Class changes are coming in Patch 1.16.0

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Rafale
Posts: 23

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Rafale » Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:36 pm

Lahire wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:32 am
When I said "effects on the overall class and combat designs", I was not talking about "strong" or "weak", I was talking about the diversity, feel and flavour of the design. Overall player experience is in my eye far more important than raiding optimization. The practice of theorycrafting raid optimality is 1% of the overall game or player experience.

Strikes were not planned to be for paladin because they would make its gameplay warrior-like. The point was to distinguish War and Pala gameplay, not homogenize them. The more strikes are added, the more this distinction disappears. If the pala feels like the war to play, it's a decision contradictory with the integrity of the overall experience. I don't say this inclusion will suffise to make them feel identical, I say it's a step in this direction.
Totally agree
Imo, raid optimization should not be the compass for designing vanilla. Because there are a lot of other activities and if you make every class equally optimal for raiding, you impact their design for these other activities and lose their RP specificities on the way.
It's possible to make adjustments. Some adjustments have an impact on raiding without impacting too much PVP, Levelling, etc.

Threat reduction/increase talents are good example of raiding adjustments.

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Rafale
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Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Rafale » Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:41 pm

Severla wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:23 am
Rafale wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:34 pm
Big NO. Bringing a new ability. . .
Don't bring retail things. . .
The spell existed during Vanilla planning, is still in the code, and worked the exact same way it does listed in this thread.
Good point ! No scaling and so poor damage is still a big problem I think...

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Merikkinon
Posts: 265

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Merikkinon » Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:13 pm

Lahire wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:23 am
It's clearly 1.16 material.
Agree. It's clearly not a patch, but a major overhaul.

1.16 it is indeed. Calling it 1.15.2 is actually a way to buffer the impact of how it is being received... by many.

Integrity.

Mac
Posts: 88

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Mac » Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:23 pm

Lahire wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:32 am
According to K. Jordan it was an alpha/beta placeholder to give pally testers "buttons to press" and was never intended to be in the finished product, so its existence in files isn't an argument all by itself to add it back. Need to ponder about its effects on the overall class and combat designs.
One of the biggest complaints the paladin class received during vanilla was that it was boring to play, especially while leveling, and that they'd just afk during fights since it was all auto attack anyway due to a lack of interactivity or "buttons to press."

Evillord
Posts: 9

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Evillord » Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:11 pm

Mac wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:23 pm


One of the biggest complaints the paladin class received during vanilla was that it was boring to play, especially while leveling, and that they'd just afk during fights since it was all auto attack anyway due to a lack of interactivity or "buttons to press."
Even when blizzard released classic servers. Some of the advice given while leveling a paladin, was to have netflix or something on in the background. Which the general advice would be something like this, put x blessing on, cast your seal, judgement, put up another seal and than go watch netflix, unless it was some zone with big elites that love to run around. Since going with the idea the paladin was decently gear. Most of it will be auto attacking, to avoid going out of mana. For not much risk of anything bad happen, unless you were trying to take on a mob high above your level range or your gear was massively out dated.

With the most interact would be a paladin going down the aoe grinding route. Having to gather up enough mobs, keep a eye on your health and mana, knowing when to use one of your oh no buttons, to do stuff like bubble bandage. making sure you keep an eye on the mobs, have to watch out addition mobs joining in, which might lead to your doom and end up with pulling to many. Might need to focus down on a low health mob, to lower the damage you are tanking to ensure you remain standing once all mobs are dead. Which I don't think many when down this path, it took alot more things to get going and a certain talent build. Along with being rather costly in terms of gold, if you brought all the possible items like spell power potions, dragon breath chili and other things that could make it go faster or be even more effective. That and needed to know good spots for aoe grinding. Making the auto attack leveling, just way more simple and cheaper in terms of gold cost.

Of course the auto attack and go afk way of leveling up a paladin, has made some go paladins were unplayable before holy strike or still barely playable with holy strike. Hyperbolt of course, since they still work and were able to do the things they needed to do, just not the most interaction class when it comes to solo play for one on one. Since consecration if the paladin has it, is most likely not going to use a high mana cost spell against a single target mob. Exorcism is limited to who you can use it on, same for turn undead. That and oh no buttons, would only be used if you are in any threat of danger. Which is unlikely to happen in a one vs one, against normal mobs. Leading to paladins having a very limited kit. Making it easy to see why the advice of go afk and watch netflix is given. Than you throw in something like holy strike and it's easy to see why so many value it highly or even overhype it, it gives another choice, another reason to focus on the game and not just go afk.

Mac
Posts: 88

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Mac » Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:36 pm

Evillord wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:11 pm
Even when blizzard released classic servers. Some of the advice given while leveling a paladin, was to have netflix or something on in the background.
That reminds me of this old post.

Evillord
Posts: 9

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Evillord » Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:46 pm

Mac wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:36 pm


That reminds me of this old post.
Thank you for linking that. that made my day.

Aeliren
Posts: 11

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Aeliren » Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:19 pm

Mac wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:36 pm
Evillord wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:11 pm
Even when blizzard released classic servers. Some of the advice given while leveling a paladin, was to have netflix or something on in the background.
That reminds me of this old post.
I knew what this was going to be before I even clicked on it.

A classic meme. turtle_tongue

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Reploidrocsa
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Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Reploidrocsa » Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:37 am

Btw, will druids be able to learn to use polearms?

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Lahire
Posts: 141

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Lahire » Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:36 pm

Let's be honest, most player feedback is so hyperbolic its useless for a designer. For most players, each thing is either "burning trash" or "perfect", and the difference between those 2 categories can be as tenuous as a 1% efficiency.
Main: Whitemare

Brandedblade
Posts: 4

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Brandedblade » Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:15 pm

So I'm going to mainly give feedback towards Paladin and Priest as those are my babies as far as classes are concerned.

With Paladin? The addition of Holy Strike alone did alot to improve the feel of vanilla paladin, so I'm immediately feeling optimistic about Adding Crusader Strike on top of it. I am admittedly worried that any and all of this will be overtuned but the raw numbers can always be adjusted as long as the gameplay feels good.

I'm actually pleasantly surprised by the Improved Seal of Justice suggestion. My fantasy of a "Seal that has a taunt effect when judged" was always aimed towards a reimplemented Seal of Fury, this is actually super clever as Seal of Justice is such an underrated tool in the paladin toolkit, especially in places like scarlet monestary, and this indirectly encourages more use of it while giving it further utility on mobs that don't flee at low health.

My only real negative is the removal of lasting judgments, as tagging mobs with Light or Wis was always a favorite part for me when it comes to healing on paladin. But at the same time this would also make me more motivated to do the occasional smacking to maintain them.

With Priest, I'm definitely liking the adjustments to shadow, but I am a little curious, what's the current plan concerning smite builds? I know you gave High Elves a few racials that make it more viable of an option, but has there been any considerations for adjusting some of the holy and disc talents to help with that? From an initial thought the only things that immediately spring to my mind would be to additionally add a crit damage bonus to Searing Light and possibly add mana reduction to Smite and Holy Fire onto Mental Agility. Otherwise I'm definitely liking what I'm seeing for priest. I will definitely want to poke and prod around with the champion spells.

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Mantigora
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Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Mantigora » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:50 pm

Reploidrocsa wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:37 am
Btw, will druids be able to learn to use polearms?
Yea, that would be very nice!
There are so many good Polearms that would fit a Druid, perhaps even better than any other class.

I would like to see some small changes first and then later see what more could be done.
If you want to keep people happy, give them something new once in a while, don't choke them with everything in one go.
That's what I would do...

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Rafale
Posts: 23

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Rafale » Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:04 pm

For the druid changes, I was thinking about 2 more things :

- 35% mana cost on Regrowth. This is a change Druids got in TBC. If you compare the mana cost on flash heal, holy light, and Lesser healing Wave, you will immediately understand the problem.
- Entangling Roots usable indoor. That is a more utility boost. This will make druid very welcome in every dungeon.

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Afaslizo
Posts: 19

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Afaslizo » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:13 pm

Lahire wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:36 pm
Let's be honest, most player feedback is so hyperbolic its useless for a designer. For most players, each thing is either "burning trash" or "perfect", and the difference between those 2 categories can be as tenuous as a 1% efficiency.
Player feedback is not useless if you look at it aside from debating the changes in detail. The purpose of the thread is quite obvious in testing if the proposed changes might affect the player population in a largely negative way as it certainly comes up even in game while here are just a drop of the players assembled. So it helps to gauge the reaction to the planned additions as well as facilliating communication between the team and the playerbase. Aside from up to five commentaries which oppose it entirely the reception seems to be largely positive if a bit wary but hopeful. I am sure the staff takes examples from this as well as discord and a bit in game from passively reading the chats (like Jamey does in HC where I mostly play).

That helps to assemble player reactions in what is well received and where it might be lacking and even if the end result will never please everyone it might be enough of a compromise. Will it lead to some players leaving? Maybe. But it can also lead to player-increase.

Aside from that it seems likely that while the list is extensive it is not anywhere near to be implemented as mutiple times stated that numbers are still under consideration, rogue change appears to be largely without ideas and some new mechanics are quite largely opposed like the new holy priest spells. So there might be further changes coming or even a rescaling on what will be implemented.

Thus all feedback has worth.

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Jamey
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Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Jamey » Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:37 pm

Greetings lovely turtles!

We have put up a Talent Calculator for the tentative upcoming talent changes.

You can play around with the talents yourself here:
https://talents.turtle-wow.org/

DISCLAIMER: These changes shown on the calculator are tentative and may be subject to change without warning.

Please notify us if you notice any problems with the calculator.

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Rafale
Posts: 23

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Rafale » Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:40 pm

Suggestion for warlocks who could want to be fire PVE specced and don't have many changes :
- Make the talent "Improved Searing Pain" only 3 points : 3/7/10%
- Add a talent following this one : "Gentle Flames : Reduces the threat generated of your Searing Pain spell by 25/50% (2 points)"

People could take it or not take it if they want searing pain to stay a tanking spell.
This new talent could make FireLocks a good alternative, with fire mages debuffs and without costing any debuff themselves.

Edit: I just saw the base damage, gonna be hard to make it viable without another buff to the damage. Maybe a new R6 Searing Pain would help, and make the improved Searing Pain 5/10/15% ?
Last edited by Rafale on Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

Xyosickman
Posts: 1

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Xyosickman » Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:10 am

Are there any plans to add increased damage to the [Improved Entangling Roots] talent? Something like 10%/20%/30% increased damage would make this talent way more attractive, especially since balance is getting some more interesting gameplay. Maybe even something like 30%/60%/100% damage boost insidious_turtle

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Merikkinon
Posts: 265

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Merikkinon » Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:01 pm

Jamey wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:37 pm
We have put up a Talent Calculator for the tentative upcoming talent changes.

You can play around with the talents yourself here:
https://talents.turtle-wow.org/
Just really awesome. Thanks so much, dev team.

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Merikkinon
Posts: 265

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Merikkinon » Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:22 pm

I want to name something, and I think it needs to be considered from a server culture level. It's more an observation, but it is an observation of a significant trend:

Since the devs mentioned the potential (likely, in some form/format) upcoming changes to class abilities and talents, we have been weighing in (mainly in this thread), and in discord and so on. Rightly so, with the announcement, as we have actual data to debate.

However... prior to this and for some time, there has been a growing, significant shift in discussion about classes and reworking them. It has possibly always been somewhat of a topic during the lifetime of TWoW. And pretty much most Vanilla pservers. However, I do note since I joined in Feb/March of this year, the discussion has RAMPED up. It's become a dominant topic in the community, and was becoming so even before the dev announcement on class changes.

My concern, and I think people might want to give pause to this, is that this is part of the way the WoW community and Blizzard unconsciously conspired to punt Vanilla down a road of constant class-balancing frackas and the twisting of the game far away from Vanilla. Both the WoW devs and community were complicit in mangling that game.

It was undeniable that as we (TWoW) got an influx of new players (many of whom came from either Classic or Classic TBC, and were still in the somewhat Retail mode), that discussion of the TWoW project model would occur, and along with that all sorts of talk about 'what to do about 'Class X''.

I am simply making commentary that this IS what is occurring, and has been steadily increasing for awhile, and the rate and pitch at which it is occurring. In the end, it's up to everyone to figure out what we'd want TWoW to be about, because it's not just the TWoW devs who determine that, but the community also - what they perseverate on and bang drums about becomes community culture, community vibe.

As I said, understandable that we are talking about it so hot and heavy now after the dev announcement. However, is did not just start with that announcement, but had been growing strong for some time prior.

IMO, focusing on class change and making it a bitching point or constant topic to be debated absoultely is RETAIL, in the end.

Let's figure out what we're gonna do about all this, and get on with the game and culture. Hell, I don't want to see this spiral into the void that WoW went originally. And let me stress, on the way out, this isn't just in the hands of the devs to control. This is purely a TWoW total community issue.

/END_SOAPBOX

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Aomiaz
Posts: 20

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Aomiaz » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:52 am

For the Paladin talent tree.
I would swap the position of Blessing of sanctuary with Holy shield.
I would swap the position of Blessing of kings with Seal of command.
And I would move Improved seal of justice to row 7 as the 31 point talent.

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