Raid Loot Distribution System

[Gifted]

In the interest of transparency we post our raid loot system on the Turtle WoW forums for all to see and comment on. We always welcome your feedback. We feel this is a reasonably fair loot system, but will re-evaluate it if/when any loot issues arise.

If you're curious what our loot distribution looks like you can view it online!

Loot Principles

• Everyone should have an equal chance at loot.
• Loot is a tool for progression, not a reward for raiding.

Loot Rules

• Only 1 BoP epic item per raid (main spec rolls only)
• Raid tanks take priority on tanking gear

Step-By-Step Loot Distribution

Here's a breakdown of our step-by-step loot distribution system.

1. Wait for all dead players to be rezzed (so healers are not distracted during loot distribution).
2. Link all loot the boss drops in raid chat so everyone can see and think about rolling or not.
3. Link a single item to be rolled on for 'main spec' as a raid warning.
4. Count down from 5...4...3...2...1... in raid chat to give everyone time to roll on the linked item.
5. Resolve any challenges or issues with the roll.
6. Distribute loot to the highest roll.
7. If nobody rolls for 'main spec', repeat steps 3-6 for an 'off spec' roll.
8. If nobody rolls for 'off spec', DE the item!

Congratulations! On to the next boss...

Grievance Process

As hard as we work to keep this system fair it's inevitable that someone might see it otherwise and wish to file a grievance (complaint). All grievances should go through the raid leaders.

Filing a grievance does not mean that loot will be re-distributed after the fact (only in extreme cases). Filing a grievance will result in the raid leadership looking over the current raid loot distribution system to see if any changes are necessary in light of the grievance.

Change Log

This section is a record of changes to the raid loot distribution system over time...

Oct 20, 2019 - Posted the original Raid Loot Distribution System so it's publicly available for everyone to see.
Oct 26, 2019 - Added raid tank priority rule (#4).
Feb 2nd, 2020 - Modified the 1 epic per raid to only apply to BoP items (BoE don't count).
Apr 23rd, 2020 - Changed rolls to 'main spec' and 'off spec' to better reflect current practice.

~Gifted

[Kazgrim]

If a person loses in a roll, he is allowed to roll on a next item?

[Sinrek]

There's everything seems ok, alas I have trouble with sticking together two parts here

2) Loot is a tool for progression...

and here

1) Only 1 epic item per raid.

[Chlothar]

Does "raid" in this context mean "group doing content in a specific time" or "raid as an instanced area" like molten core etc. To be more clear 1 epic per raid day/group or 1 epic in Mc 1 on thurthlu e.g.

[Gifted]

@Sinrek - Loot is a tool for progression / Only 1 epic per raid

In order to defeat boss encounters we need as many members of the raid group to SURVIVE the boss encounter for as long as possible. By spreading loot around to everyone in the raid we increase the survivability of the raid group as a whole. If we funneled all our epics to a single player then they'll probably survive boss encounters the longest, but if everyone else is dead it won't matter how many epics that one player has, the boss is going to squish them.

@Chlothar - One epic per raid group or one epic per raid instance (MC, ZG, Turtle Boss, etc...)

My intention was 1 epic per raid group regardless of the number of raid instances/bosses they choose to attempt. Again, the idea is to spread loot around as much as possible rather than create a scenario where a single player can get 3 epics in a single raid while other players get nothing.

Historical Note

In the past we didn't limit players to 1 epic per raid. We used more of an honor system, but we had players who already received 2 epics for a run rolling against other players for a 3rd epic in the same run (and winning that roll). It was upsetting a lot of players because some people would get 3 epics in a single day while others players got nothing.

Personally I don't want to enforce this rule. But it's painfully apparent that some players see purple pixels and immediately lose their minds. I've pointed out that in a single day of raiding we tend to average around 12 epic drops in a raid of roughly 30 people. That means more than half the players are going to walk away from the raid empty handed. The same day this was pointed out over Discord we still had players immediately rolling on a 2nd and 3rd epic piece after they had already won an epic piece of gear.

Personal Note

If your focus during raids is simply gear acquisition you're really missing out on the best part of what this game has to offer, building relationships with other players. Veteran raiders know that they might raid for 2 months straight without a single gear upgrade and then a month later they win a bunch of rolls and upgrade half their gear.

If you raid often enough you will eventually run out of gear upgrades. This is the point where players who focused on gear acquisition stop raiding. After all, what's the point of continuing if you have all the best gear? This is also the point where players who focused on building relationships with other players keep playing because they don't care about getting rewards for themselves, they want to help their friends get rewards.

Which kind of raider are you?

~Gifted

[Gifted]

If a person loses in a roll, he is allowed to roll on a next item?

Yes. You can keep rolling on epic loot until you win something.

~Gifted

[Sinrek]

So, let's say you have in theory 4 warriors in your raid.

Might Bracers drop and all warriors roll. Warrior 3 wins and puts them on.

Later on the Belt drops. Should all warriors roll now? What if Warrior 3 wins this roll?

[Gifted]

So, let's say you have in theory 4 warriors in your raid.

Might Bracers drop and all warriors roll. Warrior 3 wins and puts them on.

Later on the Belt drops. Should all warriors roll now? What if Warrior 3 wins this roll?

I'd point out the same as what I said above to the raid over Discord and apologize to Warrior 3 that he's not eligible for the belt because there's other warriors that haven't received any epics this run, then give the belt to the next highest warrior roll. If no other warriors needed the belt then he'd automatically get it =)

~Gifted

[Aurorae]

Very clearly laid out, nice :)

...although shouldn't there be an exception for the main tank automatically getting certain tanking pieces? I think that's generally understood, but it might be nice to have it be official.

[Gifted]

Very clearly laid out, nice :)

...although shouldn't there be an exception for the main tank automatically getting certain tanking pieces? I think that's generally understood, but it might be nice to have it be official.

Yes, it's understood among the raid tanks. We have several warriors, but they're mostly DPS warriors. Our current raid tank (Smultron) has most of the gear already from the first few bosses in MC. This is part of the 'gear is a tool for progression' philosophy. If any of our DPS warriors ever wanted to start tanking then they would get priority on gear, but most of them don't seem very interested at the moment.

~Gifted

[Chlothar]

I want to criticize one loot rule because in my view it`s unwise to open cloth loot only for cloth wearers etc. Why do i think so? That`s fairly easy. For some specs/classes the BIS gear pieces often have an armor type you actually deny from them.

You expect people to prepare for raids, including pre-bis gear. Which also often is not their most comfortable armor type. For holy paladins there is not a single pre bis piece that is plate armor, also the best non set healing pieces (which usually beat tier1 by far) are....surprise....non plate. Distributing loot like this makes sense in some cases but not in general. If i was a healer i would have already left the raid because the expectation of being limited to tier1 is utter crap. It`s slowing us down because it limits the performance and is atleast ny my point of view not fair.
The shaman tier1 is better designed for healing than the paladin set but still they can`t get some bis pieces from MC before e.g. druids get them.

That`s just my point of view, but i have been raiding classic for many many years and never had a loot system that limits certain specs like this.

Bashing ret paladins because of their low dps is one thing but making it this hard for holy paladins to get the good gear is counterproductive. I am mostly speaking as a paladin here but the problem also exists for other calsses specs. Playing on a server where we also nieche specs are welcome this loot distribution rule becomes even worse.

Chlothar of Goldshire

[Gifted]

I want to criticize one loot rule because in my view it`s unwise to open cloth loot only for cloth wearers etc.

That's a fair criticism of the rule.

The reason the rule exists is because the percentage of drops for each armor type (plate, mail, leather, cloth) was calculated to match the percentage of players that play a class of that armor type. So if 20% of classes can wear cloth then 20% of armor drops will be cloth.

If we open rolls for any armor type then some classes have a HUGE advantage over other classes for gear. The paladin is a great example. Instead of 20% of drops they could roll on 100% of drops, and that's not really fair either.

Another thing to consider is that if a cloth item is BiS for a holy paladin it will most likely be BiS for cloth healers as well (class-specific gear being the exception).

Also, if a cloth healing piece drops and all the cloth healers have it already and pass on the item then we do a second roll where holy paladins, resto shaman, and resto druids can all roll on it.

Finally, the BiS argument is being thrown at me a lot lately regarding loot distribution. If a holy paladin doesn't get their BiS cloth piece it's not punishing the paladin or hurting the raid. That piece is going to go to a cloth healer in the raid who will benefit from the item, thus benefiting the raid.

~Gifted

[Chlothar]

You say that e.g. plate wearers havea n advantage in terms of loot if they had the same chance to roll on cloth, leather etc. Having a closer look to the plate items that drop in MC you might understand my point, why would a healer go for these at all. ALSO he would be allowed to roll on them AFTER the dpsers and still these pieces don`t give them anything for their main spec. You literally take all armor slot loot from plate healers except the tier set. Waiting for all non plate healers/casters getting their loot to roll on the good stuff is a poor perspective for a dedicated raider, especially with a changing raid base.

Just make decicions which gear will be given to which role:
Healing gear -> All healers who want/need that item have the same right to roll on it
Tank gear -> all tanks who want/need have the same right to roll on it
DPS gear -> all DPSers who want it have the same right to roll on it.

I mean...i don`t really care i am nostly only raiding for fun and do not expect much and did not get a main spec item yet. I do only really need 1-2 items from MC. If they drop i will roll on them, if i am not allowed to roll on them i will find other things to spend my free evenings with. It`s as easy as that, for me. Maybe for others too, who knows.

[Chlothar]

Let me clarify it with another example:

X is a balance druid. His BiS gear is ofc Cloth, since there is no balance druid set designed in classic X has to count cloth spell dps gear for his built. With let`s say 1 dps cloth item drop per MC raid and about 5 mages and 5 locks in the raid X has to wait ATLEAST 11 weeks to get his first spell dps piece....IF NOT there will be new mages/locks joining the raid within that time.

X might be a good player out-dpsing the most other casters in the raid but still his chances to get something good are zero. What do you tell someone like X to make him not quit active raiding after 5 weeks of denying him loot?

[Gifted]

What do you tell someone like X to make him not quit active raiding after 5 weeks of denying him loot?

The rule exists because a priest healer threatened to quit raiding after a paladin rolled on cloth bracers and won. The priest had gone for 5 weeks without loot prior to that. What would you have said to them?

I'm not arguing with you Chlothar, neither the current loot system we have nor the one you're proposing is perfect. Whatever system we use, someone is going to take issue with it. The only reason we use the current system is because it's the one I'm willing to enforce. If everyone wants to change the loot system I'm 100% on board with it. But someone else will have to take over loot distribution...

...if i am not allowed to roll on them i will find other things to spend my free evenings with. It`s as easy as that, for me. Maybe for others too, who knows.

...as well as dealing with all the veiled threats from raiders who take issue with it.

I do think it's great that we're having this debate in public though. Raiders need to see that even experienced players like Chlothar and myself may not always agree about how raids and loot distribution are handled. But we both agree we want a system that's as 'fair' to everyone as possible.

~Gifted

[Xerron]

what I would do is, whenever something drops, the people who want that item links their current item, and based on the upgrade, we give it out
BUT there are some exceptions
fresh 60 in greens, no loot
you don't work on your gear, preraid bis, crafted, enchants, etc, no loot

something like, get the best gear, show some dedication, before you expect raid upgrades

and if two people have the same item to replace, then we can think about attendance or performance

OR

i really like how tanks have their own loot rules, maybe we can have some class officers deal with loot for healers / melee dps / spell dps

[Qixel]

I don't have the energy, experience, or intelligence to design a fair loot system, but I'll instead bring up a concern motivated almost entirely by selfishness on my part.

As I'm sure most people know, ever since we started Molten Core months ago, I've been aiming specifically for the Ancient Core Leather Gloves as they'd basically be my BiS for the foreseeable future. At first, with no rogues, I was the only one who would want them. As the weeks passed without a drop, rogues joined, but they didn't like daggers, so I was still safe. But now, over 15 weeks later, the gloves still have not dropped. Going in, my hope was they would drop before a dagger rogue reached 60, so I could get them unopposed because my rolls are weak. But it occurred to me a few days ago that, now that we have dagger rogues, I cannot get the gloves, because they are leather. If they were to drop this week, they would go to one of the new rogues, and then I'd have to wait potentially another 15 weeks for another drop, only to be unable to roll if another dagger rogue hits cap in that time.

So my concern is entirely selfish, but I figured I should bring it up even if I have nothing to contribute.

[Gifted]

I know one of the main concerns that has been shared in this discussion is from players pursuing BiS items that are not their primary armor type as well as gear for specs outside of their current raiding spec.

In last Sunday's MC raid Chlothar's plate-wearing DPS paladin won the Helm of the Lifegiver, after nobody rolled on it for the initial roll (when it was restricted to mail-wearing classes that are spec'ed to heal).

So players can get gear that's not their primary armor type and they can get gear that's for off-specs. I'm not saying it happens frequently, but it's not an impossibility either.

~Gifted

[Lunkdunk]

I am in favor of opening up loot to all who can wear it, the only requirement is that you are raiding with that spec.

The reason the rule exists is because the percentage of drops for each armor type (plate, mail, leather, cloth) was calculated to match the percentage of players that play a class of that armor type. So if 20% of classes can wear cloth then 20% of armor drops will be cloth.

Gifted, I tried to read more about the loot distribution being calculated according to the popularity of the class but i couldn't find anything. Do you have any links regarding this? To me it sounds reasonable when it comes to class-gear but take Salamander Scale Pants as an example. It's on bis-lists for resto shaman, holy paladin, resto druid. Is the droprate really increased from the number of rogues playing?
Resto druids benefit from this system since they get the roll-prio on both Wild Growth Spaulders and Salamander Scale Pants first - items that are on both resto shamans and holy pallies bis-lists.

Giving prio to classes that are intended to wear that type of armor will discourage some specs to raid. Maybe we should give it a vote next raid?

/Furryslayer

[Gifted]

I am in favor of opening up loot to all who can wear it, the only requirement is that you are raiding with that spec.

The reason the rule exists is because the percentage of drops for each armor type (plate, mail, leather, cloth) was calculated to match the percentage of players that play a class of that armor type. So if 20% of classes can wear cloth then 20% of armor drops will be cloth.

Gifted, I tried to read more about the loot distribution being calculated according to the popularity of the class but i couldn't find anything. Do you have any links regarding this?

So let's just look at a boss and their loot table. I randomly selected Lucifron since it's one of the earlier MC raid bosses. If we sort the loot by armor type you'll see the following:

• 4 cloth items (mage, priest, warlock)
• 3 leather items (druid, rogue)
• 2 mail items (shaman, hunter)
• 3 plate items (warrior, paladin)

Averaged out across multiple raid bosses the leather/mail/plate is about the same since they all have 2 classes that use that armor type and cloth is slightly higher due to having 3 classes that use that armor type. It doesn't have to do with how many of each classes are in the raid or how many exist on the server, it's just the averages to make gear availability attractive to all classes.

Giving prio to classes that are intended to wear that type of armor will discourage some specs to raid.

Opening it up so holy paladins can roll against priests for cloth gear when priests can't roll against paladins for leather, mail, or plate gear will discourage cloth specs to raid since they have so few gear options. Usually people's opinions on this fall along the lines of their character's armor type and what system is going to benefit them the most. So it makes sense that mail/plate classes want to roll on everything and leather/cloth classes want restrictions on armor rolls.

Here's how I see the two positions:

Restricted Armor Argument - I just want to have equal and fair access to my armor type, please don't reduce my access to gear by making me compete with other classes that already have fair access to their armor types! This might not be the optimal way to distribute loot, but it at least makes access to gear fair.

BiS Argument - I already have equal and fair access to my armor type, but I want access to MORE raid gear (BiS) at the expense of my fellow raiders (competing with them for their armor types). This is a more optimal way to distribute loot and it's worth the benefits to me personally even if access to loot becomes unfair to other raiders.

~Gifted

[Aurorae]

I was curious, so I hopped on over to itemization.info. Turns out there's only 3 plate wrist items with +healing on them in the game. (Sources: DM, ZG, and Naxx :p ) Doing a little further digging...

I'm defining "healing gear" as broadly as possible, aka any item with ANY of the following stats: +heal, MP5, int, spell crit, spell damage/healing, or spirit.

For a holy paladin in MC, that's essentially just the tier set and Magma Tempered Boots. Here's the list, total 10 items.

For a holy priest in MC, that's the tier set plus Manastorm Leggings, Mana Igniting Cord, and Robe of Volatile Power (plus Gloves of the Hypnotic Flame and Fireproof Cloak, but those drop off Rag, so we're not quite there yet). Here's the list, total 14 items.

In terms of sheer numbers, yes, the priest has more to roll on if they want to roll on those items, but those items are more for caster DPS anyway. (and Mana Igniting Cord benefits paladins substantially more than priests).

(sidenote: rdruids have 11 leather healing items to roll on, and r shammies have 14 mail healing items.)

Under a non-restricted system, it shakes out like this:
Paladins: 22 items, 13 non-tier
Shamans: 21 items, 12 non-tier
Druids: 16 items, 7 non-tier
Priests: 14 items, 5 non-tier

Anyway, after checking it out for myself, I think that the system works out okay. At least from my perspective as a healer. If we get someone playing a boomkin, maybe they will choose to roll for the Druid tier set but the cloth non-set pieces - and that'd be up to them and Gifted to discuss. The key part imo is that the second roll is open to everyone. The purples will always drop again; our whole raid healing team will have matching Wild Growth Spaulders eventually, or something even better.

...now, handing out Brutality Blade? Up to you, Gifted <3

[Chlothar]

Well i only laid down my view on the loot dist. system. For me playing a holy dps htere are only 5 items in MC that are worth getting. Only 1 of them dropped so far and i lost the roll. I`m mostly raiding for fun only. When we get to rag its getting interesting =) Tier 2 and Sulfuras!!

[Pfwg]

Proposed system from Raid today:

1st roll - Main spec only, 0 epics recieved this week only, [Armour type restriction?]
2nd roll - Main spec only, no item recieved restriction, no armour type restriction
3rd roll - No restrictions

Interesting to debate mainly is the armour type restriction on the 1st roll.

[Tifon]

I have a question.

I don't see any rule that said "Epics are reserved, as they are game changing. Same with recipies", and "The oldest player get the item, if not you are called 'Ninja' " (That one didn't hapen to me).

But it seems this is hapening. I've been told so by some of your oldest raiders, "Epics are reserved, as they are game changing. Same with recipies". And i experienced been denied to roll for items because "you are new, i'm not going to give you a recipie", like if they own it before start. I've seen some people being called "Ninja", even when they win a pre-bis item, but the oldest player, that share the pre-bis item, didn't get it. (this one didn't see it hapening in raid, but must be call out). This is hapening, and i saw it with my own eyes, coming from raid leaders.

So....sup boys, just do want you want as a comunity, but i don't want more surprises. My question is, are they non-written rules to know about?

PD: This may feel a bit controversial, and it may shake the cool environment. But i think is related to the subject. Even when some of you may feel attacked by this coment, it's not my intention to judge anyone but just to clearify facts.

[Pfwg]

We're not going to give the recipe for Titanic Leggings to a warrior who was level 54 at the time. We're going to give the server first Titanic Leggings recipe to the designated raid Armorsmith, who has all of the other Armorsmithing recipes that you and every other Armorsmith (mine included) hasn't put the work in for.

To suggest that it was unfair for the server first titanic leggings to go to the designated raid armorsmith is just silly.

Since this happened over a week ago and you still haven't got in touch with the people who can make the materials for these legs for you (ie the flasks) I presume you're complaining because you can't craft them, not because you actually want them made. If you wanted them made, the only flask crafter on the server would have heard from you by now.

And i experienced been denied to roll for items because "you are new, i'm not going to give you a recipie"

This is a perfectly valid reason to not give you the server first titanic leggings. You were a level 54 warrior. I presume you decided to level to 60 before writing this complaint.

"The oldest player get the item, if not you are called 'Ninja' " (That one didn't hapen to me).

Unless you've got any evidence, I'm going to assume that you're either making this up for dramatic effect, or are talking about 5 man loot because I've never seen this behaviour in raids.

PFWG/Edd

[Gifted]

I don't see any rule that said "Epics are reserved, as they are game changing. Same with recipies", and "The oldest player get the item, if not you are called 'Ninja' " (That one didn't hapen to me).

There are no rules stating anything is reserved at the moment. We are currently having a discussion in another thread about the current loot system so that may change in time...

I've been told so by some of your oldest raiders, "Epics are reserved, as they are game changing. Same with recipies". And i experienced been denied to roll for items because "you are new, i'm not going to give you a recipie", like if they own it before start.

I don't know if the titanic legplates pattern dropped or not, wasn't there if it did. We do need to be consistent with our raid rules as this is a legitimate complaint if people feel like they're being denied an opportunity to roll on loot.

I know some players have recently started to shift their thinking that certain loot needs to be reserved for people who aren't going to disappear overnight. I personally don't share that feeling. We've had several players we thought would be here long-term that have stopped playing for one reason or another (Athena, LeFaux, Chlothar to name a few).

That being said, we will look at this as part of our current review of the raid loot distribution system.

While we do that I'd like you to consider things from another perspective. When it comes to the profession patterns or the really rare enchants what does it matter if you win them? With large servers this was a big deal because crafters could charge a 50g crafting 'fee' that was very lucrative. But this is a small private server where everyone knows everyone. I don't think any raiders are going to charge their fellow raiders to craft items they need, especially if you farm all the materials for them.

~Gifted

[Tifon]

This is just so wrong

[Gifted]

Based on conversations with players and during the last raid the rule 'Only 1 epic per raid' has been modified to no longer include BoE items. This rule will now only apply to BoP items from raids.

~Gifted

[Chilltools]

I don't roll on tank gear when not speced to do so. Tank progression = raid progression.