Final Changelog for Class Changes coming in 1.16.1

[Chulain]

Loooks like we won't be playing this update either

[Soleman]

Although I'm not opposed to any of the class changes listed in this thread, on the contrary I actually welcome them, I would like to remind everyone that talent changes are not necessary to make a spec viable. Rather what was missing from the vanilla game was proper itemization.

To illustrate my point I have created an item for a spec that is near and dear to my heart -- the protection paladin.

https://dev.turtle-wow.org/#!/itemcreat ... JOVUxMIl0=

This could very simply be added as an additional reward item to the paladin class quest "The Tome of Valor" that you get at level 20. The taunt spell has an internal 12 sec cooldown so it's inferior to the warrior version by 2 sec. This should appease the "Hybrid Tax" crowd even though personally I find the concept of the hybrid tax to be outdated and moronic. Blizzard themselves confirmed this with later expansions to the game starting with TBC.

You could even implement upgrades to this item in subsequent class quests or by adding custom class quests that feature this item as a requirement. Similar to the Tier .5 upgrade quests. This would make it so that the item scales to end game but it would not be totally necessary.

The paladin would now have to make a difficult decision: Do I sacrifice the utility other relics provide in order to gain the ability to taunt?

Thoughts?

[Allwynd01]

I wish they would release this update already.

[Markuis]

As soon as it's released I'm returning to Twow. So I'm checking the forum almost daily.

[Reploidrocsa]

My guess is the team in charge of developing the class changes came to a halt for whateaver reason and now the staff won't dare tell us. AFAIK it's been months since they didn't make any progress on their private PTR server

[Projecx]

My guess is the team in charge of developing the class changes came to a halt for whateaver reason and now the staff won't dare tell us. AFAIK it's been months since they didn't make any progress on their private PTR server

They stopped around the same time Ukraine was invaded. Are we sure the developers are not Ukrainian themselves?

[Markuis]

My guess is the team in charge of developing the class changes came to a halt for whateaver reason and now the staff won't dare tell us. AFAIK it's been months since they didn't make any progress on their private PTR server

They stopped around the same time Ukraine was invaded. Are we sure the developers are not Ukrainian themselves?

I think everyone would be ok with any info regarding the release of the update, even if it means there will be no update. It's people working on this after all.

[Ghola]

Please please reconsider moving seal of command to row 5 for paladin, I've always enjoyed holy/ret hybrid with holy shock + seal of command for big chunky spell burst damage and your talent changes are removing my favorite way to play the class. The talent changes shouldn't be removing unique and fun builds from the game

EDIT: Allow me to make my case for why I enjoy this build and it should remain in the game. Since your main source of burst comes from divine favor + holy shock and hammer of justice + judgment of command, you must decide when you use these cds whether you are using them offensively or defensively. This is well balanced and still gives paladins the ability to confirm kills, something paladin majorly lacks in classic. This build also scales extremely well off of spellpower, allowing you to wear spellpower plate gear that's intended for paladins and still be a decent healer who can dish out some burst to help their team out in pvp

[Redmagejoe]

Please please reconsider moving seal of command to row 5 for paladin, I've always enjoyed holy/ret hybrid with holy shock + seal of command for big chunky spell burst damage and your talent changes are removing my favorite way to play the class. The talent changes shouldn't be removing unique and fun builds from the game

These changes are final and they're not making any changes prior to the patch dropping. They will likely be evaluating potential needs for tweaks or rebalancing after a month or so of the patch being out, but it's literally pointless to ask for anything to be changed until we actually get the patch.

[Ghola]

Please please reconsider moving seal of command to row 5 for paladin, I've always enjoyed holy/ret hybrid with holy shock + seal of command for big chunky spell burst damage and your talent changes are removing my favorite way to play the class. The talent changes shouldn't be removing unique and fun builds from the game

These changes are final and they're not making any changes prior to the patch dropping. They will likely be evaluating potential needs for tweaks or rebalancing after a month or so of the patch being out, but it's literally pointless to ask for anything to be changed until we actually get the patch.

cool

[Yverebia]

any news ?

[Allwynd01]

January ended a long time ago. I even got a job and my life changed drastically.

[Yverebia]

a little light on this situation will be very helpful. i with me many of us (i am sure ) will understand if announced changes are abandoned or delayed till some point in time. no problem, if we wont get class changes soon or at all, i am still enjoying playing . But confusion , certainly, can be frustrating . why not say something ?

[Torta]

We're absolutely sorry about this delay. During the development of this patch, we faced a lot of obstacles with both technical and human parts: some people were forced to prioritize real life over the project, and some things we couldn't figure out for a longer time.

However, development is ongoing even if we haven't posted specifically on the forums, and I can assure you that the patch release date is within sight.

[Hibernate]

Can we get a date from you Torta? Or at least the month you plan on release?

[Redmagejoe]

Can we get a date from you Torta? Or at least the month you plan on release?

Don't pester the team for exact dates, because the last time they gave a concrete date, as happens in development, the deadline came and went and people have been angry or memeing or etc ever since. Be patient, we finally got a response. The thing about development is that unexpected difficulties come up, technical limitations exist, and you don't always have all the resources to do everything under ideal circumstances in a perfectly timely manner. Developers' worst enemy is deadlines, and that's how shitty games get shipped out just in time for Christmas.

tl;dr the team is working hard to bring everyone the patch as soon as possible with as few problems as possible, so please just give them your patience and understanding.

[Projecx]

We're absolutely sorry about this delay. During the development of this patch, we faced a lot of obstacles with both technical and human parts: some people were forced to prioritize real life over the project, and some things we couldn't figure out for a longer time.

However, development is ongoing even if we haven't posted specifically on the forums, and I can assure you that the patch release date is within sight.

Thank you for replying. I'm sure most of us are understanding. It was just the total lack of information and explanation for the delay that had many of us concerned.

I hope everyone on the team is doing well and putting their family and personal lives ahead of development of this game. We must all have our properties straight.

[Markuis]

We're absolutely sorry about this delay. During the development of this patch, we faced a lot of obstacles with both technical and human parts: some people were forced to prioritize real life over the project, and some things we couldn't figure out for a longer time.

However, development is ongoing even if we haven't posted specifically on the forums, and I can assure you that the patch release date is within sight.

Thank you for replying. I'm sure most of us are understanding. It was just the total lack of information and explanation for the delay that had many of us concerned.

I hope everyone on the team is doing well and putting their family and personal lives ahead of development of this game. We must all have our properties straight.

+1

It's people behind this patch after all.

[Krizpmango]

We're absolutely sorry about this delay. During the development of this patch, we faced a lot of obstacles with both technical and human parts: some people were forced to prioritize real life over the project, and some things we couldn't figure out for a longer time.

However, development is ongoing even if we haven't posted specifically on the forums, and I can assure you that the patch release date is within sight.

So great getting some info! Ofc the team should prioritize real life!

[Flameroller]

Very disappointing.

[Redmagejoe]

Very disappointing.

You're free to play somewhere else.

[Mikik3jr]

Although I'm not opposed to any of the class changes listed in this thread, on the contrary I actually welcome them, I would like to remind everyone that talent changes are not necessary to make a spec viable. Rather what was missing from the vanilla game was proper itemization.

To illustrate my point I have created an item for a spec that is near and dear to my heart -- the protection paladin.

https://dev.turtle-wow.org/#!/itemcreat ... JOVUxMIl0=

This could very simply be added as an additional reward item to the paladin class quest "The Tome of Valor" that you get at level 20. The taunt spell has an internal 12 sec cooldown so it's inferior to the warrior version by 2 sec. This should appease the "Hybrid Tax" crowd even though personally I find the concept of the hybrid tax to be outdated and moronic. Blizzard themselves confirmed this with later expansions to the game starting with TBC.

You could even implement upgrades to this item in subsequent class quests or by adding custom class quests that feature this item as a requirement. Similar to the Tier .5 upgrade quests. This would make it so that the item scales to end game but it would not be totally necessary.

The paladin would now have to make a difficult decision: Do I sacrifice the utility other relics provide in order to gain the ability to taunt?

Thoughts?

My thoughts are that paladin does not need taunt. A tank paladin may only need a buff on "Improved Righteous Fury" talent to generate more threat from holy damage and as you said some spell power tanking gear.

We have 3 kinds of tanks:
- Warrior: Good single target, not so good AOE threat.
- Druid: Can't parry, but has higher dodge and armor, bit weaker for single target than a warrior, but has okay aoe threat.
- Paladin: Not that great on single target, but good AOE + single target threat generation.

Putting the taunt on Seal of Justice is a huge waste for paladins. All the threat comes from holy damage, if you use Seal of Justice, you don't deal additional holy damage due not using Seal of Righteousness AND if you stun the enemy, they don't attack you, so you don't block their attacks and your spikes + Blessing of Sanctuary + Holy Shield won't trigger on them for the threat. And this talent requires 3 points.

I think paladins should have the tank identity that they don't have taunt, but have really strong threat output. To reach this aim buffing the "Improved Righteous Fury" talent is way easier than to implement 1-2 items into EVERY dungeon for the itemization.

[Redmagejoe]

The Paladin changes are fine. Tankadins do better single target threat than you're giving them credit for and can still struggle with AoE threat even with Consecrate due to mana constraints. You also mention using Seal of Justice and not generating threat, but that's not how Paladins work at all. I wonder if you've played Paladin for an extended period of time, because it seems as if you have a misconception about Seals and Judgements. The idea is that you have your Judgement on an enemy and your Seal, like Righteousness, and if someone does something ridiculous or a boss dumps threat, you switch to SoJ, JUDGE it which instantly removes that Seal from you and taunts the target, and then put your usual Seal back on. This does not cause the enemy to be stunned, but prevents them from "running in fear" and also Taunts them. Then when Judgement is off cooldown, you place another Judgement on them like Wisdom, Light, or Crusader, while using Seal of Righteousness for threat.

There's no reason they shouldn't have a taunt, especially since they have less active threat generation than a Warrior or a Druid (because of cooldowns on their only 2 active threat spells, Holy Strike and Judgement of Righteousness) and because a party of randos can't be counted on to not go full ape-shit DPS before you even get into melee range. It also has a mana and CD requirement to take into account, so it's not as if it's a magical fix-all button. There's no good argument that can be made not to include it when it's meant, as all Taunts are, to be a contingency, especially in situations where bosses dump threat. I do not understand this "these classes are supposed to tank in this specific way" mentality that somehow precludes taunt being in their kit. Blizzard and Turtle have both acknowledge that vanilla class design was far from perfect and there's no good reason Paladins didn't already have taunt prior to TBC and Wrath. Let's please come up with actual mechanically-valid reasons to argue against something that would make the tank class actually able to tank.

Signed, someone who has been playing Tankadin without these changes for 53 levels and, across dozens of parties, can tell you that the taunt is not NECESSARY but would be EXTREMELY WELCOME in a number of scenarios.

[Absolon]

from what i understand, problem with paladin is either you go with tons of spelldamage, and output really good threat, or you equip actual tanking gear, and produce no threat. having tank gear with alot spelldamage creates balance issues, so i second the idea of buffing threat modifiers instead

[Jesterjacks]

I won’t be playing WotLK

Still, would like a release date. Needs a fresh coat of paint.

[Kwayver]

The Paladin changes don't go far enough to address mana problems. Refunding 20% of base seal cost is good in that it will encourage rets to use a higher rank of the seal, however the minor amount of mana restored by this is immediately countered by crusader strike's mana investment in the rotation.
Unless Paladin gear has been tuned differently in twow, it still has spirit on it. Without a mechanic to allow % mana regen while in combat (like so many other classes have access to) this could be utilised to solve the problem and make gear upgrades feel like progress. Either flat % increase of combat regen, or increase the mana awarded by judgement off wisdom scaling to the paladins spirit.
Also make the crusader strike stacking effect a buff on the Paladin rather than a debuff on the enemy. It's hard enough justifying a debuff slot with judgement of wisdom/crusader. Alternatively, cause the debuff to increase ALL magic damage taken by the target. This delegates nightfall duties to paladins without the need to hold a specific weapon. Would prefer it was a buff, this is just a few options to consider

[Apimius]

please give priest a spell hit talent in the discipline/holy tree for smite priests. Also please consider lowering the mana cost on holy nova a bit

[Dalijon]

As a druid, I'm really excited for these changes. For me, Turtle WoW is all about the nostalgia of Vanilla, but instead of vertical growth like expansions, it can grow horizontally through new content and class tweaks. I understand the wait. Most people are looking forward to changes, but some are opposed or are not sure. If you make these changes, it is important that they don't get rolled out with tons of bugs. Sending nothing but love from the USA - keep up the great work!

[Allwynd01]

Melee Hunter should be able to place traps even when in combat.

[Crazyhelix]

Melee Hunter should be able to place traps even when in combat.

Absolutely true. Im w8ing this changes in classic like servers all my life. It's very logical but nobody do this...

BIg job about Pala's. But...not enought:
1) Where 10 min Blesses?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!??!?!?!!? There is another classic based custom server and they finally after many years did it and u dont even know how much pleasure it gives. 5 minut regular buff = idiotism
2) One-handed weapon spec - 10% for 5 talent points, really???? It mb norm for DD, but for tanking looks so expensive. 3 points! 3/6/10% (same for war tanks)
3) Mb should give Improved Righteous Fury 2/4/6% bonus for incoming heal and move it from row 3 to 5?
only 3 more changes and Pala will shine)))

Again about Hunters. It's shame. BM does so low DPS. Pet cannot survive in all kind of situations. Absolutely stupid channeling heal (who will do the damage while hunter healing? Bill Gates?). And broken surv....
BM
1) Thick hide - too weak
2) Bestial swiftness - need to add 10% constant speed buff (or even merge with Pathfinding to make both hunter and pet faster with 1 talent point - good move)
3) Unleashed fury - up to 25%
4) Improved mend pet - add +5/10% bonus heal, chanse for tick up to 25/50 (and dont forget about instance HoT Mend Pet - not channeling!)
5) Spirit Bond - had to be doubled 1/2% every 5 sec (not 10 omg!)
6) Bestial discipline - 10/20 really?????? 25/50 - norm for tier 5 talent (in BC blizz made 50/100)
7) Need to add talent to adding attribute scalling from hunter gear
8) Need to add in 5-7 rows small bonuses to additional pet training points (we r Beast master or f%*king clown with Cat?)
MM
1) Improved Hunter mark - useless. Need to add 20/40/60/80/100 bonus AP with half bonus to melee
2) Separate Arcane shot and Aimed shot CD's
3) Improved Arcane shot - useless
4) Improved Serpent sting - 2 weak and expensive = useless
5) Improved scorpid Sting = useless
6) Barrage need depended talent (or just bonus) to discrease Volley casting time when taking damage
7) IMHO all MM branch is VERY BAD and had to be remastered (i got my own version that realize several version of MM that all effective in difference situations)
Surv
Dont have time 2 chew obvious - absolutely broken branch. Surv has to had put traps in combat (in my version he pays with range penalty - i like this more). Or even make him full melee (more radically - not my favorite, but anyway good).

[Kwayver]

Add the following to Two-handed weapon specialisation:
Causes the paladin to regenerate mana equal to 2%/4%/6% of physical damage caused.

This provides more sustain which will scale with gear and provides more access to Holy Strike, while ensuring Holy Strike does not become self-reliant on mana. Holy Strike should operate as a mana dump and only be used in the amount which the gear can support through passive mana regeneration

[Alrav23]

It might be too late. But...
I think the right direction would be to give nerfs along with the new buffs. For example, making melee hunter viable by limiting ranged capability. (making aspect of the wolf unable to use ranged attacks). This is an excellent way to bring about new changes to vanilla. Vanilla is very sensitive. Even with small changes people can find ways to min/max with items to make things viable. Also this gives players a chance to opt into these new changes or not. For example making paladin a viable tank with taunt, however applying restrictions to healing. That way people can mess around with the new builds at a cost. And if they don't like it they don't have to use it. But forcing players into a new spec can create chaos and make some classes very overpowered almost to a necessity.
Making every meme spec viable just isn't possible without major nerfs. Why? Because of pvp. I can already see how some of these changes will make pvp a nightmare. The only solution to that would be crossfaction. That way if people complain about one class being OP everyone can just roll that class. Lol

Whats best for the game will almost always be hated. Because people want want without having to sacrifice anything. The spirit of changes in vanilla patches were always in the nerfs. Like it or not. And its all the buffing classes that distinguishes expansions.

Quality of life changes should be given regardless; Druid rez, shaman totem recall. Etc. Those are just bad design and should have been implemented.

[Redmagejoe]

While classes will not be set in stone for all of eternity with no hope of there ever being another class change patch, there have been suggestions that after this patch drops there will not be tweaks to classes beyond bug fixing for a long time. The patch will need at least a couple months of trial for people to feel things out, for data and feedback to be collected, and for decisions to be made. So just bear in mind that any ideas being proposed in this thread likely will not be incorporated into the patch and may very well not even have an impact on classes for up to a year from the patch dropping.

[Kwayver]

I have some questions about Sanctified Command:

1. Are there any range limits on the group mana restoring effect?
2. If I am using Libram of Hope (lowering cost of seals by 25 mana) will the Manas restoration be calculated before applying the effect of the Libram or after?

[Dharmok]

Moonkin idea. Owlkin frenzy causes a couple % mana regen during duration. Or spell critical refund a % of mana.