Veteran vs Newbie Raid Loot Issue

[Gifted]

I've been getting a lot of complaints about the current loot system benefiting new raiders over veteran raiders. This makes sense since new raiders have a lot more gear slots that need upgrading and therefore get to roll more often compared to veteran raiders who need relatively fewer upgrades and therefore roll much less often.

If you look at Gifted's Loot on the loot tracker you'll see that the last time I received an upgrade was January 18th! Pretzel's not doing much better with his last upgrade on January 25th. Now I'm not complaining about my own lack of loot, but I know if some of you went for 3+ months without any upgrades I'd be hearing about it!

We've even seen new raiders try to manipulate the loot system by passing on loot or waiting for the greed / off-spec rolls so minor upgrades don't count against the 1 epic per raid rule. Then they roll on drops from Ragnaros against veteran players and walk with 2 or more epics while veterans go empty handed. Even worse, some new raiders show-up for raids, roll against veterans to win top pieces ofgear, then never come back to raid!

So it's becoming apparent that there is a disparity in loot distribution between new and veteran raiders. With that in mind, the raid leadership is reviewing the current loot system with an eye on how to even things out between new raiders and veteran raiders.

Some ideas we've been kicking around:

• Certain non-class specific items should be reserved for veteran raiders
• Attendance tracking should determine who qualifies as a veteran raider
• New raiders should have a very clear path to becoming a veteran raider

We'd like to hear from both new raiders and veteran raiders alike about how we can best handle this. Please post your ideas in the replies below. We'd like to make changes to loot distribution during the May 16-17 raids.

~Gifted

[Qixel]

I know the main argument against this has been that new players will feel like there's no reward for them coming to help, but I want to assure people that will not be the case. A lot of raiders have been raiding for the better part of a year, and they only have one or two pieces left to get from Molten Core. Some others are completely geared and still come for the camaraderie. There will always be loot available to newbies (ask Dispatch, who in two weeks has a nearly complete set of tier! xD), the only thing that would truly be changing is that people who have been spending weeks and months in search of a specific item would not lose it to someone who came for the first time and never again. Eventually, the newbies will be in that position of being next in line for those top tier items. So everyone will get rewarded, aside from the one-and-done raiders. For most people, this can only be an improvement. <3

On to actual suggestions, I feel it is important that veteran status is on a character-by-character basis, or that each player is asked to determine a 'main', so to speak. What I mean is, Engie is obviously my main character. But I also have three other 60s right now. If I run out of gear I want on Engie, I should not be able to just come with Adrasteia the next week and have more priority on the popular loot than a paladin who has been raiding for three weeks. Adrasteia should be at the back of the line. Of course, we have people who use their alts tp benefit the raid, such as me swapping to Lenore for an extra banish, or Edd jumping on his druid to tank in a pinch. I do not feel those should be punished, which is why I feel designating a main would be the optimal course. If you are asked to come as something else for the fight (warlock for Garr, mage for Majordomo, etc), it should be counted as if you were still on your main. Obviously, this doesn't help loot for that fight, but I don't quite know how to go about making it most fair. I bring it up in hopes others have ideas. <3

Lastly, thank you for posting this on the forums. I know we get into a small discussion about it weekly on voice during the raid, but putting your thoughts into text not only allows your points not to be lost in the shuffle as easily, it also lets us focus on the raid during the raid. I think this will lead to much, much less drama over loot, and I look forward to a consensus being made on how best to proceed.

Engie

[Xerron]

On to actual suggestions, I feel it is important that veteran status is on a character-by-character basis, or that each player is asked to determine a 'main', so to speak. What I mean is, Engie is obviously my main character. But I also have three other 60s right now. If I run out of gear I want on Engie, I should not be able to just come with Adrasteia the next week and have more priority on the popular loot than a paladin who has been raiding for three weeks. Adrasteia should be at the back of the line.

I agree with this.

[Nugglies]

• Certain non-class specific items should be reserved for veteran raiders
• Attendance tracking should determine who qualifies as a veteran raider
• New raiders should have a very clear path to becoming a veteran raider

as long as these things are are clearly spelled out and available to everyone then that's all i really ask. as far as attendance is concerned there should also be a path back to casual from veteran, aka missing 3 raids in a row will put you down a tier or something like that. of course, being on "standby" or missing for some important reason is another issue. i'm essentially hoping this veteran/nub dichotomy is two-way street. that way, people don't feel like they are enshrined on a pedestal as a vet and can just coast to free epics, and the newer raiders don't resent the veterans if they are being lazy. new raiders that put in work will get their rewards. effort still matters.

[Pfwg]

Completely agree with this.

I'd like for there to be a roster of people deemed "veteran", though. As I said in the Friday night loot discussion, it's for the best if people can look up what loot they can and can't win in a raid so that they are aware (or at least have the chance to be aware) before stepping into a raid what they are eligible to win, and thus temper their hopes accordingly.

That said, here is the list of items I'd suggest were subject to these changes (I haven't included tank loot, since the tanks sort their own loot between themselves).

Robe of Volatile Power
Salamander Scale Pants
Ring of Spellpower
Mana Igniting Cord
Quick Strike Ring
Striker's Mark
Brutality Blade
Azuresong Mageblade
Wild Growth Spaulders
Cauterizing Band
Choker of the Firelord
Band of Accuria
Perdition's Blade
Bone Reaver's Edge
Ancient Petrified Leaf / Eye of Divinity
Talisman of Ephemeral Power


I'd like to see other people's input on this list. I've omitted a few "big ticket" items like Staff of Dominance because while they are superb items, there are generally better options or the items themselves aren't that useful for raid progression.

It might also be an idea for this to apply to some items that drop from Azuregos/Turtle/BWL but I think starting this with MC is a good place to trial how well it is received.

Edd

EDIT:

On to actual suggestions, I feel it is important that veteran status is on a character-by-character basis, or that each player is asked to determine a 'main', so to speak [...] Of course, we have people who use their alts tp benefit the raid, such as me swapping to Lenore for an extra banish, or Edd jumping on his druid to tank in a pinch. I do not feel those should be punished, which is why I feel designating a main would be the optimal course.

I 100% agree with this also. I can't speak for other people, but if I'm asked to switch characters from my paladin on a boss that has some loot that I want for my paladin, the answer is "no". I'm happy to switch but not willing to do so if it risks missing out on something for my main. We were quite rightly asked to pick a main, and I have, and I haven't raided on an alt in any meaningful way since. In my mind at least, being "forced" to switch to my druid to tank on Majordomo and then watching Wild Growth Spaulders drop when I'm not able to roll on them would certainly feel like a punishment, albeit from the Gods of RNG and not the raid in particular.

[Chlo]

Hi all,

I completely agree with Gifted's post and the replies. I have felt the frustration of showing up week after week putting in every effort I can, only to lose out on loot time and time and again. As can be seen on http://tabc.guilds.turtlehead.info/character/60 (my loot for Chlo) I went around 3 months without a win, all the while watching other hunters scoop up their "one epic per raid" each raid, sometimes two items in a single weekend when MC started on a Saturday and was completed on a Sunday. Some of these items have gone to players that have not returned or have returned infrequently. At that point, I completely lost interest in playing my hunter and made a new character. After playing on my druid for a number of raids, my interest returned (mainly due to Chomper) and have had some nice wins since.

I am now in the position where there is only one item in MC that my hunter needs (Cloak of the Shrouded Mists from Rag). I would be upset to lose out on the only item I want to a player who has showed up for the first time and has so many upgrades available to them in the instance.

With respect to what Engie said, I agree "veteran status" should apply to the character and not the player. I also think picking a "main character" is fair, which echoes a previous post made by Gifted. If we are low on healers, I'd more more than happy to heal on any boss except Rag and would not roll on any healer items - i.e. rolling as if I'm on my main.

As per Edd's reply, people should know up front what they are and are not eligible to win before they step inside an instance and invest their time and effort. It is also disappointing for raiders that have been attending for a number of months (and for some nearly a year) to see newer players be perfectly happy to watch upgrades be disenchanted in front of their eyes in return for a shot at the items "veterans" have waited a long time for and may be the only item they are there for. This abuses and defeats the point of how the loot system was meant to work.

Chlo

[Gifted]

...as far as attendance is concerned there should also be a path back to casual from veteran, aka missing 3 raids in a row will put you down a tier or something like that. of course, being on "standby" or missing for some important reason is another issue. i'm essentially hoping this veteran/nub dichotomy is two-way street. that way, people don't feel like they are enshrined on a pedestal as a vet and can just coast to free epics, and the newer raiders don't resent the veterans if they are being lazy. new raiders that put in work will get their rewards. effort still matters.

The thought (so far) is to look at the last 2 or 3 months of raid attendance to determine veteran status. If we only count the Sat/Sun raids that's an average of 8 raids per month.

We might do something like 70% attendance earns veteran status. If a veteran drops below 50% attendance then they lose their veteran status. We're still working through the details...

~Gifted

[Justice]

I agree with most of the things that have been discussed. I appreciate the dedication that you veterans make, but I want to know sometimes what you get in return. For example, there are many objects in MC that are not rolled. As I said it seems good to me. But I would like to know that I won't be able to obtain. For example, I saw in last MC Aurelian with the legendary [Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros] and It looks like I won't never get it because ''newbies'' don't have a chance to get certain mats.

My questions are simples: What things do we not have access to? Who are veterans and how to become a veteran?

I would like to add something, to help progress in BWL and the next raids. I think we have to share the loot a bit with the newbies. It's better a raid with 40 half-equipped people (4 epics each) than 10 people almost fully equipped with 30 blue people. This is just an example for you to understand what I mean.

Apologize if I don't express myself properly, I do my best.

[Chirpy]

An addon like epgp takes care of almost all these issues automatically. Awards effort points for showing up, a weekly decay to prevent hoarding, and customizable options to discount certain loot that almost everybody has or no one wants.

But yes, I support any changes that create a more balanced loot system between vets and newbies.

[Dpk]

As someone who would likely never qualify as a veteran raider on this server, I support this method. I certainly have benefited on several of my characters from the current method, but also realize how unfair it can be to those putting in the time to get us all to where we are today.

As was stated, the details of veteran qualification will be sorted out and posted to be transparent/set expectations. We should expect it not to be perfect, but a great starting point to keep progression going and reward all levels of raiders.

I feel we will all benefit from a system such as what is proposed to keep veterans engaged, avoid burnout, maintain progression and still allow non-veterans and newbies alike to get loot.

I appreciate all the raid leaders, organizers, those that come prepared and everyone putting in the time to make this all possible to begin with, thank you.

-Ashana, Climatica, TwoTacoJack, Bonedaddy, Itakecandle, Mytaco(and the rest of the mexican food gang)...

[Suwuxiv]

I can understand older players wanting things first to a degree, but I think that some of you should also count your blessings and realize that a lot of the newer raiders here are worse geared than most of your 2-3 alts..

I will be honest here, with fresh BWL & subsequent AQ progression on the horizon for Turtle WoW in the coming 2-3 months, this kind of comes off as veterans wanting what will be new loot first. Again, I partially can understand it in ways but it can't be overdone. This server will lose a bit of its population anyway when the Covid lockdown ends..

@Pwfg: Some items on that list are silly. The leaf in particular no one even wanted last week and the Magesong dagger went to an alt that double dipped loot as well xD in the MC prior to Azuregos.

Prioritize those that do a lot for the raid MAYBE but not prioritize those who are just greedy, imo.

[Claboth]

Thanks so far for everyone's efforts on making this Turtle Wow Journey one to enjoy now and to remember in the coming years!
I agree with Veterans being eligible for most wanted items. Well deserved I say.

As for raid attendance, I don't know if I ever will get Veteran Status due to this. My schedule is very uncertain at times.
Last 2 mc runs i was able to join only cause of guildies trading their spot with me (Thanks, Slowbro and Romanov) as they didn't need items from last 2 bosses. Just want to clarify, when i'm late it's not because of being lazy, that's all.

As Feral Tank I'll be rolling (if allowed) on non set epic leather stuff that have exceptional armor, stamina, dodge...
At this point it's Kashada and myself who are looking for these items.

Do we get as feral tanks priority on these items versus rogues and hunters?
Am I allowed to roll on these items as tank with non veteran status?

From MC i'm looking for

Dragon's Blood Cape, Heavy Dark Iron Ring, Medallion of Steadfast Might.

From BWL i'm looking for

Malfurion's Blessed Bulwark, Taut Dragonhide Shoulderpads, Elementium threaded Cloak, Boots of the Shadow Flame.

This is for main spec. If T2 healing stuff drops and all Resto druids have theirs, i will roll on offspec items for healing.

I'm currently joining raids as 11/33/7 full tank spec. If the raid wants me to spec 0/30/21 heart of the wild spec to be able to help tank and heal, then that's ok for me, just need to get some of those huge bags to carry all the stuff and consumables.

[Gifted]

Trying to reply to some questions for clarity.

I appreciate everyone's contributions to the discussion!

I agree with most of the things that have been discussed. I appreciate the dedication that you veterans make, but I want to know sometimes what you get in return. For example, there are many objects in MC that are not rolled. As I said it seems good to me. But I would like to know that I won't be able to obtain. For example, I saw in last MC Aurelian with the legendary [Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros] and It looks like I won't never get it because ''newbies'' don't have a chance to get certain mats.

We want to give big loot items to raiders who will consistantly show-up and benefit the raid. Past attendance is the best indicator of future attendance. A 'newbie' always has the option of becoming a veteran through regular raid attendance. This isn't supposed to be a permanent barrier to loot. That includes legendaries!

Right now we're thinking it'll take 2-3 months (8-12 weeks) of regular raid attendance to earn veteran status. To put that in perspective, some of us have been raiding since Sept 8th 2019 (35 weeks). It'll take you 1/3 the time it took me to earn veteran status.

Once you're a veteran you have the same chances on Sulfuras as any other veteran raider.

My questions are simples: What things do we not have access to?

We'll post a list on these forums like everything else. I think Edd's list hits a lot of the 'big ticket' items.

Who are veterans and how to become a veteran?

We might do something like 70% attendance earns veteran status. If a veteran drops below 50% attendance then they lose their veteran status. We're still working through the details...

An addon like epgp takes care of almost all these issues automatically. Awards effort points for showing up, a weekly decay to prevent hoarding, and customizable options to discount certain loot that almost everybody has or no one wants.

But yes, I support any changes that create a more balanced loot system between vets and newbies.

We did discuss an EPGP system, but it's just more data to manage. We already have attendance tracking with the loot tracking system, so we thought it made sense to just take advantage of that data first.

I can understand older players wanting things first to a degree, but I think that some of you should also count your blessings and realize that a lot of the newer raiders here are worse geared than most of your 2-3 alts..

This is a fair criticism. The raid leadership has discussed this as well.

I will be honest here, with fresh BWL & subsequent AQ progression on the horizon for Turtle WoW in the coming 2-3 months, this kind of comes off as veterans wanting what will be new loot first. Again, I partially can understand it in ways but it can't be overdone. This server will lose a bit of its population anyway when the Covid lockdown ends..

I didn't look closely at Edd's list, but everything I've heard discussed is high-end Molten Core loot. We have MC on farm every Saturday (3 hour runs). So veterans view this more as old loot. Many of us only need 1-2 more items from Molten Core to help with BWL progression. These same veterans are helping a lot of new raiders farm gear every week.

I haven't heard any raid leaders suggest that only veterans get specific BWL loot. But you're right, if we're going to do a 2-tiered loot system there has to be a balance between the newbies and veterans. None of the Molten Core class-specific tier pieces are reserved for veterans. That's 8 epic pieces of gear that newbies have pretty easy access to. Our priest Dispatch managed to get 5 tier pieces in a single day just last Saturday. It was pretty amazing!

I think there's enough loot for everyone, the veterans have just been waiting longer for it. Don't you think that deserves at least SOME consideration?

~Gifted

[Suwuxiv]

I think there's enough loot for everyone, the veterans have just been waiting longer for it. Don't you think that deserves at least SOME consideration?

With mains, yes - I even stated as such. I however do not really agree with gearing a bunch of peoples alts. If you want some loot priority pick a main and discourage gaming the system. And again that loot priority should have limitations as well.

Also I am sorry but I do not know how to do the forum codes well so don't mind that.

[Alkatraz]

HELLO ALL! well this is a good new for all of us, well i think is a long time for say that cus talk about it alot of time befor of this but i talk only in my own name, well i think the loot system is broken now all ppl can loot all items and alot of ppl try get prior on they guild mates and that is not good, im stop raiding a lot cus is rlly rlly bad u go to a raid all weeks and fnlly drop a item u need and other ppl win u, well in my case im a tank a lot of time with u guys, but u know i dont get a upgrade for tank time ago and when a upgrade is drop another win like head of onyx, MAGES and alts get the head befor me XD is funny that but now if u want make another system like a veteran or neewbe i think u need frsit look a main roster actually im play in dps spect for try get another perspective of the raid and get dps stuff but if u say the main tanks r that i can back to tank cus my gear for tank is pretty good, with the new ppl come i think not have a big change cus they need alot of items the veterans only need 2 or 3 pices soo that is good now.
well i have a only 1 quest: alters r considerate veterans?, that is.
now im waiting what happend if rely change the loot or stay in the actuall system.

[Raymundo]

As a very new member to this server and with only 1 raid behind me I honestly can't complain about a system that rewards people who've been here longer and have proven themselves as core raiders. However i do feel like transparency and communication are essential to making everyone comfortable with any loot system.

If its decided that the loot system will be Vets first then please clearly list the requirements for said Title and also list those who've achieved it. I also agree with above posts that this will be easier on everyone if it is Character based and not Acc.

A clear outline of what loot is available to what classes/spec (priority at least) should be made available. I know there are many posts and BiS lists that already exist but due to the unique nature of our server and classes (I.e Ret pally) our "Turtle" BiS may vary from typical lists.

Again, if its clearly communicated and listed for all to see there is little room for arguments, only discussion of possible adjustments to said list going forward.


Id like to however forewarn of 2 potentials limiting factors in a Veteran First loot system...

1: This will most likely dissuade new players from entering the raid. In my opinion the players this will be turned off are not team players, and it will most likely result in a better core raiding group. I may be wrong about the results but I do believe it will dissuade new players regardless.


2: Like i said i am new to this server and not sure of the raiding culture, wants/needs, and overall goals. With that said, if progression is high up on everyone's list then I would be wary of a strict Veterans first system. Not everyone is here to progress and reach optimal efficiency and that is fine. However I'd warn that if BiS loot is given to Veterans over others that may help progress the raid further, strictly based of time put in, then you will hinder yourselves as a whole.



TLDR: Common sense says Vets get loot over Newbies.. Just be clear about it. But consider progression in your loot choices. If a player has been here 5 years but refuses to improve/change it may effect your ability to go further in BwL/AQ and so on, even if they are decked in epics.

[Kazgrim]

I think it would serve new players well if they started organizing their own raids. Minimum you need is 20 after all.

[Xerron]

I think it would serve new players well if they started organizing their own raids. Minimum you need is 20 after all.

while this is true indeed, some fights scale down better than others. sure gaar has 50% hp / 50% melee damage with 20 people but you still have 8 adds that do 100% magic damage to deal with
same goes for domo's 8 adds

we've dealt with all these issues during long nights of endless wipes but newbies think we steam rolled through mc like it's classic
people leveled alt locks to help banishes, alt priests when we were lacking healers too, farmed fire/arcane pots for the whole raid for shaz/baron and we still hand them out

[Pfwg]

Nice points and a nice discussion so far, thanks everyone for partaking :)

@Pwfg: Some items on that list are silly. The leaf in particular no one even wanted last week and the Magesong dagger went to an alt that double dipped loot as well xD in the MC prior to Azuregos.

That's because all the hunters have it. Perhaps it was before you raided with us, but we had a tonne of hunters all vying for the leaf at one point, and we gave it to the highest roller. Of the first 5 leaves that were given out, 2 don't play here any more and 1 still hasn't got the bow. I appreciate that it's not exactly contested loot right now, but it was for a long time and it might be again. Just because it's not highly contested one week doesn't mean that it isn't highly contestable.

Mageblade didn't go to an alt last week, it went to Trepp. Unless I'm missing something, they're not an alt but wouldn't have been around for long enough to qualify as a veteran just yet. I don't really know what you mean by "double dipped loot", either. According to my logs that was the only piece they received last week.

If there's more questions about why particular items are included on the list, please do keep them coming. There are a few items that could be added to the list and perhaps one or two that could be removed. I do think that it's better to have a future-proof list of items, rather than a list of "this is the contested loot right now" because the former will never have to change whereas the latter would need to be updated constantly. That's why I didn't include stuff like the Shaman shoulders, despite Ilmane only needing that to complete their 8/8 T1 which is huge for shamans.

[Xerron]

yeah, your list of wanted items is like 16
up for grabs tier sets is like 9 classes * 8 pieces, 72 + random boss loot you did not include, that gets close to 100
so everyone whining about the core stealing loot from newbies should take this into consideration

on any given mc raid, i bet you my top dollar that newbies will get more loot

[Reito]

Hi there, Faustus here,

TBH I don't really know how far I would be from achieving the veteran status, probably not that far (based on what was outlined in this thread) but I would still advice against proposed system, even though I completely agree that the current one is not optimal. I would actually argue for some typical DKP system and I have few arguments to make:

1. Agency - both the old and the proposed system are quite random. Sure you will have smaller pool of veteran players but still the RNG decides who wins the roll. Usual DKP system is something that allows you to progresivelly work towards a goal to gather points and head somewhere. You know what you have earned through your work and you know that you will get what you want eventually. That is so important for every RPG. More veteran players who only need few items will bid more on them as they have more points and newer players will get cheaper items. (And you can have minimal cost so that people dont cheat on bidding)

2. New players - nothing discourages a new player more than hearing "Yeah there is some loot for veteran players only" in the /world when they will ask on lvl 5 how does the server raiding work. And trust me this is exactly what the message will sound like down the line.

3. Every system which has some rules will have people try to operate in that system to maximise their gain. This system will too and it will probably be quite extensive from trying to just keep above the 50% attendance, pushing for as much multiboxed characters if the raid is not full to get the attendance or being really salty that if you can attend 1 raid per week (my case) you can never get veteran status no matter how long you play.

Just to sum it up. I think there is a lot of potential for elitism and saltiness with proposed system. Just go with some progressive point awarding system in which all the loot is accessible (and give some starting DKP to "veterans") It will be easier and definitely there will be less drama.

Sry for typos, writing from my mobile on the family lunch

[Chlo]

Mageblade didn't go to an alt last week, it went to Trepp. Unless I'm missing something, they're not an alt but wouldn't have been around for long enough to qualify as a veteran just yet. I don't really know what you mean by "double dipped loot", either. According to my logs that was the only piece they received last week.

Perhaps they mean the Fang of the Mystics from Azuregos which went to Ignus (Ruari's alt), when Ruari had already won the Wristguards of True Flight in MC.

[Gifted]

Some more feedback based on new posts. Keep 'em coming!

well i have a only 1 quest: alters r considerate veterans?

Alts are always tricky. We're still discussing this and hope to hear from others on this topic as well.

There's a handful of raiders with alts that regularly swap toons to help with certain boss fights. I don't want to punish raiders for making sacrifices to help with progression. My guess is that we'll be tracking attendance for each character, so if someone's alt joins the raid regularly to help with a specific boss fight they would get credit for attendance that day and could earn veteran status the same as any other character.

TLDR: Common sense says Vets get loot over Newbies.. Just be clear about it. But consider progression in your loot choices. If a player has been here 5 years but refuses to improve/change it may effect your ability to go further in BwL/AQ and so on, even if they are decked in epics.

We've discussed raid performance as well. There's still some debate over this within the raid leadership so I think (for now) we've decide to just start with attendance for veteran status.

I think it would serve new players well if they started organizing their own raids. Minimum you need is 20 after all.

Yes, this is always an option for newbies, but let's put that into perspective...

We started raiding with 20 people and it took us approximately 3-4 months before our first full clear of Molten Core. Since we're discussing newbies needing 2-3 months of regular raid attendance to become veterans you'd probably earn veteran status a whole month before your first Ragnaros kill, assuming you start your own raid group.

It also took us about 1.5 months before our first Garr kill. That means we were only killing about 1-3 bosses per week in that first month or so of raiding. If you raid with us you'll kill all 10 bosses in your first Molten Core raid. That's 3-10 times the amount of loot for 'newbies' to roll on than if you started raiding from scratch!

And finally, I have about a dozen BoE epics (class-specific Tier 1 bracers/belts) in my inventory waiting to go to 'newbie' raiders. The next druid or shaman to join us will get 2 free epics just for walking into Molten Core!

yeah, your list of wanted items is like 16
up for grabs tier sets is like 9 classes * 8 pieces, 72 + random boss loot you did not include, that gets close to 100
so everyone whining about the core stealing loot from newbies should take this into consideration.

ER's math is correct. Edd's list of 16 items represents less than 15% of the overall loot being reserved for veterans. That would leave over 85% of the loot in Molten Core up for grabs to everyone!

I would actually argue for some typical DKP system...

The raid leadership has discussed both DKP as well as EPGP systems. The only reason we don't run these systems is because nobody wants to be in charge of running those systems. It's a lot of extra work and requires someone to attend 100% of raids to track it all. I agree the random systems aren't optimal, but they work well enough for us.

2. New players - nothing discourages a new player more than hearing "Yeah there is some loot for veteran players only" in the /world when they will ask on lvl 5 how does the server raiding work. And trust me this is exactly what the message will sound like down the line.

This is a legitimate criticism.

Obviously we can't control messaging in /world chat. But we are going to make it very clear how anyone can go from newbie to veteran status. Hopefully when new players hear some loot is reserved for veterans they'll also hear that it only takes a few weeks of regular raiding to become veterans themselves!

~Gifted

[Reito]

Ok, maybe one more thing, wouldnt it be nice to make it easier to go veteran based on some other contribution but the atendance?

[Gifted]

Ok, maybe one more thing, wouldnt it be nice to make it easier to go veteran based on some other contribution but the atendance?

This seems like a reasonable request. Could you provide some examples? It would have to be something significant since it's probably going to take a month or two for the average raider to earn veteran status. The only comparable thing I can think of is Chlo going to Scholomance every week to craft Flasks for everyone. That's a significant contribution.

~Gifted

[Raynbow]

Hey there, im new to the raiding on here but i would like to contribute a suggestion anyways. Im sorry if its hard to read, i have my problems with writing long texts.

Like Reito suggested already, im one of those that like the thought of a DKP System and i wanted to contribute a few details for a dkp system.

- Dkp are not for all raids together, i reccomend using dkp only for Mc and Bwl and both should have a seperated list.

-To the Reply of Gifted with the argument who attended the raid, making a screenshot at the beginning, middle and one at the end of the raid and sending it to the one making the list should be good. It could be a google chart document where everyone can look into it and there can be no fakes, for example this with two charts: Turtle wont show it right (at least for me) so ill post it in the Offtopic channel on the Thunder Ale brewing Co Discord.

- Points could be only used for non class specific things. So not included are Class T-Sets, Druid and Hunter trinket from BWL and the Class quest items from MC. but Main and offspec are of course still important for this.

- If you come with your alt to the raid on your own behalf, this points should not count together with your main, they should be noted seperately. But, if the Raid needs him on another character, then he should have the right to get the points to the character he wanted to play for the raid.

- There are different options that i experienced for dkp, like including extra dkp for the pre quest or bufffood/potions or something like that, but i think it should count only for attending to keep it easy.

- My old Guild did it like 100 points in each run, bid 10 points for every bid you wanna place, nothing under that and if you win something with between 10-100 Points you start again with 100 in the next run. But if you keep the 100 till the end you get 100 standard points + 1 DKP for the next run. 1 DKP is worth more then the hundred points, so you can bid 1 DKP and noone can bid points anymore, only DKP for that item. An Mainspec bid still counts more then offspec, no matter the points/Dkp!

- Maybe raiders that play for a while now could get 1/2 dkp extra at the start. For the Veteran raiders thing

[Chlothar]

After reading all your posts i want to give you my view on this topic,

All gear i wanted from MC for my main spec are 2 items, i am at 1/2 atm and took part in lets say 80% of the MC-raids. I don`t have a problem with newbies rolling on gear everyone wants. But i`ve seen like 5 people getting the item i still need and left the server meanwhile. Also i see people joining MC in green lvling gear, loosing rolls against such players, which are not replacing even bad green items after WEEKS of raiding by dungeon blues can really hurt.
I actually like the idea of having a veteran system in general BUT:

I`d rather make the veteran status depend on raid preperation, aka. raid consumeables and dungeon gear + a minimum of raids. That`d encourage people to run more dungeons and help to make our raids go faster.

Also: everyone should choose one main cahracter that has the veteran status. Alts shouldnt get any loot priorities.
There`s always the possibility of changing the main cahracter ofc. that should be limited at some point too.

[Reito]

This seems like a reasonable request. Could you provide some examples?

~Gifted

I think that progression attendance should count much more than "MC on farm" attendance for example. Wiping in the suppression room is fun, but you can also just come for the ez farm MC

Also one more thing, it will be so hard to draw a line with the attendance, for example, you need to leave 30 min earlier, you know (and you will report it in advance) that you will be 30 min late etc. Does this mean no attendance for you? The simple DKP system solves all these problems as you simply get the points when you down a Boss.

Also (and this was raised as a point before) watching green ppl w/o any consumes, or ppl in PvP spec to enter MC is just sad. I love my PvP but wouldn't dare to set a foot in the raid with Soul link or atleast some arcane elixir for 50s.

[Ezuba]

I’m in favor of some sort of veteran raider list with a clear path to how you become part of that group. A high attendance should be the primary bar to entry but I do believe, as some have voiced, there should be some alternate criteria for a more “casual” player to work towards. What might this look like?

Example. If it takes 2 months of 70% attendance to become veteran than maybe 3 months of 50% attendance with some qualifications(donates protection pots for missed raids, comes with full consumables when present, otherwise shows that when they do show up they mean business).

Why? We are a small community with a non flexible raid schedule. Not everyone can devote a block of both weekend days away from work/family/other obligations to be present at every raid. I am generally not in this category but I understand that others are and should not feel like they have no course of action to take their character for progression or reason to help the group progress.

In my opinion T1 should be open roll or at least open roll unless a veteran is 7/8 and then has priority on the last piece of their set.

In my opinion no piece of enchant/libram-able T2 should go to a character without an item that is at least comparable to BiS blue with enchant(this is a place that class leaders can come in handy for moderation). What is comparable should be abit loose so long as the player has gotten proper enchants. I’ve gotta use my own class for example as it is what I know best... Rogue helmet options that would qualify; ebon mask, mask of unforgiven, eye of tend, shadowcraft helm, ghostshroud. This leaves things loose enough that someone who has put time into dungeoning should have no problem coming up with options that qualify so long as they have visited their local arcanum dealer.

I’ve noticed some strange interpretations of the current loot rules over the past few weeks. I’ve personally not been against the resolutions as they have in general been to slowly implement the things we are discussing now but because they have not been consistent I can see how it could be discouraging for newer members of the raid that just don’t know “why?”. I think whatever we come to conclude there needs to be consistency in how things are handled.

-Astrld

[Suwuxiv]

Perhaps they mean the Fang of the Mystics from Azuregos which went to Ignus (Ruari's alt), when Ruari had already won the Wristguards of True Flight in MC.

Yeah that one is the one I meant, sorry.

[Claboth]

As Clothar said:

I`d rather make the veteran status depend on raid preperation, aka. raid consumeables and dungeon gear + a minimum of raids. That`d encourage people to run more dungeons and help to make our raids go faster.

Totally agree with this. As for attendance in raids i won't reach veteran status in 2 months. Starting hour is not compatible with dinner, kid bedtime etc. So I can only join later when there is a raidspot left.
Apart from that, I'm online practically every day of the week in my hours to farm consumables to join as feral tank. Armor pots, flask mats, hp increase, juju's, felwood stuff, strenght, agi pots, elemental protection, ...

I've invested lots of hours doing research on my class (and still digging further ), learning the hidden tricks that make small improvement .
I make suggestions in #druid, so we can get a discussion going with other ppl.

I've been looking for hours at different feral gearing lists, the old taladrils, the updated one which i recently discovered, thick hydd's bear list, ... so I know where to find my items for mitigation and threat or the balanced mix.

Before joining MC as tank my prebis set was nearly finished and enchanted. Thx to all guildies and other players who have contributed their time, mats, advice. Very much appreciated.

So all this preparation ANY player does to join MC, ZG or BWL, should be taken into consideration when rewarding veteran status.

Sacredone.

[Chlo]

Please correct me if I'm missing something, but I don't understand why people are arguing that bringing consumables should count? If a healer comes without mana potions, and dps come without agility/caster potions, then they are not even doing the bare minimum. With the exception of flasks and perhaps juju, some of which (like the attack power one from the elite giants) can be more difficult and time-consuming to farm, surely everyone should be bringing the appropriate consumables?

Alternatively, I do agree that looking at what gear people have taken their time to get before attending the raid is important. As examples, Raymundo in his pre-raid bis did a solid 230dps on his first MC visit! Isabel in her pre-raid bis out-healed Aurrius at lvl 58. Sacredone and Kaschada are crushing it as our lovely bear tanks. There are instances going on all the time, so a lot of opportunities to get lovely dungeon blues!
Per Chlothar's comment, it is indeed hurtful to see people attend in greens they continually don't take the time to upgrade, only to roll and win the elusive item you have wanted for a long time.

Ultimately, I believe effort should equal reward. I do not however think that bringing the standard appropriate consumables for your class and spec should count towards this. It is what you should be doing anyway, no?

[Suwuxiv]

Ultimately, I believe effort should equal reward. I do not however think that bringing the standard appropriate consumables for your class and spec should count towards this. It is what you should be doing anyway, no?

I agree. It should be a given that people bring things like Mana Potions and the like. Myself, I tend to bring 10-15 Mana Potions with me to most raids along with Fire Resistance Potions, Runes (assuming I have them) along with cheap MP5 foods and mana oils - assuming I can find a person to bug to make them. I kind of don't think what quality people bring should matter that much though. While Chlo does sell Flasks on the cheap, there is a limited supply she has and not everyone on the server has the recipes

and not to forget to mention some of us are just poor. :p

.

This kind of applies the same for Enchants as well. At the moment my guild (House Avernus) lacks an active enchanter, but I have tried mustering together enchants for gear that I deem I'll be using mid~long-term. I do at some point want a healing power enchant for my mainhand weapon but I don't necessarily want to invest resources upgrading something I've had for a long time that's due to be replaced.

[Claboth]

Ultimately, I believe effort should equal reward. I do not however think that bringing the standard appropriate consumables for your class and spec should count towards this. It is what you should be doing anyway, no?

Of course this is what everyone should be doing.

Just wanted to point out if someone attends 100% of raids, coming in 50% greens, having pvp spec, having no consumables to push barriers, then they shouldn't get veteran status at all.

[Chlothar]

I totally agree with you Chlo...bringing your stuff to raids should be standard. But sadly for many it isnt. I`ve seen people with tier2 not enchanted. There`s a reason many raiders perform so bad dps-wise.
I`m so used to people underperform that i was really surprised to see some new people doing an excellent job on mostly green gear.

But back to topic. Ofc it makes sense to reward people with high attendence with veteran rank and gear, cuz that way the raid profits most.