ? Do you even PvP ? Would u pvp if there is nothing you can gain of it ? Boohoo honor decay ? Gues what. . . Battlegrounds give rep too, there is no reputation decay and that stuff is pretty nice too. Do you even understand what taking away the pvp gear would do ? Why should anyone farm higher gear, if they would not be allowed to flex it on other people ? This is an MMO, not some racing game. What i feel like you dont understand is that MMOs main progress is Gear, you get gear so u can get more gear, what remains if you take that away?

On a side note, reaching higher ranks on turtle is alot easier, you can get pvp blues in a few weeks, you barely have to play for it. If thats not enough for you, nothing will be

[Paw]

I'm gonna bring this up again. Maybe the idea catches on! Turtle competition. (Don't require much developement. We can really use any ingame mechanix. It requires one thing on our end that which is an idea [aka:brain-decrement] that which we could start building throughout the remaining of autumn. One which we would release for the winter... till spring comes everyones happy and we didnt freeze to death.) Atm I have no idea at hand but u are quite creative so I would like to hear them if any came to your mind.
Rewards, progression, we don't have to build a story but is welcome. Could put in parkour, throughout Azeroth races, collecting, profession requirements, almost forgot... don't know how to set up that part but I wanna work that out myself: duel-challenge ranking (solo and as well team sport). n' of course last but not least organised open world pvp events where I will definitely need your help cause I'm very much lost when it comes to that topic. All I know are the big cities but I wanna avoid them entirelly this time around. Mabye if the idea is welcome then in the summer.