Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

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Mantigora
Posts: 83

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Mantigora » Sat May 01, 2021 8:14 pm

I just chime in to say that I like that this is being dicussed and the option of staying alive instead of <Still Alive> and continue seems attractive to me. I have not played a HC toon, but if this would be in effect I would certainly give it a go.

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Merikkinon
Posts: 185

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Merikkinon » Sat May 01, 2021 8:54 pm

"There's a reason to care."

Amen. And in the private server scene these days, I would say that is RARE.

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Rvindvnce
Posts: 28

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Rvindvnce » Sun May 02, 2021 9:43 am

The problem is not HC mode, it's that the rest of the server needs a total rethinking. It just doesn't work and not enjoyable many times.
Elites are broken, dungeons are broken, the world is infested with long aggro mobs chain pulling with 3-4 others.
It should me much easier for a regular player, it's not 2005.
At the moment it's like mobs (incl elites) are 5 levels higher stats (aggro, hit, crit) than they should.
Morladim and Stitches should be much weaker.
Caves and houses are not explorable due to fast respawns and mob density. I don't know who did the placement but it only makes people quit playing here.
All in all it hurts the server.
I wouldn't recommend this server to my friends, despite all the good changes.

Buntaro
Posts: 20

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Buntaro » Sun May 02, 2021 11:26 am

Rvindvnce wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 9:43 am
The problem is not HC mode, it's that the rest of the server needs a total rethinking. It just doesn't work and not enjoyable many times.
Elites are broken, dungeons are broken, the world is infested with long aggro mobs chain pulling with 3-4 others.
It should me much easier for a regular player, it's not 2005.
Isn't it a contradiction to introduce a Hardcore mode and at the same time make the game easier overall? :D

In my experience the mob density, their difficulty, and respawn rate are about fine, are about what I would expect. Heck, the Defias Pillagers were known for their difficulty even after the 2.0 nerf and had to be dealt with carefully.

The only exception to that I can name are the rare mobs. It was expected by the game designers that only a small share of people will ever see them. But here if a rare exists, you are almost guaranteed to meet them. Take for example the Frostmane Hold in Dun Morogh. You can count on meeting Great Father Arctikus in the cave. On retail I didn't even knew he existed.
Rvindvnce wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 9:43 am
Caves and houses are not explorable due to fast respawns and mob density. I don't know who did the placement but it only makes people quit playing here.
The caves and houses were always a danger to explore. You were never expected to be waltzing through them. The rule that you must always press forward, you can't stop except to drink/eat and it's gonna be a pain to recover if you die deep inside a cave I learned on retail. It was still true to an extent when I left retail during WotLK.
Rvindvnce wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 9:43 am
It should me much easier for a regular player, it's not 2005.
Certainly it is not 2005. Yet making the game easier will contradict the intent to make the game pace slower which is what Turtle WoW is known for. Take it slow, 'mon :)

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Rvindvnce
Posts: 28

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Rvindvnce » Sun May 02, 2021 3:33 pm

Buntaro wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 11:26 am
...
Hardcore should be difficult as a lone marathon, not because playing normal is difficult itself.
The mob density is not okay, because there are fields of mobs you can't even pass by.
Please stop telling that nothing should be changed, because it only makes people walk away.
I respect the work but I don't see a reason to keep doing the work if no one is around because of these basic f-ckups.
The whole point of adding more casual quests and items is to make people spend more time in the game.
If the world is hostile, and all I feel is being annoyed by grey mobs dazing me as I try to pass by, I very often question why I keep playing this... At least I am going through HC mode, but ordinary players see no purpose, especially if dungeons, raiding and elites are so broken against player.

Buntaro
Posts: 20

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Buntaro » Mon May 03, 2021 4:31 pm

Rvindvnce wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 3:33 pm
Hardcore should be difficult as a lone marathon, not because playing normal is difficult itself.
The mob density is not okay, because there are fields of mobs you can't even pass by.
Please stop telling that nothing should be changed, because it only makes people walk away.
Playing normal shouldn't be a walking simulator either. Sorry but making the game easier will also make people walk away. And not because of "no change" mentality, but because when there's no challenge, there's no incentive to keep playing.
Rvindvnce wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 3:33 pm
At least I am going through HC mode, but ordinary players see no purpose, especially if dungeons, raiding and elites are so broken against player.
To be honest, I don't understand why do you think that the World of Warcraft is broken as it is; why it should be changed to make it friendlier to those people who consider it hostile. In my opinion it is supposed to be this way, and if people love it, they love it for what it is.

Now excuse me, I'm off to write a petition to introduce PvP combat in Animal Crossing ;)

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Rvindvnce
Posts: 28

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Rvindvnce » Mon May 03, 2021 5:44 pm

Buntaro wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 4:31 pm

Playing normal shouldn't be a walking simulator either. Sorry but making the game easier will also make people walk away. And not because of "no change" mentality, but because when there's no challenge, there's no incentive to keep playing.
Most people never ever even reach 60.
They don't even have any fun in most dungeons - because it's hard and toxic.
This is not fun.

Raids probably should be challenging, not regular dungeons you go in with friends having a beer or two.
But even raids should allow stuff like leeroy jenkins, not wiping people before even reaching the entrance...

All in all, most people should be able to hit 60 no problem and dungeons should be much easier.

I need to make clear, I don't say here that there should be higher drops etc.
Just make it fair, closer to later expansions, and more people will play - as this server has a friendly direction.
It should be all possible and engaging for your regular friends who want to chill, not some basement dwellers who don't care about pservers anyway.

Fizzeek
Posts: 49

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Fizzeek » Mon May 03, 2021 11:28 pm

It seems to me like you need a different server.

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Afaslizo
Posts: 8

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Afaslizo » Tue May 04, 2021 12:38 am

As a player who plays exclusively on HC approx a month now (Aponivi, last char was Niaarlaak) I am glad for HC mode as it is like some kind of drug. Since I know every Horde quest in game I know what I can and what I can not do and even then I can be done in by elites, rares or overconfidence. While I hate that disconnects, glitches and combat bugs can end HC rather unfairly the community makes it a unique experience I have not yet encountered elsewhere (and I played on a vast assortment of servers). It even gave me the motivation to level on a somewhat vanilla server (Turtle is more of course) which I would normally never do as I think that BC mechanical-wise is the far superior version of the core game in a refined manner and I vividly remembered my not-fun experience as a holy priest even over a decade later.

HC is great and I see myself leveling maybe another char if I get a druid to the end. Tents and farming breaks as well as the exp-range-increase for quests certainly help. At the moment nothing needs to be changed about it.

Axoc
Posts: 69

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Axoc » Tue May 04, 2021 4:53 am

Rvindvnce wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 9:43 am
I don't know who did the placement but it only makes people quit playing here.
Blizzard did it. Specific to the topics you mentioned, this server is blizzlike. Why does it matter what the current year is?

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Unangwata
Posts: 279

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Unangwata » Tue May 04, 2021 12:12 pm

Buntaro wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:27 pm

P.S. As I said, I tried to level a HC character. Because I'm kind of a control freak, I was as careful and as calculating as I usually am. Sadly despite my best effort this HC character died at a low level of 18 because of a simple random disconnect.

Now I do not argue that it was unfair or anything :) and I do not call to change the HC rules or anything. I wish best of luck to those who still soldier through everything including these random DCs.

But I decided for myself I won't level another HC character simply because of the randomness of that death. To me failing a HC attempt because of a random disconnect is like losing at gambling. And I never do gamble because it depends on luck and I, being a control freak, can't count on luck because it's something out of my control :)

Edit: separated my thoughts about the effects of HC gameplay on the server and my own personal impressions from playing a game with perma-death for the first time.
Yeah, I kinda talked about it before hardcore started but nobody listened. I suggested "wounded" status instead of perma death, where you have to wait some days before playing again with that character, or anything would be good instead of perma death in reality of crashes and disconnects.
But devs just said "it's your choice" and keep their hands clean in case it happens.

I didn't even start the challenge.

All looks fine for many but that's until they score crash or dc..lol

Buntaro
Posts: 20

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Buntaro » Tue May 04, 2021 2:42 pm

Afaslizo wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 12:38 am
As a player who plays exclusively on HC...

HC is great and I see myself leveling maybe another char if I get a druid to the end. Tents and farming breaks as well as the exp-range-increase for quests certainly help. At the moment nothing needs to be changed about it.
Well, for HC players like you who otherwise wouldn't be even playing here at all, nothing should be changed indeed. But I was talking about the picture from the point of view of a regular player.

For us, the current state means we see less (much less) people to make a dungeon party with, we see less offer and demand on AH.

Paradoxically, by creating a new and exciting play mode (it is exciting indeed), the devs also created a serious barrier for the new players on the realm. They can level up as HC and thus play solo all the way to 60 -- or they can level up as a regular character, and also play essentially solo.

The scale of the problem is quite serious in my opinion. Just the other day I was at the tent party at the Arena, and for 10 people from <Still Alive> you had 1 or 2 people from other guilds. It seems, within a short time the server population will consist of two groups -- max level characters and characters below lvl 20 -- with almost nobody in-between. In this case the optimal strategy would be to level up to 60 as quick as possible, thus only amplifying the issue.

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Rvindvnce
Posts: 28

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Rvindvnce » Wed May 05, 2021 8:44 am

Buntaro wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 2:42 pm
It seems, within a short time the server population will consist of two groups -- max level characters and characters below lvl 20 -- with almost nobody in-between. In this case the optimal strategy would be to level up to 60 as quick as possible, thus only amplifying the issue.
Because the leveling here sucks ass. It's not fun. I don't want to run around, as mobs of my level have unfair advantage. Mobs even 1 level above can kill you in a common streak of 3-4 misses, resisting spells. While mob 1 level below is just as strong as you.

Again, you can't just run around and chill here, unless you are lvl 60. That's the problem.
I wanted to level a bank alt along with HC main, but unfair combat etc make me sad to think about that.

Buntaro
Posts: 20

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Buntaro » Wed May 05, 2021 9:16 am

Rvindvnce wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 8:44 am
Because the leveling here sucks ass. It's not fun. I don't want to run around, as mobs of my level have unfair advantage. Mobs even 1 level above can kill you in a common streak of 3-4 misses, resisting spells. While mob 1 level below is just as strong as you.
...
I wanted to level a bank alt along with HC main, but unfair combat etc make me sad to think about that.
Funny thing, I'm also leveling my bank character right now, it's a Gnome rogue slightly above lvl10 and I don't have the issues you are talking about. I usually can take two mobs of my level though I always prefer to avoid such cases.

---------

To be perfectly honest, I know one place where I too am frustrated about the experience. That's the custom quest Pumpkin Thieves in Elwynn Forest.

The Gnolls there are in camps of 5 or 6 mobs, linked 2x or even 3x. Even if not actually linked, they are mostly static and thus don't walk away from their friends so it's impossible to pull them apart. These Gnoll camps are quite near to each other. To make things worse the overall area is patrolled by wolves of the same level.

So you pull a Gnoll on the edge of the area. He comes at you with a friend. As you fight them, a patrolling wolf appears from behind a tree. A deadly place indeed! As if this wasn't enough, you need to gather 20 (!!!) pumpkins from the ground in these camps, and like a third of them turn to be squished i.e. do not count.

The entire quest experience is highly frustrating crying_turtle

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Afaslizo
Posts: 8

Re: Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

Post by Afaslizo » Wed May 05, 2021 4:59 pm

Buntaro wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 2:42 pm
Afaslizo wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 12:38 am
As a player who plays exclusively on HC...

HC is great and I see myself leveling maybe another char if I get a druid to the end. Tents and farming breaks as well as the exp-range-increase for quests certainly help. At the moment nothing needs to be changed about it.
Well, for HC players like you who otherwise wouldn't be even playing here at all, nothing should be changed indeed. But I was talking about the picture from the point of view of a regular player.

For us, the current state means we see less (much less) people to make a dungeon party with, we see less offer and demand on AH.

Paradoxically, by creating a new and exciting play mode (it is exciting indeed), the devs also created a serious barrier for the new players on the realm. They can level up as HC and thus play solo all the way to 60 -- or they can level up as a regular character, and also play essentially solo.

The scale of the problem is quite serious in my opinion. Just the other day I was at the tent party at the Arena, and for 10 people from <Still Alive> you had 1 or 2 people from other guilds. It seems, within a short time the server population will consist of two groups -- max level characters and characters below lvl 20 -- with almost nobody in-between. In this case the optimal strategy would be to level up to 60 as quick as possible, thus only amplifying the issue.
I got a normal HE warrior as well and even if I do not play him at the moment I will play him another time. I just paused leveling him to do the HC challenge when it came up.

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