Hardcore: a Great Idea that is a Bad Idea

[Buntaro]

So I have tried to level a hardcore character and I found this experience fresh and exciting, even though I have never played any other game which is based on this principle of character perma-death before.

Yet as good that idea being applied to WoW is, it ultimately harms the server as a whole.

First, that's because it splits the server population. It mostly reduces your chance to get an instance party but also reduces your chances to do various elite quests in the open world. The stakes for HC characters are just too high to risk it.

And second, because the HC characters form a new economy which is totally separated from the economy of the non-HC characters. HC characters do not buy nor sell items on AH, and they can't trade with non-HC characters directly either.

So in the end, this creates the following situation. We have a server with a small population. Let's split it into two!

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P.S. As I said, I tried to level a HC character. Because I'm kind of a control freak, I was as careful and as calculating as I usually am. Sadly despite my best effort this HC character died at a low level of 18 because of a simple random disconnect.

Now I do not argue that it was unfair or anything :) and I do not call to change the HC rules or anything. I wish best of luck to those who still soldier through everything including these random DCs.

But I decided for myself I won't level another HC character simply because of the randomness of that death. To me failing a HC attempt because of a random disconnect is like losing at gambling. And I never do gamble because it depends on luck and I, being a control freak, can't count on luck because it's something out of my control :)

Edit: separated my thoughts about the effects of HC gameplay on the server and my own personal impressions from playing a game with perma-death for the first time.

[Merikkinon]

Well, you make a good point that it does hurt the server in a certain way. That's hard to refute. It does give people another way to play WoW that is mainly singular (it is fun!), but that does in fact basically gimp much of the non-HC community at the same time. They'll be arguments as to 'well they need to group up better' and some other angles, but it's empty because a server of this size has economy problems to begin with, and challenges for running instances sparingly. Not, to me, very refutable. But it is the way we've gone for right now.

One way to deal with it is to make a HC 'season'.. and use it sparingly.

It's not a 'FRESH' server (barf), so like all servers, it will always be facing that issue. This one causes unique problems, surely.

Yet... it is still really fun.

No perfect answers.

[Starkobjekt]

It does feel harder to find a group for dungeons but it was also hard before, is there a way to solve this now tho? I don't think so. The mode is fairly new and it will likely be less popular in time, shame that it brought down-sides but what to do-

The mode is not appealing to me and I never dc personally so I wouldn't see that as a problem either, I just don't find it fun enough to level a character and risk losing it.

[Buntaro]

...
One way to deal with it is to make a HC 'season'.. and use it sparingly.
...
No perfect answers.

This one -- if the HC seasons are made to be a recurring feature -- might actually be a great solution for two reasons:

• it lessens the impact on the non-HC population;

• it creates something to look forward to; i.e. just like a coming expansion, it creates expectations which attract people, and make them stay while waiting for the season; and even if they do not stay, it creates an incentive for them to return.

[Merikkinon]

Perhaps each season could award a unique mount, unique tabard, etc. Something that is specific to that one season.

The more I think of this, I do not think HC should simply be an ongoing thing. I think time will show this to have been a hit on the community, and protracted, to actually diminish the life of the server.

[Velite]

In some cases you are correct that it divides the community, however many people currently playing hardcore would not have been playing on the server to begin with. The only point of division is possibly newer players who didn't come for hardcore and decide to try it anyway, instead of just making a normal character.

At the endgame they become immortal so it does add to the endgame population though, assuming they survive...

[Buntaro]

In some cases you are correct that it divides the community, however many people currently playing hardcore would not have been playing on the server to begin with. The only point of division is possibly newer players who didn't come for hardcore and decide to try it anyway, instead of just making a normal character.

Yes, that's correct, and while trying to level my own HC character, I have seen myself in the HC guild chat that many people's mindset is to only play in HC mode.

But the point of the discussion -- as I understand it -- isn't to argue for removal of the HC mode because it harms the server. It is about possible ways for it to improve the overall quality of the server.

Instead currently it rather artificially inflates the overall server population and that's it. I mean, it might as well have been a separate server instance where once you hit the top level, you can transfer back to the realm of the mortals :)

At the endgame they become immortal so it does add to the endgame population though, assuming they survive...

OK, let's assume that the people who intend to stop gaining XP at 59 and stay HC forever are going to be a minority. Still the whole motto of the server is to do it slowly. Thus leveling here is a much bigger part of the game unlike those regular 15x rate servers.

For example I'm playing here since 2018 and all my characters are below lvl43. Maybe that's why I'm so much concerned about the midgame experience :D

[Merikkinon]

Mid-game experience. Never heard the term, but totally get it. I realize that I drop off servers, generally, because the mid-game stuffers so bad so many places. The entire game is important to me and I expect to enjoy it.

I suspect if HC stays a permanent thing, the community will dwindle down here because doing HC is really more about the unique challenge than anything special to Turtle. Primal WoW also did a HC (which was, imo, superior in challenge and reward) and that didn't save it (although there are many reasons a server tanks).

I think, above all, the devs need to get and keep a good read on what is going on with the conventional playing community in light of HC mode. And respond accordingly.

Too early to tell, but already there are effects, positive and negative.

[Fizzeek]

Primal WoW also did a HC (which was, imo, superior in challenge and reward)

I'm curious how other servers are doing/did it, what was different there?

[Merikkinon]

In their case (granted, it was WotLK server), a player could use the AH or mail or trade. However, they could only arm with white/grey gear. Ever. And ofc, one death & out (or ever armed with any stat gear and OUT). I think it was 'Ironman' or some title at 80, but also a choice of Zulaman Tiger or some other super-rare that was held back just for HC. It was simple, but 80 levels of non-magical (stat) gear was tough. Simple process, but deceptively hard. And there was some troll who decided to go for it without ANY gear - punching his way to the title (didn't get it, I don't think). My point was, there were people who played Primal (which DIED) who did regular content, and those doing HC. And it did split the community, into loners and group-oriented players (worse than any server is normally).

[Lilyrose]

Hi,

As many of us, I voted for an unplayable character on death before the release of Hardocre mode. But now, I'm not sure it was the best idea.

If players where kick from <Still Alive> and became regular players on death, maybe some of them would have continue there journey with classics players, adding some fresh blood for mid-game instances during the leveling.

[Buntaro]

If players where kick from <Still Alive> and became regular players on death, maybe some of them would have continue there journey with classics players, adding some fresh blood for mid-game instances during the leveling.

Agree, that would be a good remedy. Speaking of myself, even though I only leveled my HC char to lvl18, I already grew fond of that character. And I would have probably kept playing it thus contributing to the server population rather than reducing it.

[Merikkinon]

Bingo. Powerful thoughts.

I am glad this thread was started, and people are weighing in with their thoughts. A wise change could improve not only the HC mode (and make it more enjoyable), but also support and enrich the community rather than strain it (as I think many of realize it does).

Torta and Crew need to be on top of this, and soon, when she gets back.

Following up on the last two comments and my commentary about Primal WoW's somewhat superior mode, if a player died in Ironman ('Hardcore') mode, he could continue, but just not even earn the rewards and recognition of Ironman. Though that server died, it was not the Ironman competition that was responsible. OTOH, I am not so sure the current dead/erased mode is even remotely wise for the health of this server.

I'd hate to see a gem of a server get tarnished like this.

[Jekka]

Currently there’s over 850 living participants recorded on the leaderboards, and that’s almost two months into the challenge. While I’m sure a fair portion of those are alts it is a good sign that the harsh challenge isn’t impacting participation. So far the poll at the beginning is standing true.

Considering how socially positive the <Still Alive> guild is, I’d mostly owe that to the retention of players drying and restarting multiple times. Certainly changing the rule set to allow fallen players to continue on as normal characters will allow those social connections to persist (albeit in a non interactible sense).

I’d personally say it’s too early to see this mode as a detriment to the server, though I must sympathize will new players not leveling HC and trying to find groups and AH items. If the rules do change, nothing is stopping a HC player from deleting a character and starting over if they want. That compromise of the original rule set would be a small price to pay to have more players stick around afterwards.

[Buntaro]

Considering how socially positive the <Still Alive> guild is, I’d mostly owe that to the retention of players drying and restarting multiple times. Certainly changing the rule set to allow fallen players to continue on as normal characters will allow those social connections to persist (albeit in a non interactible sense).

Yes. That's one of the things I'm going to miss after failing my own HC attempt. And currently one of the reasons which in my opinion further separates the HC players from the regular ones. Instead, I would love to find a way to join these two communities, not further the separation between them.

The feeling of being special and the title at the end of the road should be enough. History teaches that segregation is dangerous, and integration is preferable instead.

if a player died in Ironman ('Hardcore') mode, he could continue, but just not even earn the rewards and recognition of Ironman

I just thought that in the case the failed HC characters can continue as regular ones there's little reason to not start every new character as an HC char.

In other words, this change if implemented will also have some effects which might not be instantly obvious and which should be thought of beforehand if we care.

I'd hate to see a gem of a server get tarnished like this.

Agree. I consider Turtle WoW to be a very special one and personally, I'm writing here not because there's a reason to whine but because there's a reason to care.

[Mantigora]

I just chime in to say that I like that this is being dicussed and the option of staying alive instead of <Still Alive> and continue seems attractive to me. I have not played a HC toon, but if this would be in effect I would certainly give it a go.

[Merikkinon]

"There's a reason to care."

Amen. And in the private server scene these days, I would say that is RARE.

[Rvindvnce]

The problem is not HC mode, it's that the rest of the server needs a total rethinking. It just doesn't work and not enjoyable many times.
Elites are broken, dungeons are broken, the world is infested with long aggro mobs chain pulling with 3-4 others.
It should me much easier for a regular player, it's not 2005.
At the moment it's like mobs (incl elites) are 5 levels higher stats (aggro, hit, crit) than they should.
Morladim and Stitches should be much weaker.
Caves and houses are not explorable due to fast respawns and mob density. I don't know who did the placement but it only makes people quit playing here.
All in all it hurts the server.
I wouldn't recommend this server to my friends, despite all the good changes.

[Buntaro]

The problem is not HC mode, it's that the rest of the server needs a total rethinking. It just doesn't work and not enjoyable many times.
Elites are broken, dungeons are broken, the world is infested with long aggro mobs chain pulling with 3-4 others.
It should me much easier for a regular player, it's not 2005.

Isn't it a contradiction to introduce a Hardcore mode and at the same time make the game easier overall? :D

In my experience the mob density, their difficulty, and respawn rate are about fine, are about what I would expect. Heck, the Defias Pillagers were known for their difficulty even after the 2.0 nerf and had to be dealt with carefully.

The only exception to that I can name are the rare mobs. It was expected by the game designers that only a small share of people will ever see them. But here if a rare exists, you are almost guaranteed to meet them. Take for example the Frostmane Hold in Dun Morogh. You can count on meeting Great Father Arctikus in the cave. On retail I didn't even knew he existed.

Caves and houses are not explorable due to fast respawns and mob density. I don't know who did the placement but it only makes people quit playing here.

The caves and houses were always a danger to explore. You were never expected to be waltzing through them. The rule that you must always press forward, you can't stop except to drink/eat and it's gonna be a pain to recover if you die deep inside a cave I learned on retail. It was still true to an extent when I left retail during WotLK.

It should me much easier for a regular player, it's not 2005.

Certainly it is not 2005. Yet making the game easier will contradict the intent to make the game pace slower which is what Turtle WoW is known for. Take it slow, 'mon :)

[Rvindvnce]

...

Hardcore should be difficult as a lone marathon, not because playing normal is difficult itself.
The mob density is not okay, because there are fields of mobs you can't even pass by.
Please stop telling that nothing should be changed, because it only makes people walk away.
I respect the work but I don't see a reason to keep doing the work if no one is around because of these basic f-ckups.
The whole point of adding more casual quests and items is to make people spend more time in the game.
If the world is hostile, and all I feel is being annoyed by grey mobs dazing me as I try to pass by, I very often question why I keep playing this... At least I am going through HC mode, but ordinary players see no purpose, especially if dungeons, raiding and elites are so broken against player.

[Buntaro]

Hardcore should be difficult as a lone marathon, not because playing normal is difficult itself.
The mob density is not okay, because there are fields of mobs you can't even pass by.
Please stop telling that nothing should be changed, because it only makes people walk away.

Playing normal shouldn't be a walking simulator either. Sorry but making the game easier will also make people walk away. And not because of "no change" mentality, but because when there's no challenge, there's no incentive to keep playing.

At least I am going through HC mode, but ordinary players see no purpose, especially if dungeons, raiding and elites are so broken against player.

To be honest, I don't understand why do you think that the World of Warcraft is broken as it is; why it should be changed to make it friendlier to those people who consider it hostile. In my opinion it is supposed to be this way, and if people love it, they love it for what it is.

Now excuse me, I'm off to write a petition to introduce PvP combat in Animal Crossing ;)

[Rvindvnce]

Playing normal shouldn't be a walking simulator either. Sorry but making the game easier will also make people walk away. And not because of "no change" mentality, but because when there's no challenge, there's no incentive to keep playing.

Most people never ever even reach 60.
They don't even have any fun in most dungeons - because it's hard and toxic.
This is not fun.

Raids probably should be challenging, not regular dungeons you go in with friends having a beer or two.
But even raids should allow stuff like leeroy jenkins, not wiping people before even reaching the entrance...

All in all, most people should be able to hit 60 no problem and dungeons should be much easier.

I need to make clear, I don't say here that there should be higher drops etc.
Just make it fair, closer to later expansions, and more people will play - as this server has a friendly direction.
It should be all possible and engaging for your regular friends who want to chill, not some basement dwellers who don't care about pservers anyway.

[Fizzeek]

It seems to me like you need a different server.

[Afaslizo]

As a player who plays exclusively on HC approx a month now (Aponivi, last char was Niaarlaak) I am glad for HC mode as it is like some kind of drug. Since I know every Horde quest in game I know what I can and what I can not do and even then I can be done in by elites, rares or overconfidence. While I hate that disconnects, glitches and combat bugs can end HC rather unfairly the community makes it a unique experience I have not yet encountered elsewhere (and I played on a vast assortment of servers). It even gave me the motivation to level on a somewhat vanilla server (Turtle is more of course) which I would normally never do as I think that BC mechanical-wise is the far superior version of the core game in a refined manner and I vividly remembered my not-fun experience as a holy priest even over a decade later.

HC is great and I see myself leveling maybe another char if I get a druid to the end. Tents and farming breaks as well as the exp-range-increase for quests certainly help. At the moment nothing needs to be changed about it.

[Axoc]

I don't know who did the placement but it only makes people quit playing here.

Blizzard did it. Specific to the topics you mentioned, this server is blizzlike. Why does it matter what the current year is?

[Unangwata]

P.S. As I said, I tried to level a HC character. Because I'm kind of a control freak, I was as careful and as calculating as I usually am. Sadly despite my best effort this HC character died at a low level of 18 because of a simple random disconnect.

Now I do not argue that it was unfair or anything :) and I do not call to change the HC rules or anything. I wish best of luck to those who still soldier through everything including these random DCs.

But I decided for myself I won't level another HC character simply because of the randomness of that death. To me failing a HC attempt because of a random disconnect is like losing at gambling. And I never do gamble because it depends on luck and I, being a control freak, can't count on luck because it's something out of my control :)

Edit: separated my thoughts about the effects of HC gameplay on the server and my own personal impressions from playing a game with perma-death for the first time.

Yeah, I kinda talked about it before hardcore started but nobody listened. I suggested "wounded" status instead of perma death, where you have to wait some days before playing again with that character, or anything would be good instead of perma death in reality of crashes and disconnects.
But devs just said "it's your choice" and keep their hands clean in case it happens.

I didn't even start the challenge.

All looks fine for many but that's until they score crash or dc..lol

[Buntaro]

As a player who plays exclusively on HC...

HC is great and I see myself leveling maybe another char if I get a druid to the end. Tents and farming breaks as well as the exp-range-increase for quests certainly help. At the moment nothing needs to be changed about it.

Well, for HC players like you who otherwise wouldn't be even playing here at all, nothing should be changed indeed. But I was talking about the picture from the point of view of a regular player.

For us, the current state means we see less (much less) people to make a dungeon party with, we see less offer and demand on AH.

Paradoxically, by creating a new and exciting play mode (it is exciting indeed), the devs also created a serious barrier for the new players on the realm. They can level up as HC and thus play solo all the way to 60 -- or they can level up as a regular character, and also play essentially solo.

The scale of the problem is quite serious in my opinion. Just the other day I was at the tent party at the Arena, and for 10 people from <Still Alive> you had 1 or 2 people from other guilds. It seems, within a short time the server population will consist of two groups -- max level characters and characters below lvl 20 -- with almost nobody in-between. In this case the optimal strategy would be to level up to 60 as quick as possible, thus only amplifying the issue.

[Rvindvnce]

It seems, within a short time the server population will consist of two groups -- max level characters and characters below lvl 20 -- with almost nobody in-between. In this case the optimal strategy would be to level up to 60 as quick as possible, thus only amplifying the issue.

Because the leveling here sucks ass. It's not fun. I don't want to run around, as mobs of my level have unfair advantage. Mobs even 1 level above can kill you in a common streak of 3-4 misses, resisting spells. While mob 1 level below is just as strong as you.

Again, you can't just run around and chill here, unless you are lvl 60. That's the problem.
I wanted to level a bank alt along with HC main, but unfair combat etc make me sad to think about that.

[Buntaro]

Because the leveling here sucks ass. It's not fun. I don't want to run around, as mobs of my level have unfair advantage. Mobs even 1 level above can kill you in a common streak of 3-4 misses, resisting spells. While mob 1 level below is just as strong as you.
...
I wanted to level a bank alt along with HC main, but unfair combat etc make me sad to think about that.

Funny thing, I'm also leveling my bank character right now, it's a Gnome rogue slightly above lvl10 and I don't have the issues you are talking about. I usually can take two mobs of my level though I always prefer to avoid such cases.

---------

To be perfectly honest, I know one place where I too am frustrated about the experience. That's the custom quest Pumpkin Thieves in Elwynn Forest.

The Gnolls there are in camps of 5 or 6 mobs, linked 2x or even 3x. Even if not actually linked, they are mostly static and thus don't walk away from their friends so it's impossible to pull them apart. These Gnoll camps are quite near to each other. To make things worse the overall area is patrolled by wolves of the same level.

So you pull a Gnoll on the edge of the area. He comes at you with a friend. As you fight them, a patrolling wolf appears from behind a tree. A deadly place indeed! As if this wasn't enough, you need to gather 20 (!!!) pumpkins from the ground in these camps, and like a third of them turn to be squished i.e. do not count.

The entire quest experience is highly frustrating

[Afaslizo]

As a player who plays exclusively on HC...

HC is great and I see myself leveling maybe another char if I get a druid to the end. Tents and farming breaks as well as the exp-range-increase for quests certainly help. At the moment nothing needs to be changed about it.

Well, for HC players like you who otherwise wouldn't be even playing here at all, nothing should be changed indeed. But I was talking about the picture from the point of view of a regular player.

For us, the current state means we see less (much less) people to make a dungeon party with, we see less offer and demand on AH.

Paradoxically, by creating a new and exciting play mode (it is exciting indeed), the devs also created a serious barrier for the new players on the realm. They can level up as HC and thus play solo all the way to 60 -- or they can level up as a regular character, and also play essentially solo.

The scale of the problem is quite serious in my opinion. Just the other day I was at the tent party at the Arena, and for 10 people from <Still Alive> you had 1 or 2 people from other guilds. It seems, within a short time the server population will consist of two groups -- max level characters and characters below lvl 20 -- with almost nobody in-between. In this case the optimal strategy would be to level up to 60 as quick as possible, thus only amplifying the issue.

I got a normal HE warrior as well and even if I do not play him at the moment I will play him another time. I just paused leveling him to do the HC challenge when it came up.

[Rvindvnce]

Funny thing, I'm also leveling my bank character right now, it's a Gnome rogue slightly above lvl10 and I don't have the issues you are talking about. I usually can take two mobs of my level though I always prefer to avoid such cases.

Mark my words then

[Cointusk]

Anyone who does HC as their main toon is just askin for trouble. This challenge is best suited for alts you don't mind losing. This mode is a personal challenge through and through, only getting out what you risk to put in.

The separation of the leveling pop is unfortunate but I'd figure if HC mode didn't exist, there wouldn't be the recent rise of new players regardless. Fortunately the HC guild is very friendly and the other guilds out there are always recruiting. If any HC dies and still wants to stick around, they have plenty of opportunity for community with the other guilds.

Heck returning players who want to lv normally can start another guild called <Still Alive Rehab> to stay in touch with one another. Can even make funny advertising on world chat whenever a HC toon dies: "Have you fallen and cant get up? No worries we're here for YOU!".

[Buntaro]

I got a normal HE warrior as well ... I just paused leveling him to do the HC challenge when it came up.

Well that was my point. It seems many people have paused their regular regular characters and instead switched to the HC challenge. Those caught somewhere between lvl1 and lvl60 are suffering from that right now.

It is my opinion, that the balance between the regular play and the HC challenge is heavily shifted towards the latter. And that this not only attracts new people but also alienates the existing ones.

It's like as if the devs have introduced a new class and gave it some new fancy and powerful abilities which clearly outshine the abilities of the existing classes. The player base again will be split into those who are happy to try the new shiny toy, and those who were already happy but now feel ignored and forgotten.

This new class can even attract new people, but in this case you are essentially exchanging the previously loyal players to newcomers who might leave as easy as they have joined. To ignore a regular customer to attract a random passer-by is not a solid strategy.

And this is why you try to find a balance between the new features and the existing ones.

I usually can take two mobs of my level though I always prefer to avoid such cases.

Mark my words then

Hm, then I suppose there's an issue of expectations. For me, this level of difficulty is what I expect from this game. For you, it is clearly not.

[Rvindvnce]

Hm, then I suppose there's an issue of expectations. For me, this level of difficulty is what I expect from this game. For you, it is clearly not.

The difference is, I see the data and know what it means.
And you have your emotions and delusions.

[Buntaro]

Hm, then I suppose there's an issue of expectations. For me, this level of difficulty is what I expect from this game. For you, it is clearly not.

The difference is, I see the data and know what it means.
And you have your emotions and delusions.

That's quite a puzzling answer. Care to explain what data are you talking about?