[Paladin] How much does Holy Strike change paladin viability?

[Pumpkinbot]

This is something that I feel needs more theorycrafting. In vanilla, Retribution was never really used because they go OOM so quickly, and Protection was good at AoE tanking, but not much else, so most paladins went Holy.

But with the introduction of Holy Strike, how has this affected Ret and Prot? Is Ret better or worse on mana? Does this change how we spec or gear, since Holy Strike is affected by spell power? What about the single target threat for Prot? Should we consider allowing a paladin to judge Crusader on the boss?

[Velite]

Holy strike has no effect on paladin viability in raids. Also the gear doesn't change since Holy Strike scales from physical and spell damage but scales more with physical.

To be clear it does increase your threat output and dps output, but at best, it's just an extra snap aggro tool (which kings works for too and holy strike will dequeue if you cast kings so you have to choose 1), and for dps at the high end, like naxx with world buffs, it adds 10% more dps. But 10% of 600 is 60 so not much.

The main reason why the actual impact isn't that huge in raids is that it's an on next hit, and not an extra attack, so really it's like if you removed heroic strike from warriors, they'd still be just as viable as they are now.

But Holy Strike doesn't change the fact that ret by itself is the 2nd lowest dps spec in vanilla. And protection lacks a taunt, so Holy Strike has no effect on how people view non-holy paladins.

[Archaureous]

Our damage output for soloing is increased significantly with some guaranteed damage, and in PvP it hurts like a some bish.

[Hardwelsam]

Holly strike is Good single target spell,but not deal so much dmg.
If u looking for the reason ,
"does holly strike save paladin in Classic ?" ,the Answer,no.
Holly strike its simply make our leveling gameplay easier,but if u Think,this Will make the class top1 dps,sorry,but no.

[Nerasw]

Why not buff it to scale better then to not keep paladins as PH class?

[Sinrek]

Why not buff it to scale better then to not keep paladins as PH class?

Paladins aren't a pure dps class. They have it better as support. One of the best healers - sure. They weren't designed for huge dps output. Compensatory mechanics.

[Velite]

Why not buff it to scale better then to not keep paladins as PH class?

The correct direction to making ret paladin viable is not to buff the damage output, but to buff how well they can support their group compared to a protection and holy paladin, in this respect they offer the least support which is why they are not considered viable.

This was the direction blizzard wanted to do with the class which is why they did not add Holy Strike to vanilla, it turned paladin's contribution as ret as just pure dps when it should be some dps mixed with some support.

IT IS POSSIBLE TO LET PALADINS DPS IN VANILLA, BUT... not as a rogue or a warrior would. They have to be a support dps otherwise nobody would play warrior or rogue if paladins were equal dps. But this does not mean they have to be an inferior choice as a dps slot which is what they currently are, especially since paladin blessings and shaman totems don't stack, on turtle ret is even more inferior and Holy Strike does NOT compensate for the gap.

Tbc did a good job at this. Paladin dps got buffed to the point where it is acceptable but not crazy good like hunters/warlocks, but they provide blessing and a crit buff for the raid, so you take one anyway.

[Nerasw]

Why not buff it to scale better then to not keep paladins as PH class?

Paladins aren't a pure dps class. They have it better as support. One of the best healers - sure. They weren't designed for huge dps output. Compensatory mechanics.

Ye, thats y paly buffs do not stack with wf so any nonholy paladin loses slot for raid. So for now there is no supports.

[Nerasw]

Why not buff it to scale better then to not keep paladins as PH class?

The correct direction to making ret paladin viable is not to buff the damage output, but to buff how well they can support their group compared to a protection and holy paladin, in this respect they offer the least support which is why they are not considered viable.

This was the direction blizzard wanted to do with the class which is why they did not add Holy Strike to vanilla, it turned paladin's contribution as ret as just pure dps when it should be some dps mixed with some support.

IT IS POSSIBLE TO LET PALADINS DPS IN VANILLA, BUT... not as a rogue or a warrior would. They have to be a support dps otherwise nobody would play warrior or rogue if paladins were equal dps. But this does not mean they have to be an inferior choice as a dps slot which is what they currently are, especially since paladin blessings and shaman totems don't stack, on turtle ret is even more inferior and Holy Strike does NOT compensate for the gap.

Tbc did a good job at this. Paladin dps got buffed to the point where it is acceptable but not crazy good like hunters/warlocks, but they provide blessing and a crit buff for the raid, so you take one anyway.

So!? For now HS is shit as ability cuz its not an instant, not a reset for AA. So all u get is 34% SP on top of regular AA. Nothing more and on cd (8sec)
Im axtually like to be sup. But for now we get no support and no dps as a dps spec. What about tank? U think it is better? No.
All u write is logicaly right. But is result?
There is only two ways. Tweak dmg numbers or numbers on auras/buffs. Personaly i want to see less duration more power buffs that proc when we do/get dmg. Support need to do somthing else aside from healing.

[Lahire]

Again I see a lot of confusion between "viable" and "optimal".
Viable means : is it possible to perform in this role without ruining the effort of all other players?
Optimal means : is it the best at this role?

Paladin dps is viable. Always has been. You won't lose a raid because you have a chad retadin.
If you want something non-viable, it's something like : priest tank. War healer. "Non-viable" means impossible to perform adequately at a specific role.

As long as people are confusing viable for optimal, the discussion is poisoned and people are discriminated for nothing. To refuse a dps paladin, or a dps druid, for a raid is just being an ass for nothing. Unless you wanna speedrun (in this case yes you only need perfect optimal composition or you lose seconds/minutes on the timer). Some raiders build their composition like they are Apes preping for the world first. That is ludicrous and spawns toxic attitude towards non-optimal (but viable) players.

BTW the other components of dps log (gear, conso, food, WB, skill) are far more important than class. A full bis + conso + WB paladin will flatten average rogues and war on the dps meter. Just looking at the class is not the brightest move.

Paladin is not an optimal dps. It will never be optimal and shouldn't be. Paladins already are top heal, good levelers, utility belts. Not all classes have to be optimal at everything (it would ruin the class design, like in retail). And that's ok, as long as all classes are viable at 2 roles. Which paladin is.

[Sinrek]

Again I see a lot of confusion between "viable" and "optimal".
Viable means : is it possible to perform in this role without ruining the effort of all other players?
Optimal means : is it the best at this role?

Paladin dps is viable. Always has been. You won't lose a raid because you have a chad retadin.
If you want something non-viable, it's something like : priest tank. War healer. "Non-viable" means impossible to perform adequately at a specific role.

As long as people are confusing viable for optimal, the discussion is poisoned and people are discriminated for nothing. To refuse a dps paladin, or a dps druid, for a raid is just being an ass for nothing. Unless you wanna speedrun (in this case yes you only need perfect optimal composition or you lose seconds/minutes on the timer). Some raiders build their composition like they are Apes preping for the world first. That is ludicrous and spawns toxic attitude towards non-optimal (but viable) players.

BTW the other components of dps log (gear, conso, food, WB, skill) are far more important than class. A full bis + conso + WB paladin will flatten average rogues and war on the dps meter. Just looking at the class is not the brightest move.

Paladin is not an optimal dps. It will never be optimal and shouldn't be. Paladins already are top heal, good levelers, utility belts. Not all classes have to be optimal at everything (it would ruin the class design, like in retail). And that's ok, as long as all classes are viable at 2 roles. Which paladin is.

Hear hear! Common sense preaching!

Voice of reason.
Unironically.

[Velite]

Again I see a lot of confusion between "viable" and "optimal".
Viable means : is it possible to perform in this role without ruining the effort of all other players?
Optimal means : is it the best at this role?

Paladin dps is viable. Always has been. You won't lose a raid because you have a chad retadin.
If you want something non-viable, it's something like : priest tank. War healer. "Non-viable" means impossible to perform adequately at a specific role.

As long as people are confusing viable for optimal, the discussion is poisoned and people are discriminated for nothing. To refuse a dps paladin, or a dps druid, for a raid is just being an ass for nothing. Unless you wanna speedrun (in this case yes you only need perfect optimal composition or you lose seconds/minutes on the timer). Some raiders build their composition like they are Apes preping for the world first. That is ludicrous and spawns toxic attitude towards non-optimal (but viable) players.

BTW the other components of dps log (gear, conso, food, WB, skill) are far more important than class. A full bis + conso + WB paladin will flatten average rogues and war on the dps meter. Just looking at the class is not the brightest move.

Paladin is not an optimal dps. It will never be optimal and shouldn't be. Paladins already are top heal, good levelers, utility belts. Not all classes have to be optimal at everything (it would ruin the class design, like in retail). And that's ok, as long as all classes are viable at 2 roles. Which paladin is.

sad prot noises, pve spec not even viable for pve.