Mana from Spirit while continuously casting...

[Roxanneflowers]

Almost all of the information below was originally discovered (by me) while playing on Darrowshire (Elysium) before switching to Symmetry. Fortunately, I was rather proud of my discoveries and saved them before Symmetry's forums got overrun by spambots due to a lack of defenses. I don't think I've ever seen anyone else ever do the kind of theory crafting research that I've put into this analysis of how to (Ab)Use the 5 Second Rule so as to gain mana from spirit WHILE CASTING CONTINUOUSLY.

Enjoy …



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This is one of the discoveries that I've made playing a Starshards Priest, which can result in what feels like an almost (almost!) bottomless mana pool when playing caster builds with lots of Spirit in them. This requires a somewhat different "style" of playing the game, where the desire is to minimize NET mana loss/cost over time while continuously alternating between Cast spells and Channeled spells.

The KEY discovery here is that ...

• Cast spells deduct their mana cost at the END of casting.
• Channeled spells deduct their mana cost at the BEGINNING of channeling.

By following a Cast spell with a Channeled spell, you put the mana costs of the two spells effectively back-to-back such that the mana costs for the two spells happen very quickly in close proximity to each other. However, the 5 Second Rule of spellcasting, which applies an invisible debuff for 5 seconds that reduces mana recovery from Spirit by -100% for those 5 seconds, is only invoked when mana is SPENT. If your entire Cast/Channel/repeat spell rotation lasts 6+ seconds, you will be able to spellcast more or less continuously but be able to recover SOME mana from Spirit while casting regardless of having talents that give you mana recovery from Spirit while casting. Having those talents will help "more" than not having them, but the key here is that with the "right" spell rotation, it is perfectly possible to recover mana from Spirit WHILE casting ... even without having talents (or spells like Mage Armor) that allow you to do so.

The mana benefits of this style of casting begin to accrue on the first repeat of the Cast+Channel spell rotation. Depending on how much Spirit you have in your build, the difference in mana pool endurance can become quite remarkable (speaking from experience on this point!). This is because in most cases, the amount of mana that you can recover from Spirit during your Cast+Channel spell rotation can quickly exceed anything you might have been able to get from stacking Mp5 mods on your gear ... which is something to think about for builds that feel mana starved.

The data tables below cover all conditions of mana recovery from Spirit while casting from 0-100% in 5% increments.


Up to 5 second duration Cast+Channel rotation
Formula: base mana recovery = mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation

• 0% base mana recovery = 0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 5% base mana recovery = 5% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 10% base mana recovery = 10% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 15% base mana recovery = 15% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 20% base mana recovery = 20% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 25% base mana recovery = 25% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 30% base mana recovery = 30% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 35% base mana recovery = 35% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 40% base mana recovery = 40% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 45% base mana recovery = 45% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 50% base mana recovery = 50% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 55% base mana recovery = 55% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 60% base mana recovery = 60% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 65% base mana recovery = 65% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 70% base mana recovery = 70% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 75% base mana recovery = 75% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 80% base mana recovery = 80% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 85% base mana recovery = 85% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 90% base mana recovery = 90% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 95% base mana recovery = 95% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 100% base mana recovery = 100% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation

6 second duration Cast+Channel rotation
Formula: 33.3% + (base mana recovery % / 1.5) = mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation

• 0% base mana recovery = 33.3% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 5% base mana recovery = 36.7% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 10% base mana recovery = 40.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 15% base mana recovery = 43.3% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 20% base mana recovery = 46.7% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 25% base mana recovery = 50.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 30% base mana recovery = 53.3% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 35% base mana recovery = 56.7% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 40% base mana recovery = 60.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 45% base mana recovery = 63.3% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 50% base mana recovery = 66.7% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 55% base mana recovery = 70.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 60% base mana recovery = 73.3% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 65% base mana recovery = 76.7% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 70% base mana recovery = 80.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 75% base mana recovery = 83.3% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 80% base mana recovery = 86.7% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 85% base mana recovery = 90.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 90% base mana recovery = 93.3% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 95% base mana recovery = 96.7% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 100% base mana recovery = 100% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation

8 second duration Cast+Channel rotation
Formula: 50% + (base mana recovery % / 2) = mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation

• 0% base mana recovery = 50.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 5% base mana recovery = 52.5% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 10% base mana recovery = 55.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 15% base mana recovery = 57.5% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 20% base mana recovery = 60.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 25% base mana recovery = 62.5% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 30% base mana recovery = 65.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 35% base mana recovery = 67.5% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 40% base mana recovery = 70.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 45% base mana recovery = 72.5% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 50% base mana recovery = 75.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 55% base mana recovery = 77.5% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 60% base mana recovery = 80.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 65% base mana recovery = 82.5% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 70% base mana recovery = 85.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 75% base mana recovery = 87.5% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 80% base mana recovery = 90.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 85% base mana recovery = 92.5% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 90% base mana recovery = 95.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 95% base mana recovery = 97.5% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 100% base mana recovery = 100% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation

10 second duration Cast+Channel rotation
Formula: 60% + (base mana recovery % / 2.5) = mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation

• 0% base mana recovery = 60.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 5% base mana recovery = 62.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 10% base mana recovery = 64.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 15% base mana recovery = 66.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 20% base mana recovery = 68.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 25% base mana recovery = 70.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 30% base mana recovery = 72.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 35% base mana recovery = 74.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 40% base mana recovery = 76.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 45% base mana recovery = 78.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 50% base mana recovery = 80.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 55% base mana recovery = 82.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 60% base mana recovery = 84.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 65% base mana recovery = 86.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 70% base mana recovery = 88.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 75% base mana recovery = 90.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 80% base mana recovery = 92.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 85% base mana recovery = 94.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 90% base mana recovery = 96.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 95% base mana recovery = 98.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 100% base mana recovery = 100% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation

12 second duration Cast+Channel rotation
Formula: 66.7% + (base mana recovery % / 3) = mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation

• 0% base mana recovery = 66.7% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 5% base mana recovery = 68.3% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 10% base mana recovery = 70.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 15% base mana recovery = 71.7% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 20% base mana recovery = 73.3% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 25% base mana recovery = 75.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 30% base mana recovery = 76.7% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 35% base mana recovery = 78.3% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 40% base mana recovery = 80.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 45% base mana recovery = 81.7% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 50% base mana recovery = 83.3% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 55% base mana recovery = 85.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 60% base mana recovery = 86.7% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 65% base mana recovery = 88.3% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 70% base mana recovery = 90.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 75% base mana recovery = 91.7% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 80% base mana recovery = 93.3% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 85% base mana recovery = 95.0% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 90% base mana recovery = 96.7% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 95% base mana recovery = 98.3% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation
• 100% base mana recovery = 100% mana recovery from Spirit during spell rotation

Consolidated comparison table of Cast+Channel rotations
% base mana recovery = Up to 5 second | 6 second | 8 second | 10 second | 12 second

• 00% base mana recovery = 00% | 33.3% | 50.0% | 60.0% | 66.7%
• 05% base mana recovery = 05% | 36.7% | 52.5% | 62.0% | 68.3%
• 10% base mana recovery = 10% | 40.0% | 55.0% | 64.0% | 70.0%
• 15% base mana recovery = 15% | 43.3% | 57.5% | 66.0% | 71.7%
• 20% base mana recovery = 20% | 46.7% | 60.0% | 68.0% | 73.3%
• 25% base mana recovery = 25% | 50.0% | 62.5% | 70.0% | 75.0%
• 30% base mana recovery = 30% | 53.3% | 65.0% | 72.0% | 76.7%
• 35% base mana recovery = 35% | 56.7% | 67.5% | 74.0% | 78.3%
• 40% base mana recovery = 40% | 60.0% | 70.0% | 76.0% | 80.0%
• 45% base mana recovery = 45% | 63.3% | 72.5% | 78.0% | 81.7%
• 50% base mana recovery = 50% | 66.7% | 75.0% | 80.0% | 83.3%
• 55% base mana recovery = 55% | 70.0% | 77.5% | 82.0% | 85.0%
• 60% base mana recovery = 60% | 73.3% | 80.0% | 84.0% | 86.7%
• 65% base mana recovery = 65% | 76.7% | 82.5% | 86.0% | 88.3%
• 70% base mana recovery = 70% | 80.0% | 85.0% | 88.0% | 90.0%
• 75% base mana recovery = 75% | 83.3% | 87.5% | 90.0% | 91.7%
• 80% base mana recovery = 80% | 86.7% | 90.0% | 92.0% | 93.3%
• 85% base mana recovery = 85% | 90.0% | 92.5% | 94.0% | 95.0%
• 90% base mana recovery = 90% | 93.3% | 95.0% | 96.0% | 96.7%
• 95% base mana recovery = 95% | 96.7% | 97.5% | 98.0% | 98.3%
• 100% base mana recovery = 100% | 100% | 100% | 100% | 100%

To use these tables, simply combine the Cast Time plus Channel Duration of the spells you want to pair together.

Untalented Shadow Bolt + Drain Life/Mana = 3s + 5s = 8 second rotation (Warlock)
Untalented Frostbolt + Arcane Missiles = 3s + 5s = 8 second rotation (Mage)
Untalented Fireball + Arcane Missiles = 3.5s + 5s = 8.5 second rotation (Mage)
Untalented Holy Fire + Starshards = 3.5s + 6s = 9.5 second rotation (Night Elf only Priest)
Pyroblast + Arcane Missiles = 6s + 5s = 11 second rotation (Mage)

Instant Shadowbolt (Nightfall proc) + Drain Life/Mana = 1.5s (global cooldown accounting) + 5s = 6.5 seconds (Warlock)
Untalented Holy Fire + Starshards + melee swing = 3.5s + 6s + ~1s = ~10+ second rotation (Night Elf only Priest)
Pyroblast + Arcane Missiles + melee swing = 6s + 5s + 1s = ~12+ second rotation (Mage)

Once you know how long it will take to repeat your casting cycle, simply refer to the tables above and compute how much mana is recovered from Spirit based on how much mana recovery you have from talents/items/etc. on your caster. In cases where your casting time doesn't neatly coincide with the 6/8/10/12 second breakpoints, simply round your spell rotation's time DOWN to the 6/8/10/12 table "below" your spell rotation's actual duration to figure the actual Reliable Minimum amount of mana that you'd be recovering from Spirit while spellcasting that fast. You might get more mana recovered than that, depending on the timing of your casting, but you won't go LOWER than that, which can help with pre-figuring how useful Spirit vs Mp5 mods on gear would be to your overall mana endurance while continuously casting.

Key takeaway here is that if you can Cast/Channel/repeat your spells, you'll be able to recover mana from Spirit while continuously casting and you'll recover MORE mana from Spirit the longer your Cast+Channel rotation takes to complete, because of how the 5 Second Rule of Spellcasting "works" around those combined cycle times. In other words, slower is better for mana recovery from Spirit while casting continuously ... and therefore more "efficient" in terms of net mana lost per damage output onto target(s) over that time span.



Ironically, Mages and Warlocks will see the greatest return on increasing their mana endurance when playing with this factor using a Cast+Channel spell rotation, but Night Elf Priests using this strategy with Starshards (their Priest racial spell) also stand to gain a huge boost in the efficiency of their mana consumption. The Spiritual Guidance talent in the Holy tree along with the Spirit Tap talent in the Shadow tree can turn Night Elf Priests into "powerhouses" of spellpower and mana recovery while continuously casting, making their playstyle very "mage-like" in a damage production role when they can land killing blows. It's one of those things that needs to be experienced directly in order to appreciate.

Granted, these spell rotations are going to be angling to maximize Damage Produced Per Net Mana Lost over the duration of casting, rather than going for the more typical Max Damage Per Second output, but the compensation for that, particularly with high Spirit builds is minimal downtime between kills and a lack of needing to stop to eat/drink, making for a rather resilient playstyle. Since the emphasis here is on the efficient use of resources to produce sustained pressure damage, rather than instantaneous spikes of burst damage, these spell rotations will often be better suited to PvE play than to PvP play.

Besides ... what could be more "turtle" than slowcasting for better net mana loss efficiency?



Unfortunately, Druids do not have any channeled spells that they can repeatedly cast (Hurricane and Tranquility have cooldowns too long to be made part of a repeating spell rotation), while Paladins don't have any channeled spells at all (at least none that would ever be a part of a repeating rotation). Hunters do have a channeled spell (Mend Pet), but most Hunters aren't going to be using it repeatedly. Likewise, I'm also not aware of any Shaman spell rotations that would be able to make use of this discovery (sorry Shamans!).

[Balake]

While it is certainly an interesting strategy, it is important to remember that channeled abilities are affected by spell pushback very hard. Every auto taken (assuming no anti-pushback talents) while channeling will waste 0.9~ seconds off it's duration.

[Roxanneflowers]

While it is certainly an interesting strategy, it is important to remember that channeled abilities are affected by spell pushback very hard. Every auto taken (assuming no anti-pushback talents) while channeling will waste 0.9~ seconds off it's duration.

This is true ... which is why it's important to invest in spells/talents that prevent pushback on spellcasting to get the most use out of this strategy. So that's a different "layer" of build planning that takes different forms/paths with different classes. However, the basic underlying insight applies to any and all spellcasters who can repeat a Cast/Channel rotation of spells ... so in that respect the way that the game mechanics "work" under the hood around the 5 Second Rule of Spellcasting are class agnostic.

But yes, the next level challenge is to deliberately build your character(s) in ways that minimize pushback on casting, especially while channeling. Mages have the Improved Arcane Missiles talent, Warlocks have the Fel Concentration talent and Priests have the Power Word: Shield spell ... all of which are measures that prevent spell pushback.

[Balake]

I personally would not use it as a warlock because casting shadowbolt is very mana-inefficient in the first place, and soulfire has a 1 minute cd (sadly). It's better to cast efficient spells and use life-tap for mana regen, than to cast inefficient spells and rely on spirit ticks (which are already bad for warlocks as we don't scale with it as well).

[Roxanneflowers]

I personally would not use it as a warlock because casting shadowbolt is very mana-inefficient in the first place, and soulfire has a 1 minute cd (sadly). It's better to cast efficient spells and use life-tap for mana regen, than to cast inefficient spells and rely on spirit ticks (which are already bad for warlocks as we don't scale with it as well).

In this case I've actually tested it (on Symmetry before they went POOF!) and it actually works really well ... surprisingly so. In fact, I found myself wanting to stack Spellpower and Spirit on my Warlock(!), if you can believe that, because of how much "deeper" that made my mana pool due to the recovery of mana from spirit while continuously casting in effect making my spells "cost less mana" to cast than they otherwise would have if using a different spell rotation.

So while objectively you can legitimately say that Shadowbolt in mana inefficient to start with (which I'll readily agree it kind of is) ... when cast back to back with Drain Life on an 3+5=8s rotation the net mana cost for casting goes down somewhat dramatically due to the recovery of mana from spirit while you're casting. The net mana loss per rotation is so much less that you're actually better off "enough" to make up for the baseline deficiency in Shadowbolt. It's VERY different from One Button Spam casting of Shadowbolt where you don't recover any mana except from Lifetap (and/or Dark Pact). Again, it's one of those things you need to experience firsthand before a lot of the puzzle pieces will fall into place for you because it's so counter-intuitive from the get go ... hence why I'm posting this entire body of research so others can test it and judge for themselves. The beauty of that is that you don't need to make any talent point changes at all ... just simply try using a different spell rotation and see for yourself what happens. This makes the results not only accessible but also extremely easy to test for people so as to make cross-comparisons within the context of their own build(s).

The key, however, is that you need to stop thinking of Spirit as being your dump stat that serves no useful purpose while in combat. But in order to do that, you have to use this strategy in order to "weave" your way around how the 5 Second Rule of Spellcasting actually works under the hood.

[Balake]

It is of course drastically better than shadowbolt spam in terms of mana efficiency, but it is worse than two other playstyles that warlocks have. Drain tanking as well as voidwalker tanking are both slow paced playstyles just like the drainlife+shadowbolt rotation, only much more efficient and possibly does higher damage. Not to mention that all 3 classes that can do this also have access to wands that do very good dps at lower levels, cost no mana, and allow for full mana regen on top of it. Gravestone Scepter for example beats spamming shadowbolt/fire ball/smite in the 20-30 level range. My point is, in a warlock's case, dotting up a mob then wanding not only costs less mana per point of damage, but also allows for more mana regen. Immolate+CoA+corruption takes stops your mana regen for 6.5 seconds, then the rest of the fight has 100% mana regen as you just wand. But in the rotation case, you are using inefficient spells in terms of mana per point of damage, and only getting 3 seconds of free mana regen every 8 seconds.

I guess the same could be said for mages, they can kill a mob in for example 8 seconds, then spend 10 seconds drinking instead of taking the same time with that mob but keeping good mana regen for the whole fight thanks to the arcane missiles/pyroblast rotation.

[Roxanneflowers]

Again, I'm not saying this is the be all/end all, put your wands down and never use them again, kind of thing. I'm saying that it's an alternative that works.

In terms of sheer mana efficiency of damage output per mana lost, wand will always beat out anything else you could do thanks to the divide by zero error due to the fact that wands cost no mana to use (they're technically ranged weapons). However, if you're struggling with OOM more than you're comfortable with, this technique for spell rotations might offer a solution to countering that condition without needing to resort to use of your Wand (if you'd rather just keep casting spells).

[Balake]

Again, I'm not saying this is the be all/end all, put your wands down and never use them again, kind of thing. I'm saying that it's an alternative that works.

In terms of sheer mana efficiency of damage output per mana lost, wand will always beat out anything else you could do thanks to the divide by zero error due to the fact that wands cost no mana to use (they're technically ranged weapons). However, if you're struggling with OOM more than you're comfortable with, this technique for spell rotations might offer a solution to countering that condition without needing to resort to use of your Wand (if you'd rather just keep casting spells).

I suppose it is a matter of playstyle. Some people like to never stop casting spells, while others like quick kills with regen downtime, and others just want to wand things to death.

[Roxanneflowers]

I suppose it is a matter of playstyle. Some people like to never stop casting spells, while others like quick kills with regen downtime, and others just want to wand things to death.

Exactly. Playstyle.
It's not that one method is necessary "clearly superior!" to the alternatives so much as that the alternatives are comparable ways of achieving the same goals. Multiple paths which reach similar outcomes, which can then be tailored to the individual preferences of each Player.

It's kind of like the difference between fast weapons and slow weapons, in that regard. Some Players prefer to use fast weapons for the playstyle it produces, while others prefer slow weapons. Both styles are "viable" although there can be plenty of debate over which is "optimal" for other factors within the context(s) of specific builds. The key thing though is knowing that you have OPTIONS as to which path you want to take. After that, it's up to the Player(s) to weigh the relative merits of the alternatives to how THEY want to play the game for their own personal enjoyment.