Let's talk about PvP system!

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Jcarrill0
Posts: 188
Location: Azeroth

Re: Let's talk about PvP system!

Post by Jcarrill0 » Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:41 pm

Pretty sure TBC solved it, But i personally loved the Vanilla PvP System.

If there was a way for TurtleWoW to use the TBC Database, yet still come up with the Vanilla PvP system still in place I wouldn't play anywhere else.

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Lahire
Posts: 151

Re: Let's talk about PvP system!

Post by Lahire » Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:12 pm

I hate the pvp reward system of TBC. Tokens/points used to buy gear is the flattest mechanic for acquisition of gear, it feels far worse than being acknowledge by a rank. It feels like receiving mickey points at disneyland for a plushie. You don't feel like a warrior recognized by their people, but like a kid at a fun fair who gets a pat on the head.

According to K. Jordan and the loot designer who did the famous GDC conference, it was considered a defeat of design when they did these token mechanics. They couldn't solve the "pvp reward problem" (I don't think it exists but whatever, they constituted it as a "problem"), so they did this easy fix knowing it was shit design.
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Pawpaw
Posts: 9

Re: Let's talk about PvP system!

Post by Pawpaw » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:20 am

The "pvp reward problem" is that you need gear to pvp, but you shouldnt have to pvp in order to pve, and vice versa.

I personally play battlegrounds because they are fun, and grind gear/ranks because I am forced to, in order to enjoy the battlegrounds. Whomever designed the vanilla pvp reward system was an idiot. The rank system and reward system are counter intuitive. I will explain why:

The reward system is a progression system - reward somewhat related to effort/time.
The ranking system is competitive.

Somehow some moron got the idea to combine these two system into what we know as vanilla pvp. To progress reward acquisition you need to compete, but in order to compete, you need the gear rewards. People with better gear can compete better than you, and thus blocks your progression. The only way to get around this is for higher geared players to step aside and let you progress to gain better gear, but now it is not competitive anymore. Which is how it works on Classic. People cycle through grand marshall / high warlord, they even have an official queue, for whos turn it is to become rank 14 next week and arrange honor grinding matches. This is ridiculous. On top of this most people quit the game after reaching rank 14. Because at this point, not only do they outgear other pvp'ers, but they are also limited on how much they can play to not block others progression.

Seperating the two systems is the best way I see to make it more fun. Free the players to play for fun by letting High Warlord and Grand Marshall belong to the best PvP'ers, and let people progress freely, regardless of how much other people play. That is the problem that TBC solved with the honor points gear progression.

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Afaslizo
Posts: 23

Re: Let's talk about PvP system!

Post by Afaslizo » Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:42 am

What I hate about the PvP-System is the nonsense of the titles on the RP-Background as in "Someone is really good at killing people so we make him a Grand Marshall". As if generals are just glorified mass murderers. Generals should be mostly concerned about strategy and leave tactics (like Arathi and Alterac are based on) in the hand of lesser officers. Warsong Gulch is not even a real tactics game, it is just a brawl and should not even concern more than one officer each side.

Sure people like ranks but why are there fourteen mostly absurd and rp-unfriendly titles around? I propose a far flatter curve in titles with five in general to lessen the grinding and one to three being easier to earn than the rest of them. The higher ranks than should be earned in special pvp-zones disconnected from the rest of world where they would have to both give battle themselves as well as command npcs in their position as officers. Highest rank should be something like a lieutenant because those are actually still found on the field. Those zones should be about winning bonus ressources for the factions with special trade npcs avaible in capitals so the whole community profits from them and cost reduction per pvp-rank. Give those npcs pvp-themed-goods, some skins and maybe other vanity items and it should be viable.

Progression would be: BGs to earn the first three ranks, pvp-zones with command integrated for the latter two ranks. Maybe two pvp zones at start - Dragon Isles northwest of Tirisfal seems like a good start, could center around harvesting dragon hoards before the opposite faction does; Tel Abim to gain access to the banana monopol. Then you have a Hoard Vendor and Tel Abim Trading Company Salesman in every capital city to sell zone themes pvp goods and vanity items. That should give people incentive to see pvp exclusive content and leave the world pve and rp.

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Mativh
Posts: 4

Re: Let's talk about PvP system!

Post by Mativh » Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:41 pm

Here is a solution that won't force PVE players to do World PVP, nor will it cut out a part of vanilla WoW that many consider essential, it's also the easiest to implement compared to other suggestions here:

Make a challenge, like the hardcore/turtle challenge, that will, once accepted, make the character flagged for pvp as if it was a pvp server. Let's be honest nobody does world pvp by typing /pvp, it just not how it works, claiming that world pvp shouldn't be optionally permanent or at least long lasting, because there is the option to type /who, is disingenuous, nobody does world pvp that way. And if you think World PVP is unfair and you prefer a standardized settting like a battleground, then don't take part in the challenge.

This would not affect negatively the anti-pvp people, and it would allow world pvp to be enjoyed as it's intended to be.

If you think world pvp is bad, don't take part in the challenge, but if you change your mind you can flag yourself for pvp and fight those that are flagged permanently, then turn the flag off, since you aren't taking part in the challenge.

The hardcore challenge brought many new people and created an amazing community. This WPVP challenge could do the same, also more players would mean that there will be more revenue, supporting the Turtle WoW devs and allowing resources for even more great custom content.

There could be some additions/changes, like the challenge not being only from lvl 1, or it being something that lasts multiple days and then it needs to be turned on again, or a penalty for killing greys similar to ressurection sickness or ending the challenge. Or a question of whether diplomacy and this challenge would be mutually exclusive.

Again this WPVP challenge would be optional, people not liking WPVP wouldn't be affected by it at all.

Being against this even if it doesn't affect you as a pve player, and thinking that everyone is toxic who considers faction conflict an important part of wow, is irrational, generalizing that way is actually toxic. I don't see any reason why this shouldn't be implemented, it'd be definitely less work than opening a new pvp server, or any additional custom pvp content or events. It'd satisfy everyone, whether you like wpvp or not.

Turtle WoW makes emphasis on immersion, on being true to the lore and vanilla wow. A big part of the vanilla community believes that involves world pvp, may they have this option with the challenge that flags them for pvp as if they were on a pvp server.

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Lonjo
Posts: 19

Re: Let's talk about PvP system!

Post by Lonjo » Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:33 pm

Mativh wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:41 pm
Here is a solution that won't force PVE players to do World PVP, nor will it cut out a part of vanilla WoW that many consider essential, it's also the easiest to implement compared to other suggestions here:

Make a challenge, like the hardcore/turtle challenge, that will, once accepted, make the character flagged for pvp as if it was a pvp server. Let's be honest nobody does world pvp by typing /pvp, it just not how it works, claiming that world pvp shouldn't be optionally permanent or at least long lasting, because there is the option to type /who, is disingenuous, nobody does world pvp that way. And if you think World PVP is unfair and you prefer a standardized settting like a battleground, then don't take part in the challenge.

This would not affect negatively the anti-pvp people, and it would allow world pvp to be enjoyed as it's intended to be.

If you think world pvp is bad, don't take part in the challenge, but if you change your mind you can flag yourself for pvp and fight those that are flagged permanently, then turn the flag off, since you aren't taking part in the challenge.

The hardcore challenge brought many new people and created an amazing community. This WPVP challenge could do the same, also more players would mean that there will be more revenue, supporting the Turtle WoW devs and allowing resources for even more great custom content.

There could be some additions/changes, like the challenge not being only from lvl 1, or it being something that lasts multiple days and then it needs to be turned on again, or a penalty for killing greys similar to ressurection sickness or ending the challenge. Or a question of whether diplomacy and this challenge would be mutually exclusive.

Again this WPVP challenge would be optional, people not liking WPVP wouldn't be affected by it at all.

Being against this even if it doesn't affect you as a pve player, and thinking that everyone is toxic who considers faction conflict an important part of wow, is irrational, generalizing that way is actually toxic. I don't see any reason why this shouldn't be implemented, it'd be definitely less work than opening a new pvp server, or any additional custom pvp content or events. It'd satisfy everyone, whether you like wpvp or not.

Turtle WoW makes emphasis on immersion, on being true to the lore and vanilla wow. A big part of the vanilla community believes that involves world pvp, may they have this option with the challenge that flags them for pvp as if they were on a pvp server.
*cough* viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2177 *cough*

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Kalocsa
Posts: 36

Re: Let's talk about PvP system!

Post by Kalocsa » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:13 am

What we want to see is a ranked MMR for Blood ring and others possible arenas, instead of randoms encounters unfixed by a state.

Well, nothing new, just TBC arenas.

EDIT: What we also want to see is azshara crater BG, and things like that. New battlegrounds obviously. With new rewards.
"Even the biggest mouth clam on a thread, can enclose a goldern pearl."

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Mativh
Posts: 4

Re: Let's talk about PvP system!

Post by Mativh » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:31 pm

Lonjo wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:33 pm
*cough* viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2177 *cough*
Although a cool idea, I don't see why you would link that complex system as if what I've suggested was the same thing...
My idea couldn't be simpler yet satisfying for both sides; a challenge that allows people to do world pvp as if they were on a pvp server (permanently flagged, as nobody does wpvp by flagging on/off at will, that's not how it works), while the pve population being unaffected.
Don't get me wrong, I like what you've linked, I just see the challenge I've proposed to be more realistic as it'd be in line with wows lore, big part of which is faction conflict, instead of a whole new criminal system to justify wpvp, it'd be also much easier to implement, saving the turtle teams time and resources that could be spent on cool custom content, instead of trying to reinvent the wpvp wheel. And of course the growth of population caused by this dynamic challenge that would allow people to act as if they were on a pvp server while the server would remain to be pve for those that dislike wpvp, would increase revenue and support the server.

Mcnair
Posts: 13

Re: Let's talk about PvP system!

Post by Mcnair » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:56 pm

Mativh wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:31 pm
permanently flagged, as nobody does wpvp by flagging on/off at will, that's not how it works
Why doesn't it work like that? You want to be flagged, yet you won't, because...?
Why would you need a glyph or whatever for something that is literally already in the game? You want to play flagged, then you can play flagged in pure vanilla. That's not like a turtle mode, you can't decrease the earned XP at will.
If you'd like to get any form of 'reward' for doing it as a 'challenge' with a glyph, that defeats the whole purpose of not involving PvE players: If there is something in the game, that can be earned only through this challenge, that will incite people to do it even if they do not like PvP at all. That would be back at 'forcing' PvE players to a PvP environment to get said rewards.
Maybe more battlegrounds would help for a little while, but I'm afraid the server isn't yet utilising all 3 BGs that are in game already, so a new one will only work for so long after the novelty fades.

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Mativh
Posts: 4

Re: Let's talk about PvP system!

Post by Mativh » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:43 pm

Mcnair wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:56 pm
Mativh wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:31 pm
permanently flagged, as nobody does wpvp by flagging on/off at will, that's not how it works
Why doesn't it work like that? You want to be flagged, yet you won't, because...?
Why would you need a glyph or whatever for something that is literally already in the game? You want to play flagged, then you can play flagged in pure vanilla. That's not like a turtle mode, you can't decrease the earned XP at will.
If you'd like to get any form of 'reward' for doing it as a 'challenge' with a glyph, that defeats the whole purpose of not involving PvE players: If there is something in the game, that can be earned only through this challenge, that will incite people to do it even if they do not like PvP at all. That would be back at 'forcing' PvE players to a PvP environment to get said rewards.
Maybe more battlegrounds would help for a little while, but I'm afraid the server isn't yet utilising all 3 BGs that are in game already, so a new one will only work for so long after the novelty fades.
I didn't say anything about rewards and a new bg is much more work than this challenge.
A big emphasis on this wpvp challenge being optional, it could exist on turtle wow while the server remains to be RPPVE.
So although this is all that you'd need to know as you clearly aren't trying to rebate me because you like wpvp, I'll dispel this dishonest argument:

There is a reason people don't do wpvp at all on pve servers, yet wpvp is very active on a pvp server. Imagine you could turn on/off the hostility of mobs in the world, or that Horde/Alliance NPCs couldn't attack each other even though they are in a war.
Try walking into Orgrimmar as an Alliance player, the Horde NPCs will attack you, because Alliance and Horde are in a war, the game is called war-craft. Faction conflict between alliance and horde is one of the core characteristic of the warcraft franchise, with ocassional peace break while fighting a common threat. You are roleplaying as a member of one of these factions.
There is a reason why you need a glyph of diplomacy in order to talk to the opposite faction, instead of being able to do so by basic.
Being able to attack each other the same way the NPCs of the factions can attack each other and players of the opposite faction makes the game more immersive.
One of the things that differentiate early wow from retail is that there was a much lesser gap between the player and the world, you are treated more like yet another being living on Azeroth, not like the champion in a theme park that is just there to serve you. It is a living breathing world of warcraft, that later became game of warcraft.
No new PvP systems are necessary, just a permanent wpvp challenge for those that think it's an important part of vanilla wow.
It seems like there are players that want to completely erase the faction conflict from wow because of some childhood trauma of being ganked by some noob. If wpvp (like on a pvp server) is not forced on anyone but a conscious choice for those that enjoy it, then there is literally no reason why a PvE player would oppose it.

Snigery
Posts: 28

Re: Let's talk about PvP system!

Post by Snigery » Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:31 am

Torta wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:12 pm
Greetings! Let's daydream a bit, turtles. If you'd like entirely different PvP system in Vanilla WoW, what it'd be?
Interesting way to pose this question...I am not a huge PvP player, but I have engaged in it over my time playing WoW.

Interesting story, I played a draenei arms warrior. I built myself up training first aid, herb/alch and always had some pots ready just in case. I kind of RP'd my character not just power leveling but making sure I was geared and what not. I had a few short skirmishes in which I dominated being able to sustain myself with draenei racial heal, and then the herbalism heal, and then pots.

Another scenario many years and expansions before that, I played this noob druid. I decided to venture into the barrens on the off chance I found someone. I was feeling bored. I spotted a warlock; oh ho ho a squishy prey. I believe I had my cat form and snuck up around them. I don't quite recall the outcome, I think they ran away before I could finish them off.

And more recently on another server I played a dwarf arms warrior and won a few lost a few. The ones I outright won were almost always met with some insanely maxed out toon arriving to patrol the entire region and corpse camp me.

I just wanted to share some good memories and scenarios I recall regarding PvP, specifically world PvP if that distinction matters. What I would like is a system that either encourages or rewards those sorts of experiences. PvP should not be players vexing players, but players versus players. Regarding world pvp it is best done if not abused and best done if players are on level ground. I don't really know what would work best; or better to say I don't know if I could ever have the answer as to the right pvp system.

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