Final Changelog for Class Changes coming in 1.16.1

[Faustorgo]

+2

[Redmagejoe]

It's clear that people are anxious to hear some news on this, so it would be appreciated if Staff could make any sort of comment as to the current progress of class changes.

[Smokingrinch]

I have also stopped playing because I was waiting for class changes.

+3

[Walters]

I feel cheated that I got into Turtle WoW believing these changes to be already here based on your website.

Have just heard about these class changes and was going to come back here to check em... And there is this post...
So, these class changes (announced in november) still aren't in the game? They have even updated the talent calculator, but not the game itself?
PS Still better than V+ with their pvp nonsence.

[Redmagejoe]

I, too, was fooled by the talent calculator on the site. Revert the calculator until the patch is in, or put a big, obvious disclaimer at the top of the calculator page.

[Jesterjacks]

I do wish there would at least be a few class changes, rather than the baiting and false promise of "it's gonna come". I'd have preferred to see 1 added thing rather than 200 added things, but at least see there is a change happening. And if balancing is an issue, there's always balance fixing.

That being said, this is a bit of a choosing beggars. Devil's advocate would say you pay nothing for this. But TBH, I would gladly donate and help the server for all this effort. Alas, atm, I just feel bitter. I stopped playing as I don't know what I want to level FOR the changes. I could be playing rogue and realize that the changes make priest very interesting. As far as I've seen, the first thread isn't accurate with the talent changes on the website either.

But yes, what is interesting about Vwow is the additions. While I'd say is a bit too much change, it's still a nice experience. I am certain all the custom content existing already in Twow is gonna be dope along the class changes. But I personally don't like the clickbaiting. I had friends who didn't warn me of this, but revealed they left because of it once I brought it up. Which sucks.

[Razzz]

I've been admittedly out of the loop in terms of checking discord and the like as of late, but the last time I heard anything about the talent changes was right when a very specific world event (you know what I'm talking about hint hint hint) began.

Didn't they say that some or all of the staff members who had been working on the changes and were the ones who would have implemented them have been affected by said world event?

If that's still the case then the talents have to wait until things calm down, right?

[Bellybutton]

A lot of the staff are dealing with the war over in Eastern Europe, and another lot of the staff are dealing with Covid.
It's slowed everything down.

[Chulain]

It's not a reason to keep us in the dark like this. It's taking a long time, we're talking months here not days.

It's the team's job to keep us informed even if the reasons are the same cause right now it feels like the update was left abandoned.

Last news was more than a month ago and it was "right around the corner".

[Jesterjacks]

It's not a reason to keep us in the dark like this. It's taking a long time, we're talking months here not days.

It's the team's job to keep us informed even if the reasons are the same cause right now it feels like the update was left abandoned.

Last news was more than a month ago and it was "right around the corner".

Agreed. At least a monthly update would be cute, even if the update is just how much progress they've had (or not). An ETA would be the best, but I also understand this is an irl situation that's difficult. I also highly doubt there's just two people, one with covid and one in Ukraine, that does this.

I wouldn't probably be so mad if I didn't get "clickbaited" so hard. It felt uncomfortable, to say the least. It's a pity because there's lots of potential.

[Redmagejoe]

It is also worth pointing out that March was when shit hit the fan, and that's only been the last 6-7 weeks. There's been no indication of progress or ETA since the post was made in November.

[Bayanni]

It is also worth pointing out that March was when shit hit the fan, and that's only been the last 6-7 weeks. There's been no indication of progress or ETA since the post was made in November.

There were some indications, just not here. The discord updates channel had some notes and the OP was updated with alterations they've already made. Rogue, for example, got a bit more love second go around.

[Allwynd01]

I have also stopped playing because I was waiting for class changes.

+3

+4 I see no reason to keep playing since this update is taking already 5 months and still no release date set in stone. I love this server, but this is just a joke.

[Zxzlenin]

Putting taunt behind using the Judgement of Seal of Justice would mean that Paladin essentially would need to use 3-4 mana costing skills to taunt: Seal of Justice, Judgement(to taunt), Useful Seal, possible Judgement

While Warriors and Druids have a simple 0 resource cost taunt skills.

Unless stun somehow is changed or Seal of Justice has any other effects I would imagine most would switch to any other seal.

Edit: Forgot to mention that we would also need to waste/spend 3 points in Improve Seal of Justice to have 100% chance to taunt.

[Redmagejoe]

Putting taunt behind using the Judgement of Seal of Justice would mean that Paladin essentially would need to use 3-4 mana costing skills to taunt: Seal of Justice, Judgement(to taunt), Useful Seal, possible Judgement

While Warriors and Druids have a simple 0 resource cost taunt skills.

Unless stun somehow is changed or Seal of Justice has any other effects I would imagine most would switch to any other seal.

Having been doing Tankadin up to 44 without these changes thus far, while I agree we should have a Taunt and getting one is appealing, I don't think that it's back-breaking to have a resource cost. You shouldn't need to taunt 2 times or more in each fight, and if your party is working well together, you shouldn't have to taunt at all. I'm not saying git gud or taunt is unnecessary, but I think that given Tankadin already requires some level of resource management, the taunt costing extra mana is just more incentive to work to not need to use it in the first place; either on your own threat generation and juggling across multiple targets, or telling your DPS to FUCKING FOCUS THE SKULL.

Just my input.

[Hibernate]

Would it be possible to implement the class changes one class at a time? It seems the entire project is taking much longer than anticipated, so perhaps having one class get their new changes every week or two. This would not only give good faith to the community that the changes are in fact being created after all this time, but also it might tempt players to enjoy a new class while waiting for their main to get the updates.

[Redmagejoe]

I strongly encourage reconsidering the lackluster and not-at-all-build-making 30-point Protection Paladin talent, Ardent Crusader. If you want to keep its current behavior, that's fine, but Tankadins have an awful time with mana upkeep. I honestly don't believe even with Redoubt and Holy Shield up, 1% mana back per block is going to be enough to keep you from running dry. Right now, the problem as a Tankadin is choosing between good threat generation, which the class is VERY capable of, and mana upkeep. People act like you're a Warrior tank and go ham within 1 second of a pull, and in order to ensure high threat at the start of a fight, you must burn almost 50% of your mana from full instantly.

I feel that incorporating something like Wrath's Spiritual Attunement would be helpful, making it a Tankadin only talent. Receiving a % of their mana back when being healed would be a great boon. Please seriously consider adding this.

[Dharmok]

I definitely agree with tweaking the classes as they were very lopsided and unfinished in classic.
I also believe strongly what people missed about classic wow was not how unfinished and lopsided everything was, they missed the social aspect; needing other players, having to work together to accomplish things, and having a challenge.
Also people who have a problem with balancing the specs and classes are most likely the ones who would be like "You can't come to this raid because you're the wrong spec/class."

[Projecx]

I definitely agree with tweaking the classes as they were very lopsided and unfinished in classic.
I also believe strongly what people missed about classic wow was not how unfinished and lopsided everything was, they missed the social aspect; needing other players, having to work together to accomplish things, and having a challenge.
Also people who have a problem with balancing the specs and classes are most likely the ones who would be like "You can't come to this raid because you're the wrong spec/class."

Amen!

Pandering the game to the hardcore elitists is one of the things that ruined retail WoW.

[Redmagejoe]

I think what you two mean is "purists". And yes, 100% purists of vanilla WoW who refuse to accept class changes should be ignored outright, as they have this misguided belief that even Blizzard debunked that the classes were somehow perfect in balance and not in need of changes. No one with any common sense who has played all of the classes believes that for one moment.

Even by the standards of 2004 when the game was breaking the mold and experimenting, it's clear to anyone with a mind for class balance, player training, and expectations versus capability that some classes are simply not well designed from an objective and universal design philosophy. I say this to pre-empt any potential cries for "just trying to make the game more casual friendly and braindead". If you would like for me to go into explicit detail as to how certain changes are necessary to call a class well-designed and not at all made with the intent to make a class "braindead" to play, I will gladly.

[Allwynd01]

I think what you two mean is "purists". And yes, 100% purists of vanilla WoW who refuse to accept class changes should be ignored outright, as they have this misguided belief that even Blizzard debunked that the classes were somehow perfect in balance and not in need of changes. No one with any common sense who has played all of the classes believes that for one moment.

Even by the standards of 2004 when the game was breaking the mold and experimenting, it's clear to anyone with a mind for class balance, player training, and expectations versus capability that some classes are simply not well designed from an objective and universal design philosophy. I say this to pre-empt any potential cries for "just trying to make the game more casual friendly and braindead". If you would like for me to go into explicit detail as to how certain changes are necessary to call a class well-designed and not at all made with the intent to make a class "braindead" to play, I will gladly.

When I heard of WoW Classic in 2019, I imagined it to be like what Turtle WoW is now, but that never happened. I also could not understand the purists, who could have always played the "no changes" on private servers if they wanted so much. Now Vanilla WoW Classic is almost abandoned, those who play Classic, play TBC and are gearing towards WoTLK, it's kinda safe to say that Activision's WoW Classic plan was a dud, not that it's bad that it exists, but because many people realized that the old Vanilla just isn't that exciting. I would also play pure Vanilla, but it eventually gets old doing the same thing for like the 681st time and having nothing new to look forward to.

That's why I'm glad that Turtle WoW has all these changes and hopefully we will soon see the class changes release. It's already been 5 months late. They should just release it as it is. I've been away from the game for 5 months already waiting for these changes to happen, it's getting tiresome. xD

[Kantrul]

Paladin changes are VERY good for prot and holy. The only problem I see is that ret is basically the same. So let's talk about the ret paladin situation in PvE, specifically in raids.

Currently there is no real reason to bring a ret paladin to a raid when you already have 3-4 holy paladins providing all the buffs and blessings necessary.

There is an interview with a vanilla class designer where he talks about the paladin class fantasy and what he would have improved or added to the class in a raid environment.

LINK: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-FFiSj ... =Countdown) min 1:51:01

TLDW: Bring holy in melee range to deal damage and heal, more versatility for prot (already achieved with the changes listed) and more effectiveness for rets.

Maybe bringing holy in melee range and changing completely his playstyle is not the wisest decision because people already know what to expect from that spec. This lead us to the only problem paladins have after these changes, which is, as I already mentioned before, dealing damage AKA retribution paladin.

According to what was said in the interview, paladins were designed to be in melee range doing dps and providing buffs and heals for the raid.

With that in mind, there are 2 routes to change ret paladins to be desirable in raids:

1. Increase ret damage:

This method means that the paladin damage will be significantly higher but not as higher as a
pure melee dps class like rogues or warriors. How do we achieve this?

- Crusader Strike: the ability deals negligible damage, puts a debuff on the
target and doesn't even refresh judgements or proc seals. This is a waste of an ability and it
won't be used in a raid environment because other classes can put better debuffs on bosses.

The ability could be changed to, instead, give the paladin a holy bonus dmg buff OR an
attack speed bonus buff of X% that stacks up to X times. This would make the ability usable
in raids and make paladin dps much better while also giving him a more interesting rotation.
If the ability results in being too powerful for other specs, it could be realocated to be a
final talent for the retribution talent tree.

If there were no changes to Crusader Strike, the talent "Vengeance" could be buffed to be
stackable to a maximun of 3 times, increasing dmg and attack speed by X% per stack.

2. Increase ret utility:

This method aims at keeping the damage and rotation of the paladin the same but providing the group with more mana/healing .

- New talent "Avenging Wrath": The paladin infuses his weapon with holy power for
X seconds, putting a buff on nearby party members that heals them by X% of the damage
dealt by the paladin for the duration while also increasing their mana regeneration by X% (buff doesn't
stack).

The talent will make the ret paladin desirable for raid groups while also fulfilling the class fantasy of dealing damage and healing/buffing allies.

[Fidget16]

Owlkin Frenzy seems very strong.

In PVP this effectively will mean that boomkins are immune to pushback when fighting fury warrs and rogues, since both those classes will be hitting so frequently as to almost certainly constantly refresh the buff.

[Redmagejoe]

Owlkin Frenzy seems very strong.

In PVP this effectively will mean that boomkins are immune to pushback when fighting fury warrs and rogues, since both those classes will be hitting so frequently as to almost certainly constantly refresh the buff.

Unless it's a non-refreshing buff, which isn't mentioned in the description. There are some buffs that have an internal cooldown so as not to refresh during their duration, and it would make sense for this to be one of them.

[Patadepalo]

Hi all, turtles !
Any date to release 1.16.1 ??

Thanks all

[Jesterjacks]

Still no release date, still radio silence...

[Allwynd01]

Still no release date, still radio silence...

Damn I'm at my wits' end.

[Hibernate]

I fear the release of WotLK classic will pull a lot of people away from Turtle WoW if this class update doesn't come out. People like shiny changes and will go where the "new thing" is.

[Garish]

I fear the release of WotLK classic will pull a lot of people away from Turtle WoW if this class update doesn't come out. People like shiny changes and will go where the "new thing" is.

they will come back at the end of the expansion anyways, WotLK core is trash.

[Frankthepen]

I mean I would like at least some sort of official announcement about it. I know they're working on it but man does it feel bad to be stuck in this 'soonTM' limbo.

[Allwynd01]

I fear the release of WotLK classic will pull a lot of people away from Turtle WoW if this class update doesn't come out. People like shiny changes and will go where the "new thing" is.

Really?

When I was excited about Activision Vanilla in 2019, it was before Turtle WoW had any real gameplay changes and I was hoping that Activision Vanilla would do what Turtle WoW is doing right now - new zones and quest content, class changes, new races, etc. But Activision Vanilla was a disappointment - it was a lazy attempt to milk nostalgia and fight private servers - "IF YOU CAN'T SHUT THEM ALL DOWN - JOIN THEM.". They made no additional changes, only some small QoL adjustments that are too insignificant to even speak of.

Activision TBC was the same crap.

Activision WoTLK will be the same crap.

Do you really think that people who consciously play on Turtle WoW, as opposed to any other Vanilla private server or any other WoW version private server really care about Activision WoTLK? People are here, because they want to play Vanilla WoW with a twist. There are plenty of Blizzlike Vanilla, TBC and WoTLK private servers out there, yet a certain amount of people choose to play here. Activision WoTLK won't really change that.


Now on topic: It's high time for the Turtle WoW team to finally release the long overdue class changes. They were supposed to be released at the end of January 2022. Now it's... almost June 2022 and there are no changes in sight.

[Hibernate]

Do I really think so? Yes I do.
Now I fully understand your position. And I am on your side of the argument. Blizz made more mistakes than they should and yet they still continue to bring back players.
Turtle WoW does bring a few extra aspects to the game that deserve a larger population, but in my opinion, the greatest appeal that people want form this server is what they promised....class balance update. People deep down love change when they agree change is needed/wanted.
We all agree these classes need change. But still no changes. Not even an update.
But even after all the mistakes from Blizzard, what does WotLK bring to the table?
Change.
Now Im not saying that WotLK is the best option. Turtle is an amazing server which I plan on staying on. But people will move to the new shiny. With that you have to agree this will happen. Im not saying that Turtle WoW will die, but the daily population will dip at least temporarily.
Which brings us back to the beginning of all of this. We need this update. The competition of WotLK will be lessened against Turtle if this update comes out.

[Jesterjacks]

I'm agreeing that WOTLK will pull people away. But a change from classic is what some people want, not WOTLK. Here's hoping they bring the change sooner, or at least say something.

[Augustfenix85]

I won’t

[Augustfenix85]

I won’t be playing WotLK