Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

[Rvindvnce]

Funny thing, I'm also leveling my bank character right now, it's a Gnome rogue slightly above lvl10 and I don't have the issues you are talking about. I usually can take two mobs of my level though I always prefer to avoid such cases.

Mark my words then

[Cointusk]

Anyone who does HC as their main toon is just askin for trouble. This challenge is best suited for alts you don't mind losing. This mode is a personal challenge through and through, only getting out what you risk to put in.

The separation of the leveling pop is unfortunate but I'd figure if HC mode didn't exist, there wouldn't be the recent rise of new players regardless. Fortunately the HC guild is very friendly and the other guilds out there are always recruiting. If any HC dies and still wants to stick around, they have plenty of opportunity for community with the other guilds.

Heck returning players who want to lv normally can start another guild called <Still Alive Rehab> to stay in touch with one another. Can even make funny advertising on world chat whenever a HC toon dies: "Have you fallen and cant get up? No worries we're here for YOU!".

[Buntaro]

I got a normal HE warrior as well ... I just paused leveling him to do the HC challenge when it came up.

Well that was my point. It seems many people have paused their regular regular characters and instead switched to the HC challenge. Those caught somewhere between lvl1 and lvl60 are suffering from that right now.

It is my opinion, that the balance between the regular play and the HC challenge is heavily shifted towards the latter. And that this not only attracts new people but also alienates the existing ones.

It's like as if the devs have introduced a new class and gave it some new fancy and powerful abilities which clearly outshine the abilities of the existing classes. The player base again will be split into those who are happy to try the new shiny toy, and those who were already happy but now feel ignored and forgotten.

This new class can even attract new people, but in this case you are essentially exchanging the previously loyal players to newcomers who might leave as easy as they have joined. To ignore a regular customer to attract a random passer-by is not a solid strategy.

And this is why you try to find a balance between the new features and the existing ones.

I usually can take two mobs of my level though I always prefer to avoid such cases.

Mark my words then

Hm, then I suppose there's an issue of expectations. For me, this level of difficulty is what I expect from this game. For you, it is clearly not.

[Rvindvnce]

Hm, then I suppose there's an issue of expectations. For me, this level of difficulty is what I expect from this game. For you, it is clearly not.

The difference is, I see the data and know what it means.
And you have your emotions and delusions.

[Buntaro]

Hm, then I suppose there's an issue of expectations. For me, this level of difficulty is what I expect from this game. For you, it is clearly not.

The difference is, I see the data and know what it means.
And you have your emotions and delusions.

That's quite a puzzling answer. Care to explain what data are you talking about?

[Afaslizo]

Well that was my point. It seems many people have paused their regular regular characters and instead switched to the HC challenge. Those caught somewhere between lvl1 and lvl60 are suffering from that right now.

It is my opinion, that the balance between the regular play and the HC challenge is heavily shifted towards the latter. And that this not only attracts new people but also alienates the existing ones.

It's like as if the devs have introduced a new class and gave it some new fancy and powerful abilities which clearly outshine the abilities of the existing classes. The player base again will be split into those who are happy to try the new shiny toy, and those who were already happy but now feel ignored and forgotten.

This new class can even attract new people, but in this case you are essentially exchanging the previously loyal players to newcomers who might leave as easy as they have joined. To ignore a regular customer to attract a random passer-by is not a solid strategy.

And this is why you try to find a balance between the new features and the existing ones.

Actually that argument falls flat as there are players who only play inside their respective guilds be it for the companionship or roleplay reasons. HC is a gameplay enforced guild play with free entry. There is no difference between the both kind of people as they both might not want to play with you.

[Buntaro]

Actually that argument falls flat as there are players who only play inside their respective guilds be it for the companionship or roleplay reasons. HC is a gameplay enforced guild play with free entry. There is no difference between the both kind of people as they both might not want to play with you.

I have covered that point in another comment:

Instead currently it rather artificially inflates the overall server population and that's it. I mean, it might as well have been a separate server instance where once you hit the top level, you can transfer back to the realm of the mortals :)

[Rvindvnce]

Hm, then I suppose there's an issue of expectations. For me, this level of difficulty is what I expect from this game. For you, it is clearly not.

The difference is, I see the data and know what it means.
And you have your emotions and delusions.

That's quite a puzzling answer. Care to explain what data are you talking about?

Ever looked at the combat log, for green and orange mobs?

[Fizzeek]

What does it say? What SHOULD it say? You don't make a compelling argument.

[Merikkinon]

Dear lord...

GUYs, you took this troll's bait and let him redirect the thread topic into his THIRD thread (and yes, now he clearly OWNS this thread).

The subject is about HC model as it currently stands. Please stick to it. Ignore the troll who keeps dying to lvl 1 boars.

[Merikkinon]

I'm not so sure he shouldn't be banned from the forum. At least a warning. He is spamming the hell out of this place.

[Ravielsk]

The problem with HC is partly with the population. The number of mobs and their respawn timers(assuming they are based on how they were in retail) were made for large quantities of players constantly killing them. Essentially under normal circumstances most mob groups should never have been fully spawned as players are constantly pruning them.
This of course does not work here due to lower population numbers. This also incidentally plays into how hardcore the HC mode really is.
In a fully populated realm it would be normal to stumble upon other players to form groups with or just receive a casual heal when you get swarmed by mobs. This again works only sometimes here, especially when HC players cannot team up with regulat players.

I would not suggest re-imagining the HC mode or re-balancing the server but rather switch the HC from just a "personal challenge" to more of a trade off situation where it increases your exp gained or drop rates or something that serves as a bonus for the entire duration of a play-through but means you cannot die.

[Gheor]

We currently are quite happy with what Hardcore turned out to be, and frankly we haven't heard of a modification from our entire Hardcore community, we thank you for speaking your mind up and hope you will still enjoy the experience.

[Buntaro]

We currently are quite happy with what Hardcore turned out to be, and frankly we haven't heard of a modification from our entire Hardcore community, we thank you for speaking your mind up and hope you will still enjoy the experience.

Well, it might be a perfect experience for Hardcore community, but this thread was mostly concerned with the experience of the rest of the server. And to be perfectly honest, I no longer feel any admiration to the members of <Still Alive>, rather the opposite.

Can't say about everyone around me, but I feel like this segregation is not what a small server should be striving for.

[Joy]

I agree with Buntaro.

Lately I've seen many old players leave. A frequent reason is too many adverse changes, too many bugs, and too much frustration.

Turtle's community was the best I've encountered anywhere. Building a good community takes a long time. Reconstituting it does too.

I do not understand the rationale on which recent decisions have been made. The double XP event was like a hammer, smashing the community. It splintered; normal players and raiders. Mortal mode hit it again; raiders, mortal, and normal players - all playing parallel games on the same content with minimal interaction.

That seems remote from Turtle's original concept of slow and steady, questing and levelling, which offered room for roleplaying and immersion.

The Turtle staff responds they are satisfied with the development, so one must assume that the outcome reflects the intention. Perhaps it's a question me loving what Turtle WoW was and the staff shifting the server's core concept to something else.

The custom content aside, the server is beginning to look much like other servers I've tried. Tastes differ and some will applaud this. I personally find it regrettable.

Like others I know, I still log on to my account, but only to stay in touch and chat with friends.

I wonder what will happen once Blizzard's new classic expansion launches, the current raiders finish the final raid content, and the novelty of the mortal mode wears off.

Best wishes and hopes,
Joy

[Goodwater]

I do not understand the rationale on which recent decisions have been made. The double XP event was like a hammer, smashing the community. It splintered; normal players and raiders.

Wait, they had a double xp event? When and why? Seems extremely out of place for a "take it slow and steady" kind of server.

[Gheor]

I do not understand the rationale on which recent decisions have been made. The double XP event was like a hammer, smashing the community. It splintered; normal players and raiders.

Wait, they had a double xp event? When and why? Seems extremely out of place for a "take it slow and steady" kind of server.

We had an Open House Event, last year in August for a weekend as far as I recall when the rates were x2 instead of X1.

[Gheor]

I agree with Buntaro.

Lately I've seen many old players leave. A frequent reason is too many adverse changes, too many bugs, and too much frustration.

Turtle's community was the best I've encountered anywhere. Building a good community takes a long time. Reconstituting it does too.

I do not understand the rationale on which recent decisions have been made. The double XP event was like a hammer, smashing the community. It splintered; normal players and raiders. Mortal mode hit it again; raiders, mortal, and normal players - all playing parallel games on the same content with minimal interaction.

That seems remote from Turtle's original concept of slow and steady, questing and levelling, which offered room for roleplaying and immersion.

The Turtle staff responds they are satisfied with the development, so one must assume that the outcome reflects the intention. Perhaps it's a question me loving what Turtle WoW was and the staff shifting the server's core concept to something else.

The custom content aside, the server is beginning to look much like other servers I've tried. Tastes differ and some will applaud this. I personally find it regrettable.

Like others I know, I still log on to my account, but only to stay in touch and chat with friends.

I wonder what will happen once Blizzard's new classic expansion launches, the current raiders finish the final raid content, and the novelty of the mortal mode wears off.

Best wishes and hopes,
Joy

Hi there, I joined this server as a normal player in March when the pandemic hit.
I have always seen this server as a possibility to do things your own style and play it how you want to play it.

I've seen these splits you're talking about months before those two things you mentioned.
Thunder Ale Brewing Co. was the only Raiding Guild, fully dedicated to raiding, so for me those were the Raiders.
What I observed was that we had:

Raiders, RPers, Levelers and PvPers.
Only Hardcores were added to that.

My content focuses the leveling experience, questing and building a story, I don't understand what makes you think this server has shifted way but we are different people so different opinions.
I hope you change your mind and stick around.

[Sandtusk]

Hitting 300+ pop fairly consecutively with all these “dire” changes going on. Hyjal merge should bring even more our way.

Has there ever been a poll on the number of HC players that stick around after death to lv normally?

If people want to use twow for just HC then let em, same for pvp, rp, raiding, etc. Either way if it really turns into a issue the devs will deal with it.

[Goodwater]

We had an Open House Event, last year in August for a weekend as far as I recall when the rates were x2 instead of X1.

Oh, I see what you mean. I was thinking more along the lines of other pservers having regular dxp events and so on.

[Mantigora]

I can only agree with the above.
One year ago, there was already a change going, but lately it seems the Turtle-feel is all but gone.
Only a few in a sea of "import" .

[Merikkinon]

So I’ve been trying to get into dungeons (as a NA player). It’s been fruitless, except for a short-handed attempt the other evening. Even trying during the morning and mid-day on the weekends (which is like early afternoon server-time), it’s been painful. So I did a little research on players lvl 10-20 and found 20 players online in <Still Alive> and 25 players online who were NOT in the HC guild. Basically, the server pop in that sample is split between the two. Well no damn wonder it’s nearly impossible to get runs going through world chat.

Yeah, the situation on Turtle has become dire for the regular, progression-focused player. This led me back to the ‘HC is a bad idea’ thread.

As a player who plays exclusively on HC approx a month now (Aponivi, last char was Niaarlaak) I am glad for HC mode as it is like some kind of drug. .... While I hate that disconnects, glitches and combat bugs can end HC rather unfairly, the community makes it a unique experience I have not yet encountered elsewhere (and I played on a vast assortment of servers). .... HC is great and I see myself leveling maybe another char if I get a druid to the end. Tents and farming breaks as well as the exp-range-increase for quests certainly help. At the moment nothing needs to be changed about it.

A drug. Yep. That is it. It’s just the newest incarnation of how WoW can be a drug for people and absorb them. In this case, it absorbs them away from the regular progression community. (More later on the state of progression on any pserver and the normative life cycle)

As a player who plays exclusively on HC...

HC is great and I see myself leveling maybe another char if I get a druid to the end. Tents and farming breaks as well as the exp-range-increase for quests certainly help. At the moment nothing needs to be changed about it.

Well, for HC players like you who otherwise wouldn't be even playing here at all, nothing should be changed indeed. But I was talking about the picture from the point of view of a regular player.

For us, the current state means we see less (much less) people to make a dungeon party with, we see less offer and demand on AH.

Paradoxically, by creating a new and exciting play mode (it is exciting indeed), the devs also created a serious barrier for the new players on the realm. They can level up as HC and thus play solo all the way to 60 -- or they can level up as a regular character, and also play essentially solo.

The scale of the problem is quite serious in my opinion. Just the other day I was at the tent party at the Arena, and for 10 people from <Still Alive> you had 1 or 2 people from other guilds. It seems, within a short time the server population will consist of two groups -- max level characters and characters below lvl 20 -- with almost nobody in-between. In this case the optimal strategy would be to level up to 60 as quick as possible, thus only amplifying the issue.

Buntaro makes the point - it is a barrier to the regular community. A shackle, really. And on a server with a fairly small population. What? We’re going to attract players here to sample the unique content only to find they have a super-small community of people who are doing regular content? Gimme a break. That makes no sense. “Come to Turtle for our HC challenge!!” (which is not hard - it is about surviving disconnects and bugs like transports, people). And as Buntaro said, the scale of the problem is serious. Borne out by my quick survey of people online. I am going to keep doing it at various time intervals and days. I seriously expect to see more data that supports the server is deeply split.

I got a normal HE warrior as well ... I just paused leveling him to do the HC challenge when it came up.

Well that was my point. It seems many people have paused their regular regular characters and instead switched to the HC challenge. Those caught somewhere between lvl1 and lvl60 are suffering from that right now.

It is my opinion, that the balance between the regular play and the HC challenge is heavily shifted towards the latter. And that this not only attracts new people but also alienates the existing ones.

It's like as if the devs have introduced a new class and gave it some new fancy and powerful abilities which clearly outshine the abilities of the existing classes. The player base again will be split into those who are happy to try the new shiny toy, and those who were already happy but now feel ignored and forgotten.

This new class can even attract new people, but in this case you are essentially exchanging the previously loyal players to newcomers who might leave as easy as they have joined. To ignore a regular customer to attract a random passer-by is not a solid strategy.

I think it’s fair to say the balance is probably split rather evenly, rather than ‘heavily’. OK, but still, that is horrendous for a part of the community that requires joint interplay (team work), rather than a solo mode (HC). It is crippling. I imagine there are players coming here for HC, but you’re losing regular progression-focused players overall. And the HC players will leave after the ‘drug’ wears off, because there is even less of a progression community to go back to re-engage.

We currently are quite happy with what Hardcore turned out to be, and frankly we haven't heard of a modification from our entire Hardcore community, we thank you for speaking your mind up and hope you will still enjoy the experience.

You’re not going to hear hardly anything from people who are hunkered down in their solo world. What is your expectation there? If anything, they want the server to be more stable with less disconnects and so forth - the things that would risk their survival. Understandable. But that doesn’t help the overall server - just the individual in their little individual world (“but hey, we CHAT in the guild”).. Puh-leeze.

I agree with Buntaro.

Lately I've seen many old players leave. A frequent reason is too many adverse changes, too many bugs, and too much frustration.

Turtle's community was the best I've encountered anywhere. Building a good community takes a long time. Reconstituting it does too.

I do not understand the rationale on which recent decisions have been made. The double XP event was like a hammer, smashing the community. It splintered; normal players and raiders. Mortal mode hit it again; raiders, mortal, and normal players - all playing parallel games on the same content with minimal interaction.

That seems remote from Turtle's original concept of slow and steady, questing and levelling, which offered room for roleplaying and immersion.

The Turtle staff responds they are satisfied with the development, so one must assume that the outcome reflects the intention. Perhaps it's a question me loving what Turtle WoW was and the staff shifting the server's core concept to something else.

The custom content aside, the server is beginning to look much like other servers I've tried. Tastes differ and some will applaud this. I personally find it regrettable.

Like others I know, I still log on to my account, but only to stay in touch and chat with friends.

I wonder what will happen once Blizzard's new classic expansion launches, the current raiders finish the final raid content, and the novelty of the mortal mode wears off.

Best wishes and hopes,
Joy

Personally, it is clear to me that the focus of the team is to create a unique server with many aspects that make it unique. What I think they have deeply underestimated is the impact that the HC effect will have on the server over the long run.

PREDICTION: by end of 2021, this server will be very stagnant, except for HC players, who will rotate in and out from the pserver world.

I hate to make that prediction, but I am seeing the long run here and how a non-cohesive view of Turtle ‘modes of play’ will globally hit the server population. In truth, this is a population small enough that it needs to be treated sensitively and with a real good idea on how to grow and sustain it.

HC is nothing more than a new challenge for Old Turtles to stay here for awhile. With the errant thought that they will go back to their ‘mains’ at some point when they are satiated. But I think they’ll find the progression community even smaller at that point. Yes, there is a problem with pservers in that at some point, unless they are strongly progressing into abundant new content, the population of end-gamers gets bored and either complains or wanders off. No server has been able to ultimately rectify this. In fact, the Blizzard model respected and accommodated that in that they knew they had to keep pumping new content in on a timely basis, or people would drift off and potentially disconnect permanently. Well, and it created a crap ton of sales. But still. They are not mutually exclusive goals.

I can only agree with the above.
One year ago, there was already a change going, but lately it seems the Turtle-feel is all but gone.
Only a few in a sea of "import" .

I can honestly say that in the 4 mos that I’ve been here, there isn’t much of a ‘feel’ to Turtle other than the general lack of abusive speech in chat and the globally decent behavior in-game. Well, and Torta is great and a few mods are very responsive and helpful.. That's is admittedly a huge positive.

Truthfully, that actually is big and refreshing, yes, but other than that (which is to a degree about an absence of ‘bad’), there isn’t much of a feel to ‘Turtle’ at all. In fact, there is NOT much of a feel to Turtle game-wise, because almost half the souls are wrapped up in their little ’solo drug’ world. There is no point for me to continue any of my 10 chars here, despite pumping over $300 USD into this server over the last few months. It’s pointless other than to level up through the game world w/o any real expectation of doing dungeons and multi-player content. I love leveling, but part of that fun is the dungeons. NOT raids - why all of a sudden be multi-player at that point?!? It's senseless. And sorry, HC mode is not worth the frustration of being whacked, not for gameplay, but for technical reasons. I know what the 'drug' feels like - I have two HC chars who have not died - but it ain't that good.

So in that, I realize this server has not much of a future with current perspective and approaches on how to craft and build the community. They are not fighting a 2-front war here. No.. It’s like they are fighting a 3- or 4-front war.

And they will lose.

[Kir2run4fun]

After reading the thread, I'll just pretty much repeat myself from the ingame global chat from sometime back then :
HC was clearly a mistake, being done on a background of such a small pop. Fresh newcomers who came for it and left (for various reasons) = are basically lost, the server got nothing from them overall. That *forced* split to normal at level cap also looked like a weak attempt to better things out.
A radical way of "resolving" the issue by bug/abuse-killing HC toons at Arena/while levelling in the world - is bannable here, and we have already seen some examples. And while somehow it *is* effective, it's still a dead-end way, since the mode is one of the server's forward-line things. Despite my pretty strong rhethorics about the mode at some times, I never really was a supporter of such a path.
Concluding the above, the staff simply couldn't allow themselves to add the thing, there wasn't nearly enough of a playerbase for that. Granted this server would probably never hit a 1k "live" cap, those in charge really have to *think through* of things in a long run, granted they still aim for that.