Class changes are coming in Patch 1.16.0

Warmane
Posts: 11

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Warmane » Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:39 am

Why so far you've only implemented things that were orginally in game and later removed, and now all of a sudden you want to create new things? i mean even with the additioal architecture you've put in game, its all models that were created by blizz beforehand.
I think i speak for many saying that we want to play 2005's Blizzard Wow, not a game designed by turtle team. So far you did great bringing back interesting removed things, and it would be great if you guys kept doing just that when it comes to class balance. (new quests and new gear i don't mind as they dont interfeer with the experience)
Please don't alter the beautiful equilibrium that vanilla classes have. To your eyes they may be imperfect but to many they are perfect as they are.

i may be wrong but if these class changes are implemented and transmog goes live this will become a meme server

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Velite
Posts: 93

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Velite » Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:47 am

Warmane wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:39 am
Why so far you've only implemented things that were orginally in game and later removed, and now all of a sudden you want to create new things? i mean even with the additioal architecture you've put in game, its all models that were created by blizz beforehand.
I think i speak for many saying that we want to play 2005's Blizzard Wow, not a game designed by turtle team. So far you did great bringing back interesting removed things, and it would be great if you guys kept doing just that when it comes to class balance. (new quests and new gear i don't mind as they dont interfeer with the experience)
Please don't alter the beautiful equilibrium that vanilla classes have. To your eyes they may be imperfect but to many they are perfect as they are.

i may be wrong but if these class changes are implemented and transmog goes live this will become a meme server
we already had transmog before, so I guess it already is a meme server? /s

wait until you see the new instances! oh no, too much change!

Suwuxiv
Posts: 24

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Suwuxiv » Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:56 am

Warmane wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:39 am
Please don't alter the beautiful equilibrium that vanilla classes have. To your eyes they may be imperfect but to many they are perfect as they are.
Many times in your post you go on a limb and try to speak in 3rd person on behalf of others. wary_turtle_head

Frankly speaking, there is no "beautiful equilibrium" between classes. Some classes are just better than others and the "meta" of this solved, 17y old game dictates many of them be left out. All these changes primarily aim to do is fix that.

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Kazgrim
Posts: 341

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Kazgrim » Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:52 am

Welcome to Turtle WoW, a custom vanilla server.
Chieftain of the Dreadskull Clan
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=552

Check out my patches in the modding section!
viewforum.php?f=29

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Taelan
Posts: 1

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Taelan » Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:05 am

For Paladins Judgment of Justice with a taunt doesn't seem to make sense since they build their aggro with holy damage through Righteous Fury. It would almost need a spell overhaul of converting damage to (%)holy while active, like;

Seal of Justice
Fills the Paladin with the spirit of justice for 30 sec, converting paladins physical damage into holy damage (possibly scaled down) and giving each melee attack a chance to stun for 2 sec. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time. Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy preventing them from fleeing for 10 sec. Your melee strikes will refresh the spell's duration. Only one Judgement per Paladin can be active at any one time.

Then adding the taunt talents to it, as you have listed.

This could solve the problem of switching from Seal of the Righteous, to Seal of Justice, then Judging Justice, 2+ seconds of global cooldowns (which could kill a team member) and mana of constantly switching seals to hold base aggro. Scaling the holy damage converter down could also keep is on a more defensive level and not take the complete place of Seal of Righteousness or Seal of Command for damage. Right now you mostly use Seal of Righteousness to tank with, and only Judge to spike threat or really use as a taunt, but as your DPS members gear up it gets harder. This change could effectively make Seal of Justice a Threat and Control seal, not a damaging one.

If that's too much in one spell, then maybe a new Seal created that would do something similar to control threat better in PVE.

The last thing I would want to do is to spam Greater Blessing of Kings to hold aggro against geared DPS.

At the end of the day though, you've given the Paladin a taunt.

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Dragunovi
Posts: 165

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Dragunovi » Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:07 am

Taelan wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:05 am
For Paladins Judgment of Justice with a taunt doesn't seem to make sense since they build their aggro with holy damage through Righteous Fury. It would almost need a spell overhaul of converting damage to (%)holy while active, like;
This is intentional, its a bit hard to explain, but the simple way is that the intention was to give them a tool to handle tank swaps, not a free "face me" card basically, like how Druids are the jack of all trades, master of none, hybrids shouldn't be the best at everything and overshadow dedicated specialization classes, but have the tools to make a dedicated player be able to perform the functions of other tanks like Warriors. You can't subsitute the lack of taunt with anything from profession or other gimicky items, its a must for some encounters to be a fully functioning offtank with enough dedication. Its not perfect, but good enough to serve its purpose.
Taelan wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:05 am
This could solve the problem of switching from Seal of the Righteous, to Seal of Justice, then Judging Justice, 2+ seconds of global cooldowns (which could kill a team member) and mana of constantly switching seals to hold base aggro.
The taunt was designed this way, as its a very last resort and not something you should be using often, tankadin aggro outshines even warriors in dungeons, the GCD problem is pretty minimal as Judgement isn't affected by it so you can activate your seal and immediately judge.
Taelan wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:05 am

The last thing I would want to do is to spam Greater Blessing of Kings to hold aggro against geared DPS.
Personally I've only see this happening when a lot of mobs have to be nuked fast like Nefarian's Skeleton Zerg or Princess Yauj's Minions, otherwise most paladins prefer swinging their weapons, its a boring way to tank for almost everyone.
Still making items...
Dragunovi - Level 60 Human Tankadin
Dragunir - Level 60 Dwarf Shadow Priest
Dragun - Level 17 Troll Hunter
Dragunis - Level 60 Human Warlock
Zephyris - Level 60 Elemental Shaman

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Dragunovi
Posts: 165

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Dragunovi » Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:27 am

Aeliren wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:16 pm
The additional priest Holy Champion abilities seem a bit overly complicated. That is a whopping six additional separate abilities tied to one talent/buff/concept.

I would honestly consider condensing them into one ability like this:

Holy Champion | 250 Mana Cost | 10 Second Cast | 2 Hour Cooldown
Proclaim the friendly target as your champion for 2 hrs. Increases armor by 230, all resistances by 10, all healing done by the priest by 10%, all healing and spell damage done by up to 25 and attack power by 30, and when the priest takes damage up to 20 will be taken by the Champion instead.
Note: Persists through death and continues its duration and cooldown countdowns while offline.
Note: Armor buff does not stack with Scroll of Protection IV
Note: Does not stack effects with Greater Arcane Elixir or Juju Power/Elixir of Giants

I'd scrap "Summon Champion" and "Revive Champion". Leave the summoning to the warlocks, and priests already have a resurrection ability, so a second one seems kinda redundant.
Funnily enough this change was also experimented on by Blizzard around the end of WotlK.
I personally think Summon Champion could be used for repositioning in fights like Thaddius or pulling Chrommagus, its not a direct subsitute for Warlock summoning as you need to proclaim champion when your target is next to you, making long distance summoning without any prior interaction impossible. I do have agree that the revive feels a bit redundant.
This spell is under a lot of discussion internally and likely to change before the final changelog.
Still making items...
Dragunovi - Level 60 Human Tankadin
Dragunir - Level 60 Dwarf Shadow Priest
Dragun - Level 17 Troll Hunter
Dragunis - Level 60 Human Warlock
Zephyris - Level 60 Elemental Shaman

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Dragunovi
Posts: 165

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Dragunovi » Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:31 am

Darreno wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:30 pm
wait... um the new rogue spell "Flourish (20% Parry)" is almost the exact amount of avoidance needed to reach a 100% avoidance Rogue tank.

This would now mean a Rogue Tank can now focus more on threat from Buffs/Debuffs/gear, etc...

This is HUGE for rogue tanking!
İntentional, no clue who can pull off rogue tanking, but they should have the required mitigation tool now.
Still making items...
Dragunovi - Level 60 Human Tankadin
Dragunir - Level 60 Dwarf Shadow Priest
Dragun - Level 17 Troll Hunter
Dragunis - Level 60 Human Warlock
Zephyris - Level 60 Elemental Shaman

Darreno
Posts: 31

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Darreno » Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:16 am

Dragunovi wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:31 am
Darreno wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:30 pm
wait... um the new rogue spell "Flourish (20% Parry)" is almost the exact amount of avoidance needed to reach a 100% avoidance Rogue tank.

This would now mean a Rogue Tank can now focus more on threat from Buffs/Debuffs/gear, etc...

This is HUGE for rogue tanking!
İntentional, no clue who can pull off rogue tanking, but they should have the required mitigation tool now.
anyone who is willing to put in the effort and learn. If you have questions, let me know.

I'm super excited by this change, since it means players are not as penalized as much by going horde rogue tank.
This also opens up the gearing to allow for more +stamina and such

Borzy
Posts: 6

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Borzy » Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:52 am

There are many things to say about how I feel, but most has been said already.

These changes are too drastic: you no longer have a RP/PVE “Vanilla” WoW server. Anyone looking for a drastic overhaul to skills systems are probably already playing Ascension WoW.

This server does not have a population base large enough to implement changes like these. Especially drastic ones like paladin. There isn’t going to be the base to guide a paladin guide or something like that, and it will just end up being a confusing mess.

The base issue with paladin was very simple: itemization for a class that needs mana to deal physical damage with a base stat of strength, augmented by judgements that needed intel. TBC fixed this fairly easily in principle by adding a talent that converted a % of your strength to intel.

The new Crusader Strike needing a sizeable mama pool to build and refresh a stack of 5 debuffs, and moving SoC down so you can no longer dual reckoning with SoC, fixes nothing about paladin needing mana to deal primary damage that needs strength, and instead changes your leveling builds into something unrecognisable.

Paladin taunt is also unnecessary. Homogenization is one argument. Even TBC pally tank didn’t have a taunt. Paladin tank was always supposed to be different, in that it’s AOE superior, and more based off damage. If you wanted a paladin tank, the TBC Avenging Wrath that boost holy damage, and Avengers Shield that allows you to open with big burst of holy damage should be how you give paladins a burst of dmg upfront to take aggro. A slow stacking holy damage that eats up half your mana solves none of those problems.

Not to mention that all classes have at most 2 viable specs. Paladin has heal, and just need a slight dmg fix to make ret good for dps. The limited utility of their tank ability should have been left alone.

As someone who has always mained a paladin, I do say that these changes sway too far from vanilla. If I wanted to play Ascension, I already wouldn’t be here.

Spook
Posts: 2

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Spook » Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:10 am

Moon wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:57 pm
Not a lot to say for Rogues. If anything, Combat being the only viable talent spec in PvE
Yes not a lot, considering the 3 levels below mobs see you from a mile with 5 points in improved stealth.
But don't fix what is reliably not working anyway, buff already overpowered classes.
Warlock and Priest already insanely safe and boring class to play why overbuff them? When rogue is fragile and can't even use stealth reliably at all.

Spook
Posts: 2

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Spook » Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:13 am

Borzy wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:52 am
If I wanted to play Ascension, I already wouldn’t be here.
Same thoughts here. "Turtle" was good due to being close to Vanila.

Rwhook
Posts: 1

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Rwhook » Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:17 pm

So much exaggeration here.

1. These changes are NOWHERE near what Ascension is. I mean come on, saying something this absurd invalidates all of your other arguments to me.

2. Trivializing raid content? What you really struggle with almost 20 year old content that has been plotted out to the second?

3. The original WoW devs were actually the opposite of professional. There's plenty of interviews out there with senior members saying they had no idea what they were doing and were rushed to market. The classes in the game were not finished nor planned. Even the patches we got in vanilla were basically hotfixes.

4. You can go make a no changes server if you'd like.

Andima
Posts: 2

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Andima » Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:06 pm

"Turtle" IS good due to being an improved vanilla

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Velite
Posts: 93

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Velite » Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:08 pm

Borzy wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:52 am

Paladin taunt is also unnecessary. Homogenization is one argument. Even TBC pally tank didn’t have a taunt. Paladin tank was always supposed to be different, in that it’s AOE superior, and more based off damage. If you wanted a paladin tank, the TBC Avenging Wrath that boost holy damage, and Avengers Shield that allows you to open with big burst of holy damage should be how you give paladins a burst of dmg upfront to take aggro. A slow stacking holy damage that eats up half your mana solves none of those problems.
Except they did give paladins a taunt in TBC. Righteous defense. Because it was the right thing to do.

https://tbc.wowhead.com/spell=31789/righteous-defense

Their taunt spell works radically different than druids and warriors, so if anything it is anti-homogenization, and what we currently have now is very homogenized.

Pawpaw
Posts: 9

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Pawpaw » Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:11 pm

First of all - praise and honour to the turtle team for picking up the slack and fix some of the inherent flaws in vanilla wow class design. Many of the skill/talent decisions I have seen so far are absolutely logic and obvious fixes to some of the problems with the old game.

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Beautiful, no notes turtle_in_love_head

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I dont think these changes will do much for hunters endgame - unless Trueshot is in addition to autoshoot?
Regardless, Aspect of the Wolf? *chef finger-kiss*

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Some much needed love for Arcane. Nice.
- Brilliance Aura? -very- nice.

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I play a lot of Paladin myself here, I do have some notes to the changes.
- Consecration is no longer a talent? YES! Great decision. This opens up for more talent diversity.
- Scaling for Retribution Aura? Just YES.
- Redoubt change? OMG YES. It has always been retarded a protection ability only procs from crits.
- Holy shock dmg increase +12% scaling from Holy Light Talent? A bit OP. Will make it a bit more viable for raid healadins, but its gonna boost battleground shockadins a ton (and they are already really strong). Good thing I play alliance. turtle_tongue_head
- Precision works for BOTH spell and melee hit chance? Great for tankadins, but a tad op for 3 low tier talent points. I would consider moving them deeper into the prot tree to not become mandetory for Ret and Shockadins
- Improved Shield Specialization now recovers 1% mana per block? OMG YES. Would be nice for mana recovery options for rets too.
- Ardent Defender is gonna make AoE-grinding pimped af. Especially with Skullflame, improved ret aura, and improved consecration. I just cant shake the feeling it will feel a tad too OP for vanilla.
- Is crusader strike spammable, is it damage added to a swing, or does it have a cooldown?

Is fixing of the scaling on Holy Strike among the changes? Or was that worked out already? Crits with rank 1 are still devastating for 20 mana, maybe it could be considered making the mana cost like 8-12% of base mana to encourage upgrading the ability to higher ranks?

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A lot of these changes are puzzling to me... some of them even seem to contradict what you set out to achieve. Also, why not mainstream fear ward, and give dwarf priests a new racial?
Moon wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:57 pm
Shadow priests are notorious for being good, but also not. Their mana economy is horrendous and comes with several downsides other dps+caster hybrids don’t have to work around. The challenge for Shadow is to boost its utility and mana economy without increasing their power, as their damage per second is actually very good already.

....

New Abilities

New Passive: Improved Shadowform. Reduces the Mana cost of your Shadow spells by 15% while in Shadowform.

Improved Vampiric Touch has been replaced by Vampiric Embrace: Vampiric Embrace also restores 2/5% of shadow spell damage you deal to the target as mana for your party.
Goal achieved. Right?
Moon wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:57 pm
New Ability: Pain Spike | Learned at Level 60 | 15 Second Cooldown
Causes 225 Shadow damage instantly, but the damage caused will begin healing itself over 5 seconds after landing.

New Ability: Shadow Nova | Learned at Level 60 | 635 Mana Cost | 30 Second Cooldown
Causes an explosion of cursed shadow around the caster, causing 181 to 209 Shadow damage to all enemy targets within 8 yards. This effect causes increased threat.
I dont see how these abilities will do much for the PvE scene outside of grinding normal mobs. It is a HUGE boost to the already top-tier shadow priest in battlegrounds though, by giving them 2 additional finishers.

The champion mechanic seems absolutely fine for group PvE of any kind. To not completely wreck balance in battlegrounds, I suggest summon champion and 2seconds revive champion will be disabled here though, as it is really easy to get out of combat for 2 seconds in pvp.

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I completely agree that it is unfortunate that only combat is viable until late AQ/Naxx. I dont think these changes will change that. But maybe if the debuff cap is lifted in a patch some time in the future, this can change.

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I love the addition of Bloodlust and Lightning Shield, and how they relate to their WC3 shaman abilities .
- Can we add dualwield to complete the fist-weapon shaman wc3 fantasy turtle_in_love_head ?
- The addition of racials is nice, the tauren racial seems a bit lackluster for a 10min CD outside of very specific raid encounters.
- Do the orc spirit wolves damage scale with gear?
- Is there a limit on how many people shamans can cast Bloodlust or Lightning Shield or is there a cooldown?

To be honest I like that the shaman class deepen the support aspect. But, on top of all the boosts to paladin, I feel a bad for the shaman players. I mean, these changes boost holy paladin damage more than all shaman specs combined.


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Removing the debuff limit would probably be the best way to make warlocks not boring in pve. I -love- the changes to the infernal spell, Intensity, and Pyroclasm turtle_in_love_head

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I also play warrior a lot. All good changes to be honest. I am only a bit puzzled about the running-slam ability.
- Thunderclap in Defensive Stance. YES. Thank you. While I like the challenge behind stance dancing, my keyboard will be forever grateful.
- Intervene? Nice.
- Die by the sword? Nice. It should encourage players to use challenge more mobs with this ability.
- Decisive Strike? It seems like an overpowered Slam. Does it reset swing timer? This is very important, since it could absolutely decimate people in battlegrounds.
- The talent changes are logic and welcome.
- If you want to solve the problem of warriors scaling like madmen, just reduce the %speed on flurry. Easy. It might also encourage experimentation with other talent builds.

All-in-all: Much love for what you are doing here.

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Velite
Posts: 93

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Velite » Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:11 pm

Borzy wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:52 am


This server does not have a population base large enough to implement changes like these. Especially drastic ones like paladin. There isn’t going to be the base to guide a paladin guide or something like that, and it will just end up being a confusing mess.

There's actually a fair few of us playing the meme specs in raids here. As someone who mains protection paladin, I do pretty much everything you need a raid tank to do but it's a bit clunky, and it would be nice if it wasn't as clunky. The design is not preventing me from doing my job anyway in raids, apart from fights that require taunt, so I do not see the justification in leaving protection paladin the way it is but changing ret.

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Lahire
Posts: 141

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Lahire » Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:28 pm

The fact pala tank is "a bit more clunky" than war tank is a design choice coming from the fact paladin can perform adequatly the 3 roles, which is an oddity (only druid does the same).
If you make pala tank as easy as war tank, why play a war tank then ? It would just become less versatile, so worse than pala tank.
Last edited by Lahire on Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Sonpansatan
Posts: 9

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Sonpansatan » Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:28 pm

With so many people talking about Paladin changes, I think that Brilliance Aura is being overlooked. Historically some specs have struggled with mana issues, and this might be a needed boost to them. Perhaps they'll be carrying around two sets, one with Spirit to take advantage of Brilliance Aura.

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Velite
Posts: 93

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Velite » Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:37 pm

Lahire wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:28 pm
The fact pala tank is "a bit more clunky" than war tank is a design choice coming from the fact paladin can perform adequatly the 3 roles, which is an oddity (only druid does the same).
If you make pala tank as easy as war tank, why play a war tank then ? It would just become less versatile, so worse than pala tank.
It is not as easy as warrior tank, and will not be with these changes. A warrior tank is still a better MT. Paladin Tank still lacks gear and a good "oh shit button" like shield wall. Unless you mean "viable" in which case, why should it not be viable? Druid tank is very viable. As a paladin tank, you currently and will still need to overgear and over consume for that tier of raid content.

Simply having a taunt does not make a class equal to warrior. And an inferior one at that, one that 1) costs mana 2) costs talent points 3) requires GCD, all 3 of which warrior doesn't have to deal with.

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