Raid Loot System for 2020

[Gifted]

Based on both public conversations during raids as well as some private conversations with raiders it feels like there's still some debate over the current raid loot system. I've encourage raiders who have concerns over the current system to start a public conversation about our raid loot system, but not much has surfaced.

So, being the guy that tends to handle raid loot and also the guy who tries to help keep things organized and running smoothly I thought I'd get the ball rolling with this post. I know some of you prefer Discord for this sort of thing, but given not all our raiders are using Discord and everyone who has a Turtle WoW account can access these discussion boards I decided to host the conversation here.

So, a few things first...

1. We are NOT changing the current loot system until 2020
2. This thread is a conversation to see which way the wind is blowing
3. IF we're going to change the loot system there will be a vote of some kind

So that being said, this is your opportunity to have your voice heard!

If you like or hate the current loot system then feel free to express that in a reply to this thread. If you want to propose a different loot system than the current loot system then please make your proposal in a reply to this thread. It would be very helpful if you provide as much detail about your proposed loot system as possible and maybe provide some examples for clarity.

If you're going to propose a new loot system I'd appreciate if you could address some of the following...

1. How does your system affect new raiders vs veteran raiders?
2. How does your loot system deal with profession recipes when they drop?
3. If your loot system uses 'Best In Slot' then who decides what is BiS for everyone?
4. If your loot system uses points (like DKP) then who will track everyone's points?
5. If your loot system uses attendance or gear to determine priorities who tracks that?
6. If your loot system uses multiple rolls for gear will it slow down loot distribution / raid progression?
7. If your loot system uses priorities for loot who will decide those priorities?

If your answer to all these questions is, "Gifted will do it!", then I'd like you to consider how much is already on my raiding 'plate'. I get the raid started/organized, set raid group compositions for ideal performance, handle master looting, dual box 2 characters, distribute mage food/water, buff the raid with mage+druid buffs, provide flasks/elixirs/potions to the raid, get people to join Discord, and help negotiate disputes.

I'm not against changing the loot system, but it needs to be one I'm capable of enforcing. It may come as a shock to some of you, but I don't know the BiS gear for every talent build of every class on the server.

With all of that in mind I really do want to hear your opinions!

Finally, if you like the current loot system be sure to post that here as well. All too often these kinds of conversations are dominated by those who want things changed and the people who like the current system don't say anything.

~Gifted

[Pfwg]

Edd here.

I'm happy with how the loot system works right now, and it's important to me that Gifted is happy with it also, since they are the one having the enforce it and deal with any disputes.

If people want a different loot system, I am also fine with that, but it needs to be very clear, so there's no confusion even from non-native english speakers. More importantly, if the loot system is to be changed, it is of the utmost importance that whoever runs the new system, be it Gifted or anyone else, that they are reliable and will turn up every week.

We're lucky to have someone as reliable as Gifted who's willing to sort the loot, and if he doesn't want to run a new system (which he'd be 100% entitled to not run), we need someone as reliable. Most of the players that have issues with the loot system aren't turning up every week so they would be terrible candidates to run any new system.

These are my thoughts, my apologies for not having a strong view on which way the loot should be done, but I think the meta-analysis of who should run any new system is worth talking about. It wouldn't be fair for us to switch to a new system and force Gifted to run it.

[Kainnee]

I've had my best experiences with a Loot Council, but you need a bunch of very active and very reliable Class Leaders for that to work.

Since I'm not raiding crossfaction I wish you well with whatever system you choose anyway :).

[Mercyheal86]

As far as I'm concerned, the old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies here. Can RNG with /roll suck a bag dicks at times? Yes it surely can, we've all experienced it, but it's not something we are all unaccustomed to.

From what I've experienced in the few raids I've been a part of the way loot is handled is fair; it is not different than what we all experience when we are in dungeons with the automated group loot system rolling need or greed on items--sometimes we win and sometimes we don't, but even if we've spent a significant amount of time in a dungeon and gotten nothing from it that has not deterred any of us to the point that we do not go back to try our luck again. Fortune favors the consistent and persistent, not just the bold.

Not everyone has the time to show up for every single raid--people have responsibilities and obligations outside of the game that take priority, we all know this--and I do not particularly think it would be a good idea to base a loot system purely off of attendance or some other sort of "seniority" standard (fuck outta here with that shit!) because you're only as strong as your weakest link, and your weakest link may not have all the time they would like to devote to raiding as others.

Everyone gets a shot at something with the current system irregardless of any external or internal factors; if it drops and your class is viable for it you get to roll on it. A simple, swift and sensible means of distribution--no need for debate and no time wasted.

We're a goddamned gaggle of different guilds and factions thrust together striving for success and reward, and no one is more important than the next--we all succeed and fail together, and we all share in the struggle and bounty of the endeavor every time we enter one of those hell-holes. For every piece of loot gained by one of our raiders we're that much closer to the glory we're all trying to achieve, a completed raid and well-geared team of raiders.

There's absolutely no need to complicate the distribution of loot as many other folks do and have done in the past--the fuckin raid is a test of patience and nerves enough as it is while we're all trying to learn to better work together as team to achieve victory--and we don't need any drama-inducing horseshit hampering our progression. Roll on some shit, get it or don't, congratulate the ones who win the loot, move the fuck on and get crackin to the completion of a raid.

Some of our raiders take on a humongous amount of toil and responsibility upon themselves to try and better bolster the raid team toward achieving success, and in my opinion a goddamn point system, and having to then keep track of said points for every single motherfucker--whenever they can show up--is just adding an unnecessary amount of obligation upon their shoulders that isn't at all required. Again, fuck outta here with that shit!

The standard, and the integral means of you getting your gear--that you've been dealing with for over a decade (most of us anyway)--is physically as well as in spirit implemented in the current method of distribution with the /roll system. I don't see you all storming the proverbial gates raising hell with the Dev Team about changing the group loot system because it's unfair--and we all know your whining would be in vain anyway even if you were that fuckin retarded--therefore, I cannot see any feasible reason to change the way we do things now, considering the fact it is basically the same fuckin way you already get gear outside of the raids.

If you don't like the way things are done now--tough fuckin shit--go forth and good luck starting your own goddamn raid team, and fuckin divvying out the loot in whatever manner you see fit to do so. We have a working means of dividing the spoils, and people are getting gear every raid--don't fuck it up with convoluted bullshit because you lost a /roll and your jimmies are fuckin rustled over 9000.

This has been my two cents. Take it as you will.

-- Much love. Gracemourn <3

[Naito]

*chuckles* Grace said it quite well and frankly. We are currently, as a raid team, split between many guilds and factions all coming together to pug a raid every week as a server in order to slowly progress further with our characters and for the server as a whole. As time progresses, new waves of raiders are coming and the raids grow stronger.

But ultimately, until a single Guild or faction is able to run raids themselves without resorting to pug members, the most fair loot system, is the one currently on the books. Need something, roll. You get one won item per run unless nobody else wants something that remains an upgrade. And the old school basic chivalry to give way on items that are only a tiny upgrade vs items that really matter to someone is left as a personal choice, that reflects individually on those who do or do not.

The system has worked through many wow expansions. Through countless dungeons. The only time it tends to be changed is when things are done with a preset and pre-planned group committed to progressing at the highest speed with requirements set and everything the group does set to maximize that purpose. We aren't in that situation. We are very accepting of anyone who wants to raid, we don't specify x amount of y class. We don't have set positions or responsibilities. We aren't working for the progression of a particular Guild or Team.

Thunder Ale as the organizing party benefits from the trash drops and de'd items as they deserve for organizing the raid and working hard to progress it. Rolls are the ultimate arbiter as they are random, everyone has equal chance when presented with a roll, and the limit of one item that others need per run hedges the bets against those who may be otherwise too lucky in a string of rolls.

We can do this.
- Knight Soryen.

[Qixel]

My only real suggestion would be to make it so rolls are clearly separated into 'need' and 'greed' (open to name suggestions in case need/greed is too base; perhaps 'main spec' and 'off spec'?). You'd be limited to one successful 'need' roll per raid, but greed rolls would be unlimited. The biggest reoccuring issue I've seen is people passing on upgrades because they don't want to lose their chance at something they want more if it drops later. We've literally sharded things because people are afraid to take them. Making it so you can roll 'greed' on an item that you want, but not overwhelmingly, and still 'need' roll the item you're dreaming of would stop the feel-bad mentality of passing on an upgrade 'in case'.

It's possible this system is basically already in place, but it's been really unclear, with people accepting a belt from trash because everyone else had it, then being told they cannot roll on a boss drop later.

So for example, boss 1 drops some priest pants. There's two priests in the raid. Priest 1 has the pants, priest 2 does not. Both priests want a sexy weapon that can drop from boss 3. Even though the pants would be nice for priest 2, they are unwilling to 'waste their roll' just in case the weapon drops from boss 3. The pants get disenchanted. Boss 3 does not drop the weapon. Priest 2 gave up an upgrade for a dream. Under the need-greed system, priest 2 would wait until the need roll period ends, and rolls greed. They can still roll for the weapon if it drops later.

Answering the checklist:
How does your system affect new raiders vs veteran raiders? It will likely boost new player drops in the short term, because they will not feel discouraged from rolling on a less desirable piece. Veteran raiders who have been refraining for the same reason will like-wise be more willing to roll for the pieces they'd been skipping.
How does your loot system deal with profession recipes when they drop? I would not be changing the profession recipe drops. I feel that is a fair system as it is.
If your loot system uses 'Best In Slot' then who decides what is BiS for everyone? N/A
If your loot system uses points (like DKP) then who will track everyone's points? N/A
If your loot system uses attendance or gear to determine priorities who tracks that? N/A
If your loot system uses multiple rolls for gear will it slow down loot distribution / raid progression? It may slow it down a little, requiring two countdowns, but I do not feel that it would be overall impactful.
If your loot system uses priorities for loot who will decide those priorities? N/A

[Gifted]

My only real suggestion would be to make it so rolls are clearly separated into 'need' and 'greed' (open to name suggestions in case need/greed is too base; perhaps 'main spec' and 'off spec'?). You'd be limited to one successful 'need' roll per raid, but greed rolls would be unlimited.

I agree that need/greed could be clearer. Usually for need rolls I just link the item and for greed rolls I link the item and say 'everyone roll'. But I haven't been 100% consistent, so we'll modify that for clarity.

The biggest reoccuring issue I've seen is people passing on upgrades because they don't want to lose their chance at something they want more if it drops later. We've literally sharded things because people are afraid to take them.

I'm baffled by this phenomenon as well. Raiders passing on a guaranteed upgrade for a later item that might not even drop was unexpected. I've master looted items to players (who wanted to pass on the item) just so they have it for potential set bonuses later rather than DE the item for shards we can't even use right now.

Honestly, I thought this would balance itself out with veteran raiders not needing to roll on common loot like BoE belts and bracers so new raiders don't have any competition. It's when new raiders pass on small upgrades like the BoE belts and bracers in hopes of getting the biggest upgrades off the last few bosses that the system gets screwed-up as they're now competing with veterans who only have 1 or 2 more upgrades available to them.

I don't have an easy solution for this...

~Gifted

[Pfwg]

Great posts from Soryen and Gracemourn there, thank you both for contributing.

From what I'm aware, the below quote is not strictly true. Thunder Ale collects the trash drop items such as the fiery and lava cores etc, but they aren't used strictly for Thunder Ale members, they are collected for the benefit of all raiders. I've personally been a beneficiary of those particular cores and so have many others, so I can 100% confirm these aren't sequestered after for Thunder Ale only; we all get to use that pool :)

Thunder Ale as the organizing party benefits from the trash drops and de'd items as they deserve for organizing the raid and working hard to progress it.