Veteran vs Newbie Raid Loot Issue

[Raymundo]

As a very new member to this server and with only 1 raid behind me I honestly can't complain about a system that rewards people who've been here longer and have proven themselves as core raiders. However i do feel like transparency and communication are essential to making everyone comfortable with any loot system.

If its decided that the loot system will be Vets first then please clearly list the requirements for said Title and also list those who've achieved it. I also agree with above posts that this will be easier on everyone if it is Character based and not Acc.

A clear outline of what loot is available to what classes/spec (priority at least) should be made available. I know there are many posts and BiS lists that already exist but due to the unique nature of our server and classes (I.e Ret pally) our "Turtle" BiS may vary from typical lists.

Again, if its clearly communicated and listed for all to see there is little room for arguments, only discussion of possible adjustments to said list going forward.


Id like to however forewarn of 2 potentials limiting factors in a Veteran First loot system...

1: This will most likely dissuade new players from entering the raid. In my opinion the players this will be turned off are not team players, and it will most likely result in a better core raiding group. I may be wrong about the results but I do believe it will dissuade new players regardless.


2: Like i said i am new to this server and not sure of the raiding culture, wants/needs, and overall goals. With that said, if progression is high up on everyone's list then I would be wary of a strict Veterans first system. Not everyone is here to progress and reach optimal efficiency and that is fine. However I'd warn that if BiS loot is given to Veterans over others that may help progress the raid further, strictly based of time put in, then you will hinder yourselves as a whole.



TLDR: Common sense says Vets get loot over Newbies.. Just be clear about it. But consider progression in your loot choices. If a player has been here 5 years but refuses to improve/change it may effect your ability to go further in BwL/AQ and so on, even if they are decked in epics.

[Kazgrim]

I think it would serve new players well if they started organizing their own raids. Minimum you need is 20 after all.

[Xerron]

I think it would serve new players well if they started organizing their own raids. Minimum you need is 20 after all.

while this is true indeed, some fights scale down better than others. sure gaar has 50% hp / 50% melee damage with 20 people but you still have 8 adds that do 100% magic damage to deal with
same goes for domo's 8 adds

we've dealt with all these issues during long nights of endless wipes but newbies think we steam rolled through mc like it's classic
people leveled alt locks to help banishes, alt priests when we were lacking healers too, farmed fire/arcane pots for the whole raid for shaz/baron and we still hand them out

[Pfwg]

Nice points and a nice discussion so far, thanks everyone for partaking :)

@Pwfg: Some items on that list are silly. The leaf in particular no one even wanted last week and the Magesong dagger went to an alt that double dipped loot as well xD in the MC prior to Azuregos.

That's because all the hunters have it. Perhaps it was before you raided with us, but we had a tonne of hunters all vying for the leaf at one point, and we gave it to the highest roller. Of the first 5 leaves that were given out, 2 don't play here any more and 1 still hasn't got the bow. I appreciate that it's not exactly contested loot right now, but it was for a long time and it might be again. Just because it's not highly contested one week doesn't mean that it isn't highly contestable.

Mageblade didn't go to an alt last week, it went to Trepp. Unless I'm missing something, they're not an alt but wouldn't have been around for long enough to qualify as a veteran just yet. I don't really know what you mean by "double dipped loot", either. According to my logs that was the only piece they received last week.

If there's more questions about why particular items are included on the list, please do keep them coming. There are a few items that could be added to the list and perhaps one or two that could be removed. I do think that it's better to have a future-proof list of items, rather than a list of "this is the contested loot right now" because the former will never have to change whereas the latter would need to be updated constantly. That's why I didn't include stuff like the Shaman shoulders, despite Ilmane only needing that to complete their 8/8 T1 which is huge for shamans.

[Xerron]

yeah, your list of wanted items is like 16
up for grabs tier sets is like 9 classes * 8 pieces, 72 + random boss loot you did not include, that gets close to 100
so everyone whining about the core stealing loot from newbies should take this into consideration

on any given mc raid, i bet you my top dollar that newbies will get more loot

[Reito]

Hi there, Faustus here,

TBH I don't really know how far I would be from achieving the veteran status, probably not that far (based on what was outlined in this thread) but I would still advice against proposed system, even though I completely agree that the current one is not optimal. I would actually argue for some typical DKP system and I have few arguments to make:

1. Agency - both the old and the proposed system are quite random. Sure you will have smaller pool of veteran players but still the RNG decides who wins the roll. Usual DKP system is something that allows you to progresivelly work towards a goal to gather points and head somewhere. You know what you have earned through your work and you know that you will get what you want eventually. That is so important for every RPG. More veteran players who only need few items will bid more on them as they have more points and newer players will get cheaper items. (And you can have minimal cost so that people dont cheat on bidding)

2. New players - nothing discourages a new player more than hearing "Yeah there is some loot for veteran players only" in the /world when they will ask on lvl 5 how does the server raiding work. And trust me this is exactly what the message will sound like down the line.

3. Every system which has some rules will have people try to operate in that system to maximise their gain. This system will too and it will probably be quite extensive from trying to just keep above the 50% attendance, pushing for as much multiboxed characters if the raid is not full to get the attendance or being really salty that if you can attend 1 raid per week (my case) you can never get veteran status no matter how long you play.

Just to sum it up. I think there is a lot of potential for elitism and saltiness with proposed system. Just go with some progressive point awarding system in which all the loot is accessible (and give some starting DKP to "veterans") It will be easier and definitely there will be less drama.

Sry for typos, writing from my mobile on the family lunch

[Chlo]

Mageblade didn't go to an alt last week, it went to Trepp. Unless I'm missing something, they're not an alt but wouldn't have been around for long enough to qualify as a veteran just yet. I don't really know what you mean by "double dipped loot", either. According to my logs that was the only piece they received last week.

Perhaps they mean the Fang of the Mystics from Azuregos which went to Ignus (Ruari's alt), when Ruari had already won the Wristguards of True Flight in MC.

[Gifted]

Some more feedback based on new posts. Keep 'em coming!

well i have a only 1 quest: alters r considerate veterans?

Alts are always tricky. We're still discussing this and hope to hear from others on this topic as well.

There's a handful of raiders with alts that regularly swap toons to help with certain boss fights. I don't want to punish raiders for making sacrifices to help with progression. My guess is that we'll be tracking attendance for each character, so if someone's alt joins the raid regularly to help with a specific boss fight they would get credit for attendance that day and could earn veteran status the same as any other character.

TLDR: Common sense says Vets get loot over Newbies.. Just be clear about it. But consider progression in your loot choices. If a player has been here 5 years but refuses to improve/change it may effect your ability to go further in BwL/AQ and so on, even if they are decked in epics.

We've discussed raid performance as well. There's still some debate over this within the raid leadership so I think (for now) we've decide to just start with attendance for veteran status.

I think it would serve new players well if they started organizing their own raids. Minimum you need is 20 after all.

Yes, this is always an option for newbies, but let's put that into perspective...

We started raiding with 20 people and it took us approximately 3-4 months before our first full clear of Molten Core. Since we're discussing newbies needing 2-3 months of regular raid attendance to become veterans you'd probably earn veteran status a whole month before your first Ragnaros kill, assuming you start your own raid group.

It also took us about 1.5 months before our first Garr kill. That means we were only killing about 1-3 bosses per week in that first month or so of raiding. If you raid with us you'll kill all 10 bosses in your first Molten Core raid. That's 3-10 times the amount of loot for 'newbies' to roll on than if you started raiding from scratch!

And finally, I have about a dozen BoE epics (class-specific Tier 1 bracers/belts) in my inventory waiting to go to 'newbie' raiders. The next druid or shaman to join us will get 2 free epics just for walking into Molten Core!

yeah, your list of wanted items is like 16
up for grabs tier sets is like 9 classes * 8 pieces, 72 + random boss loot you did not include, that gets close to 100
so everyone whining about the core stealing loot from newbies should take this into consideration.

ER's math is correct. Edd's list of 16 items represents less than 15% of the overall loot being reserved for veterans. That would leave over 85% of the loot in Molten Core up for grabs to everyone!

I would actually argue for some typical DKP system...

The raid leadership has discussed both DKP as well as EPGP systems. The only reason we don't run these systems is because nobody wants to be in charge of running those systems. It's a lot of extra work and requires someone to attend 100% of raids to track it all. I agree the random systems aren't optimal, but they work well enough for us.

2. New players - nothing discourages a new player more than hearing "Yeah there is some loot for veteran players only" in the /world when they will ask on lvl 5 how does the server raiding work. And trust me this is exactly what the message will sound like down the line.

This is a legitimate criticism.

Obviously we can't control messaging in /world chat. But we are going to make it very clear how anyone can go from newbie to veteran status. Hopefully when new players hear some loot is reserved for veterans they'll also hear that it only takes a few weeks of regular raiding to become veterans themselves!

~Gifted

[Reito]

Ok, maybe one more thing, wouldnt it be nice to make it easier to go veteran based on some other contribution but the atendance?

[Gifted]

Ok, maybe one more thing, wouldnt it be nice to make it easier to go veteran based on some other contribution but the atendance?

This seems like a reasonable request. Could you provide some examples? It would have to be something significant since it's probably going to take a month or two for the average raider to earn veteran status. The only comparable thing I can think of is Chlo going to Scholomance every week to craft Flasks for everyone. That's a significant contribution.

~Gifted

[Raynbow]

Hey there, im new to the raiding on here but i would like to contribute a suggestion anyways. Im sorry if its hard to read, i have my problems with writing long texts.

Like Reito suggested already, im one of those that like the thought of a DKP System and i wanted to contribute a few details for a dkp system.

- Dkp are not for all raids together, i reccomend using dkp only for Mc and Bwl and both should have a seperated list.

-To the Reply of Gifted with the argument who attended the raid, making a screenshot at the beginning, middle and one at the end of the raid and sending it to the one making the list should be good. It could be a google chart document where everyone can look into it and there can be no fakes, for example this with two charts: Turtle wont show it right (at least for me) so ill post it in the Offtopic channel on the Thunder Ale brewing Co Discord.

- Points could be only used for non class specific things. So not included are Class T-Sets, Druid and Hunter trinket from BWL and the Class quest items from MC. but Main and offspec are of course still important for this.

- If you come with your alt to the raid on your own behalf, this points should not count together with your main, they should be noted seperately. But, if the Raid needs him on another character, then he should have the right to get the points to the character he wanted to play for the raid.

- There are different options that i experienced for dkp, like including extra dkp for the pre quest or bufffood/potions or something like that, but i think it should count only for attending to keep it easy.

- My old Guild did it like 100 points in each run, bid 10 points for every bid you wanna place, nothing under that and if you win something with between 10-100 Points you start again with 100 in the next run. But if you keep the 100 till the end you get 100 standard points + 1 DKP for the next run. 1 DKP is worth more then the hundred points, so you can bid 1 DKP and noone can bid points anymore, only DKP for that item. An Mainspec bid still counts more then offspec, no matter the points/Dkp!

- Maybe raiders that play for a while now could get 1/2 dkp extra at the start. For the Veteran raiders thing

[Chlothar]

After reading all your posts i want to give you my view on this topic,

All gear i wanted from MC for my main spec are 2 items, i am at 1/2 atm and took part in lets say 80% of the MC-raids. I don`t have a problem with newbies rolling on gear everyone wants. But i`ve seen like 5 people getting the item i still need and left the server meanwhile. Also i see people joining MC in green lvling gear, loosing rolls against such players, which are not replacing even bad green items after WEEKS of raiding by dungeon blues can really hurt.
I actually like the idea of having a veteran system in general BUT:

I`d rather make the veteran status depend on raid preperation, aka. raid consumeables and dungeon gear + a minimum of raids. That`d encourage people to run more dungeons and help to make our raids go faster.

Also: everyone should choose one main cahracter that has the veteran status. Alts shouldnt get any loot priorities.
There`s always the possibility of changing the main cahracter ofc. that should be limited at some point too.

[Reito]

This seems like a reasonable request. Could you provide some examples?

~Gifted

I think that progression attendance should count much more than "MC on farm" attendance for example. Wiping in the suppression room is fun, but you can also just come for the ez farm MC

Also one more thing, it will be so hard to draw a line with the attendance, for example, you need to leave 30 min earlier, you know (and you will report it in advance) that you will be 30 min late etc. Does this mean no attendance for you? The simple DKP system solves all these problems as you simply get the points when you down a Boss.

Also (and this was raised as a point before) watching green ppl w/o any consumes, or ppl in PvP spec to enter MC is just sad. I love my PvP but wouldn't dare to set a foot in the raid with Soul link or atleast some arcane elixir for 50s.

[Ezuba]

I’m in favor of some sort of veteran raider list with a clear path to how you become part of that group. A high attendance should be the primary bar to entry but I do believe, as some have voiced, there should be some alternate criteria for a more “casual” player to work towards. What might this look like?

Example. If it takes 2 months of 70% attendance to become veteran than maybe 3 months of 50% attendance with some qualifications(donates protection pots for missed raids, comes with full consumables when present, otherwise shows that when they do show up they mean business).

Why? We are a small community with a non flexible raid schedule. Not everyone can devote a block of both weekend days away from work/family/other obligations to be present at every raid. I am generally not in this category but I understand that others are and should not feel like they have no course of action to take their character for progression or reason to help the group progress.

In my opinion T1 should be open roll or at least open roll unless a veteran is 7/8 and then has priority on the last piece of their set.

In my opinion no piece of enchant/libram-able T2 should go to a character without an item that is at least comparable to BiS blue with enchant(this is a place that class leaders can come in handy for moderation). What is comparable should be abit loose so long as the player has gotten proper enchants. I’ve gotta use my own class for example as it is what I know best... Rogue helmet options that would qualify; ebon mask, mask of unforgiven, eye of tend, shadowcraft helm, ghostshroud. This leaves things loose enough that someone who has put time into dungeoning should have no problem coming up with options that qualify so long as they have visited their local arcanum dealer.

I’ve noticed some strange interpretations of the current loot rules over the past few weeks. I’ve personally not been against the resolutions as they have in general been to slowly implement the things we are discussing now but because they have not been consistent I can see how it could be discouraging for newer members of the raid that just don’t know “why?”. I think whatever we come to conclude there needs to be consistency in how things are handled.

-Astrld

[Suwuxiv]

Perhaps they mean the Fang of the Mystics from Azuregos which went to Ignus (Ruari's alt), when Ruari had already won the Wristguards of True Flight in MC.

Yeah that one is the one I meant, sorry.

[Claboth]

As Clothar said:

I`d rather make the veteran status depend on raid preperation, aka. raid consumeables and dungeon gear + a minimum of raids. That`d encourage people to run more dungeons and help to make our raids go faster.

Totally agree with this. As for attendance in raids i won't reach veteran status in 2 months. Starting hour is not compatible with dinner, kid bedtime etc. So I can only join later when there is a raidspot left.
Apart from that, I'm online practically every day of the week in my hours to farm consumables to join as feral tank. Armor pots, flask mats, hp increase, juju's, felwood stuff, strenght, agi pots, elemental protection, ...

I've invested lots of hours doing research on my class (and still digging further ), learning the hidden tricks that make small improvement .
I make suggestions in #druid, so we can get a discussion going with other ppl.

I've been looking for hours at different feral gearing lists, the old taladrils, the updated one which i recently discovered, thick hydd's bear list, ... so I know where to find my items for mitigation and threat or the balanced mix.

Before joining MC as tank my prebis set was nearly finished and enchanted. Thx to all guildies and other players who have contributed their time, mats, advice. Very much appreciated.

So all this preparation ANY player does to join MC, ZG or BWL, should be taken into consideration when rewarding veteran status.

Sacredone.

[Chlo]

Please correct me if I'm missing something, but I don't understand why people are arguing that bringing consumables should count? If a healer comes without mana potions, and dps come without agility/caster potions, then they are not even doing the bare minimum. With the exception of flasks and perhaps juju, some of which (like the attack power one from the elite giants) can be more difficult and time-consuming to farm, surely everyone should be bringing the appropriate consumables?

Alternatively, I do agree that looking at what gear people have taken their time to get before attending the raid is important. As examples, Raymundo in his pre-raid bis did a solid 230dps on his first MC visit! Isabel in her pre-raid bis out-healed Aurrius at lvl 58. Sacredone and Kaschada are crushing it as our lovely bear tanks. There are instances going on all the time, so a lot of opportunities to get lovely dungeon blues!
Per Chlothar's comment, it is indeed hurtful to see people attend in greens they continually don't take the time to upgrade, only to roll and win the elusive item you have wanted for a long time.

Ultimately, I believe effort should equal reward. I do not however think that bringing the standard appropriate consumables for your class and spec should count towards this. It is what you should be doing anyway, no?

[Suwuxiv]

Ultimately, I believe effort should equal reward. I do not however think that bringing the standard appropriate consumables for your class and spec should count towards this. It is what you should be doing anyway, no?

I agree. It should be a given that people bring things like Mana Potions and the like. Myself, I tend to bring 10-15 Mana Potions with me to most raids along with Fire Resistance Potions, Runes (assuming I have them) along with cheap MP5 foods and mana oils - assuming I can find a person to bug to make them. I kind of don't think what quality people bring should matter that much though. While Chlo does sell Flasks on the cheap, there is a limited supply she has and not everyone on the server has the recipes

and not to forget to mention some of us are just poor. :p

.

This kind of applies the same for Enchants as well. At the moment my guild (House Avernus) lacks an active enchanter, but I have tried mustering together enchants for gear that I deem I'll be using mid~long-term. I do at some point want a healing power enchant for my mainhand weapon but I don't necessarily want to invest resources upgrading something I've had for a long time that's due to be replaced.

[Claboth]

Ultimately, I believe effort should equal reward. I do not however think that bringing the standard appropriate consumables for your class and spec should count towards this. It is what you should be doing anyway, no?

Of course this is what everyone should be doing.

Just wanted to point out if someone attends 100% of raids, coming in 50% greens, having pvp spec, having no consumables to push barriers, then they shouldn't get veteran status at all.

[Chlothar]

I totally agree with you Chlo...bringing your stuff to raids should be standard. But sadly for many it isnt. I`ve seen people with tier2 not enchanted. There`s a reason many raiders perform so bad dps-wise.
I`m so used to people underperform that i was really surprised to see some new people doing an excellent job on mostly green gear.

But back to topic. Ofc it makes sense to reward people with high attendence with veteran rank and gear, cuz that way the raid profits most.

[Chlo]

Has this idea been abandoned now?

It was upsetting for me tonight to attend the whole raid for a shot at one item, only to lose to a player attending for their 3rd time with one pre-raid bis item and otherwise in greens. Newer players have so many items available to them to win in future raids and I'm totally gutted. I know the rules are the rules, I just wondered if anything is ever going to change?

I don't want to whine too much, I have had some lovely wins in BWL lately and it's not about pure greed on loot; it's about effort equalling reward. For example, each week I put time and effort into farming mats for flasks to make them available to non-herbalists. I don't need the gold, I do this to help the raid hence the cheap prices. I run extra scholo runs to make sure people get their flasks made as soon as possible. It's a bit tiring to do this week after week, but I want us to do well and progress.

Anyway, just venting some frustrations. Would be interested to hear what other people think.

Chlo.

[Raymundo]

I hope we can change something soon. I want to be clear that I have 0 issue with waiting for people or passing on loot to veterans.

But loot rn is kind of a joke. 39 people stop MC and wait 15min so a Veteran can have a shot at loot (Again im fine with this) but 30 minutes later we open roll Cloak of Shrouded Mists to 7 different people whom IMO 5 did not even deserve a shot at rolling (myself included). Sometimes open roll, sometimes pass bc of Tier bonus, sometimes pass bc.. idk some1 on discord says Oh they've wanted that item for awhile so lets just give it to them. It's all over the place.

Seems as though there's an Open Roll system, unless a Veteran determines it shouldn't be for w.e reason. Isnt this just Veteran loot council with extra steps anyways?

Neither of these systems are wrong IMO. Going back and forth when you feel like it is. Loot council items or open roll. Or at least tell people ahead of time whats reserved. Or we can continue to make it up as we go.. w.e just a suggestion.

[Chirpy]

I get the stress of running a loot system, I've done it before in the past. It does have to change to something more fair though, while remaining consistent after that. Some vets might be willing to help with the implementation and upkeep as well to take some of the stress off raid leaders shoulders. Worth it to ask, unless we end up going to a system that doesn't require upkeep anyway.

[Probichaudb]

Seems as though there's an Open Roll system, unless a Veteran determines it shouldn't be for w.e reason. Isnt this just Veteran loot council with extra steps anyways?

I agree that this roll system as it is isn't set and thats the problem. If the idea behind the choice of a roll system is to reward those who put efforts on progressing (like discussed above : consummables, raid presence, etc.) while having in mind a priority list (that is giving an item to a class that gets a true benefit from it) it would be a good choice.

While we set the roll system, I'd temporary use Loot Council.

It was upsetting for me tonight to attend the whole raid for a shot at one item, only to lose to a player attending for their 3rd time with one pre-raid bis item and otherwise in greens. Newer players have so many items available to them to win in future raids and I'm totally gutted.

For now, the best option is to get in communication with other people playing your class. Trepp made us join (mages) a channel to discuss about loot in raid. It would have been a place where you could point out your situation. No rules are involved here : just understanding what would be equity. While waiting for a change, that might be the best avenue. Us, new players, would understand the situation and we wouldn't want to engender upsetting results.

Camil

[Hejtr]

Okay, that loot council did took us by surprise.

I do think the council is the best solution you came up with lately, but still it sucks for people that cant properly understand what is going on, what determines who has been raiding for a long time and who did what to deserve stuff. And soft reserve is just nonsense, like if your item doesnt drop and someone elses does, they can just reserve your item next time and might win it.

Anyway, I still cant understand why you didnt go with a system like DKP like months ago.
Mainspec rollers would bid first then the others.
You get points for attendece.
Longer raiding people would have better chance to win the item they need and what they are aiming for in that long period of time.
Fresh 60 would win items noone needs anymore and which will progress them further.
The progress/earn points system is pretty clear and you get what you deserve.
There would be no stupidy lucky rolls that give crazy loot to not even pre-raid bis geared members.
You wouldnt have to spend shitton of time thinging about who deservers what in a crazy council way or creating a completely new system like soft reserve.
There wouldnt be people that wouldnt understand whats going on. Even now there is a new DKP raid system brewing from pissed players.


Just get us all to DKP. We do have atendance logs for like 6 months at least so give everybody points according to that and lets start the biding game.