Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Buntaro
Posts: 20

Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Buntaro » Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:27 pm

So I have tried to level a hardcore character and I found this experience fresh and exciting, even though I have never played any other game which is based on this principle of character perma-death before.

Yet as good that idea being applied to WoW is, it ultimately harms the server as a whole.

First, that's because it splits the server population. It mostly reduces your chance to get an instance party but also reduces your chances to do various elite quests in the open world. The stakes for HC characters are just too high to risk it.

And second, because the HC characters form a new economy which is totally separated from the economy of the non-HC characters. HC characters do not buy nor sell items on AH, and they can't trade with non-HC characters directly either.

So in the end, this creates the following situation. We have a server with a small population. Let's split it into two!

---------------
P.S. As I said, I tried to level a HC character. Because I'm kind of a control freak, I was as careful and as calculating as I usually am. Sadly despite my best effort this HC character died at a low level of 18 because of a simple random disconnect.

Now I do not argue that it was unfair or anything :) and I do not call to change the HC rules or anything. I wish best of luck to those who still soldier through everything including these random DCs.

But I decided for myself I won't level another HC character simply because of the randomness of that death. To me failing a HC attempt because of a random disconnect is like losing at gambling. And I never do gamble because it depends on luck and I, being a control freak, can't count on luck because it's something out of my control :)

Edit: separated my thoughts about the effects of HC gameplay on the server and my own personal impressions from playing a game with perma-death for the first time.
Last edited by Buntaro on Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Merikkinon
Posts: 185

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Merikkinon » Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:05 pm

Well, you make a good point that it does hurt the server in a certain way. That's hard to refute. It does give people another way to play WoW that is mainly singular (it is fun!), but that does in fact basically gimp much of the non-HC community at the same time. They'll be arguments as to 'well they need to group up better' and some other angles, but it's empty because a server of this size has economy problems to begin with, and challenges for running instances sparingly. Not, to me, very refutable. But it is the way we've gone for right now.

One way to deal with it is to make a HC 'season'.. and use it sparingly.

It's not a 'FRESH' server (barf), so like all servers, it will always be facing that issue. This one causes unique problems, surely.

Yet... it is still really fun.

No perfect answers.

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Starkobjekt
Posts: 57

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Starkobjekt » Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:59 pm

It does feel harder to find a group for dungeons but it was also hard before, is there a way to solve this now tho? I don't think so. The mode is fairly new and it will likely be less popular in time, shame that it brought down-sides but what to do-

The mode is not appealing to me and I never dc personally so I wouldn't see that as a problem either, I just don't find it fun enough to level a character and risk losing it.

Buntaro
Posts: 20

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Buntaro » Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:15 pm

Merikkinon wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:05 pm
...
One way to deal with it is to make a HC 'season'.. and use it sparingly.
...
No perfect answers.
This one -- if the HC seasons are made to be a recurring feature -- might actually be a great solution for two reasons:
  • it lessens the impact on the non-HC population;
  • it creates something to look forward to; i.e. just like a coming expansion, it creates expectations which attract people, and make them stay while waiting for the season; and even if they do not stay, it creates an incentive for them to return.

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Merikkinon
Posts: 185

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Merikkinon » Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:10 am

Perhaps each season could award a unique mount, unique tabard, etc. Something that is specific to that one season.

The more I think of this, I do not think HC should simply be an ongoing thing. I think time will show this to have been a hit on the community, and protracted, to actually diminish the life of the server.

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Velite
Posts: 41

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Velite » Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:37 pm

In some cases you are correct that it divides the community, however many people currently playing hardcore would not have been playing on the server to begin with. The only point of division is possibly newer players who didn't come for hardcore and decide to try it anyway, instead of just making a normal character.

At the endgame they become immortal so it does add to the endgame population though, assuming they survive...

Buntaro
Posts: 20

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Buntaro » Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:00 pm

Velite wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:37 pm
In some cases you are correct that it divides the community, however many people currently playing hardcore would not have been playing on the server to begin with. The only point of division is possibly newer players who didn't come for hardcore and decide to try it anyway, instead of just making a normal character.
Yes, that's correct, and while trying to level my own HC character, I have seen myself in the HC guild chat that many people's mindset is to only play in HC mode.

But the point of the discussion -- as I understand it -- isn't to argue for removal of the HC mode because it harms the server. It is about possible ways for it to improve the overall quality of the server.

Instead currently it rather artificially inflates the overall server population and that's it. I mean, it might as well have been a separate server instance where once you hit the top level, you can transfer back to the realm of the mortals :)
Velite wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:37 pm
At the endgame they become immortal so it does add to the endgame population though, assuming they survive...
OK, let's assume that the people who intend to stop gaining XP at 59 and stay HC forever are going to be a minority. Still the whole motto of the server is to do it slowly. Thus leveling here is a much bigger part of the game unlike those regular 15x rate servers.

For example I'm playing here since 2018 and all my characters are below lvl43. Maybe that's why I'm so much concerned about the midgame experience :D

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Merikkinon
Posts: 185

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Merikkinon » Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:23 pm

Mid-game experience. Never heard the term, but totally get it. I realize that I drop off servers, generally, because the mid-game stuffers so bad so many places. The entire game is important to me and I expect to enjoy it.

I suspect if HC stays a permanent thing, the community will dwindle down here because doing HC is really more about the unique challenge than anything special to Turtle. Primal WoW also did a HC (which was, imo, superior in challenge and reward) and that didn't save it (although there are many reasons a server tanks).

I think, above all, the devs need to get and keep a good read on what is going on with the conventional playing community in light of HC mode. And respond accordingly.

Too early to tell, but already there are effects, positive and negative.

Fizzeek
Posts: 49

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Fizzeek » Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:55 am

Merikkinon wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:23 pm
Primal WoW also did a HC (which was, imo, superior in challenge and reward)
I'm curious how other servers are doing/did it, what was different there?

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Merikkinon
Posts: 185

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Merikkinon » Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:27 pm

In their case (granted, it was WotLK server), a player could use the AH or mail or trade. However, they could only arm with white/grey gear. Ever. And ofc, one death & out (or ever armed with any stat gear and OUT). I think it was 'Ironman' or some title at 80, but also a choice of Zulaman Tiger or some other super-rare that was held back just for HC. It was simple, but 80 levels of non-magical (stat) gear was tough. Simple process, but deceptively hard. And there was some troll who decided to go for it without ANY gear - punching his way to the title (didn't get it, I don't think). My point was, there were people who played Primal (which DIED) who did regular content, and those doing HC. And it did split the community, into loners and group-oriented players (worse than any server is normally).

Lilyrose
Posts: 1

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Lilyrose » Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:21 am

Hi,

As many of us, I voted for an unplayable character on death before the release of Hardocre mode. But now, I'm not sure it was the best idea.

If players where kick from <Still Alive> and became regular players on death, maybe some of them would have continue there journey with classics players, adding some fresh blood for mid-game instances during the leveling.

Buntaro
Posts: 20

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Buntaro » Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:27 pm

Lilyrose wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:21 am
If players where kick from <Still Alive> and became regular players on death, maybe some of them would have continue there journey with classics players, adding some fresh blood for mid-game instances during the leveling.
Agree, that would be a good remedy. Speaking of myself, even though I only leveled my HC char to lvl18, I already grew fond of that character. And I would have probably kept playing it thus contributing to the server population rather than reducing it.

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Merikkinon
Posts: 185

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Merikkinon » Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:08 pm

Bingo. Powerful thoughts.

I am glad this thread was started, and people are weighing in with their thoughts. A wise change could improve not only the HC mode (and make it more enjoyable), but also support and enrich the community rather than strain it (as I think many of realize it does).

Torta and Crew need to be on top of this, and soon, when she gets back.

Following up on the last two comments and my commentary about Primal WoW's somewhat superior mode, if a player died in Ironman ('Hardcore') mode, he could continue, but just not even earn the rewards and recognition of Ironman. Though that server died, it was not the Ironman competition that was responsible. OTOH, I am not so sure the current dead/erased mode is even remotely wise for the health of this server.

I'd hate to see a gem of a server get tarnished like this.

Jekka
Posts: 12

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Jekka » Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:18 pm

Currently there’s over 850 living participants recorded on the leaderboards, and that’s almost two months into the challenge. While I’m sure a fair portion of those are alts it is a good sign that the harsh challenge isn’t impacting participation. So far the poll at the beginning is standing true.

Considering how socially positive the <Still Alive> guild is, I’d mostly owe that to the retention of players drying and restarting multiple times. Certainly changing the rule set to allow fallen players to continue on as normal characters will allow those social connections to persist (albeit in a non interactible sense).

I’d personally say it’s too early to see this mode as a detriment to the server, though I must sympathize will new players not leveling HC and trying to find groups and AH items. If the rules do change, nothing is stopping a HC player from deleting a character and starting over if they want. That compromise of the original rule set would be a small price to pay to have more players stick around afterwards.
“Nothing is lost. Nothing is forgotten. It was in the blood, the flesh. And now, it is forever.” - Prophet of Hakkar The Soulflayer

Buntaro
Posts: 20

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Buntaro » Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:08 pm

Jekka wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:18 pm
Considering how socially positive the <Still Alive> guild is, I’d mostly owe that to the retention of players drying and restarting multiple times. Certainly changing the rule set to allow fallen players to continue on as normal characters will allow those social connections to persist (albeit in a non interactible sense).
Yes. That's one of the things I'm going to miss after failing my own HC attempt. And currently one of the reasons which in my opinion further separates the HC players from the regular ones. Instead, I would love to find a way to join these two communities, not further the separation between them.

The feeling of being special and the title at the end of the road should be enough. History teaches that segregation is dangerous, and integration is preferable instead.
Merikkinon wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:08 pm
if a player died in Ironman ('Hardcore') mode, he could continue, but just not even earn the rewards and recognition of Ironman
I just thought that in the case the failed HC characters can continue as regular ones there's little reason to not start every new character as an HC char.

In other words, this change if implemented will also have some effects which might not be instantly obvious and which should be thought of beforehand if we care.
Merikkinon wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:08 pm
I'd hate to see a gem of a server get tarnished like this.
Agree. I consider Turtle WoW to be a very special one and personally, I'm writing here not because there's a reason to whine but because there's a reason to care.

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