Class changes are coming in Patch 1.16.0

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Moon
Posts: 12

Class changes are coming in Patch 1.16.0

Post by Moon » Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:57 pm

Greetings amazing community!

Since the start of Turtle WoW our mission has always been to provide a unique Vanilla experience by either picking up where Blizzard left off or, in this case, altering or enhancing certain existing aspects of the game to uphold current standards.

Since Turtle’s earliest days we’ve seen and heard players suggest class changes, all with differing opinions and viewpoints, each and every of these has been taken into account and we all wish to thank you for your passion and insights.

After much deliberation, many discussions and lots of tinkering the Turtle Team would like to announce our upcoming class changes that are planned for 15.2.

DISCLAIMER: All of these changes are tentative and subject to change. The final changelog will be published alongside the release of 15.2.

We want to welcome all of you to discuss & give constructive feedback on any changes made in this list.

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The vanilla design of the Druid is infamous for being pretty unfinished. Its mechanics weren’t fully realized until well into the first expansion. Because of this, there’s a lot of freedom on how to improve on the class while sticking with the “vanilla feeling.” That said, simply attempting to recreate the druid of later expansions is a cop-out, but we feel incorporating some iconic and fan-favorite abilities would be a good idea.

Changes to Baseline Spells

Claw now also deals 100% of weapon damage in addition to its current damage.
Note: This value is calculated on the invisible Claw weapon druid forms get when shapeshifting and does not correspond with your normal weapon.

Frenzied Regeneration now also heals for 1% of your Stamina.

Insect Swarm is now a Balance spell and available to all Druids starting at level 20.

Faerie Fire (Feral) is now available to all Druids starting at level 30.

New Abilities

Owlkin Frenzy
Attacks done to you while in Moonkin Form have a 15% chance to cause you to go into a Frenzy, causing you to be immune to pushback while casting Balance spells. Lasts 10 sec.

Savage Bite
Learned at Level 58 | Requires Bear Form | 30 Rage | 6 Second Cooldown
Savagely bites the target, dealing normal damage plus 61.

Talent Changes

Balance

Natural Weapons | Now 3 Ranks (down from 5)
Increases the damage you deal with physical in all forms by 4/7/10% and increases your chance to hit with melee attacks and spells by 1/2/3%.

Improved Wrath
Reduces the cast time and global cooldown of your Wrath spell by 0.1/0.2/0.3/0.4/0.5 sec.

Moonkin Form
Transforms the Druid into Moonkin Form. While in this form the armor contribution from items is increased by 360%, the Mana cost of your Moonfire, Starfire, and Wrath spells reduced by 20%, and all party members within 30 yards have their spell critical chance increased by 3%. The Moonkin can only cast Balance spells, Innervate, and Remove Curse while shapeshifted.

Omen of Clarity
Imbues the Druid with natural energy. Each of the Druid's melee attacks and direct damage spell casts have a chance of causing the caster to enter a Clearcasting state. The Clearcasting state reduces the Mana, Rage or Energy cost of your next damage or healing spell or offensive ability by 100%. Lasts 10 min.

Feral

Primal Fury and Blood Frenzy have had their existing effects combined into Primal Fury: Gives you a 50/100% chance to gain an additional 5 Rage anytime you get a critical strike while in Bear and Dire Bear Form and your critical strikes from Cat Form abilities that add combo points have a 50/100% chance to add an additional combo point.

Reduced the ranks of Thick Hide from 5 ranks to 3 ranks.
Increases your Armor contribution from items by 4/7/10%.

Feral Instinct reduced from 5 ranks to 3 ranks.
İncreases threat caused in Bear Form and Dire Bear Form by 5/10/15% and reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while PRowling.

New Talent: Blood Frenzy (Row 4) | 2 Ranks
Increases the duration of Tiger's Fury by 3/6 seconds and your Enrage now also instantly restores 5/10 rage. In addition, increases attack speed by 6/12% when either effect is active.

New Talent: Berserk (Row 5) | 6 Minute Cooldown
Removes all Fear effects and increases your energy regeneration rate by 100% while in Cat form, and increases your total health by 20% while in Bear form. After the effect ends, the health is lost. Effect lasts 20 seconds.

Restoration

Swiftmend has moved from a Row 7 to a Row 3 talent, replacing Insect Swarm.

Tranquil Spirit is no longer a prerequisite for the Row 7 major talent.

Improved Rejuvenation is now a prerequisite talent for Improved Regrowth.

Improved Enrage has been removed from the Restoration tree and has been integrated into the new talent Blood Frenzy.

Subtlety now also reduces threat generated from Balance spells.
Reduces the threat generated by your Healing and Balance spells by 4/8/12/16/20%.

New Talent: Tree of Life Form (Row 7)
Shapeshift into the Tree of Life. While in this form you increase healing received by 15% of your total Spirit for all party members within 30 yards, your movement speed is reduced by 20%, and you can only cast Swiftmend, Innervate, Nature's Swiftness, Rebirth, Barkskin, poison removing and healing over time spells, but the mana cost of these spells is reduced by 20%.

The act of shapeshifting frees the caster of Polymorph and Movement Impairing effects.

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Hunter’s main problem in vanilla comes down to two issues: DPS does not scale well with their gear so they tend to not be competitive in endgame stages, and their pets are particularly fragile in a raid setting, often leading to them not being used. Burning Crusade fixed these problems at the same time with pet scaling, Kill Command, and Steady Shot abilities - leading them becoming massively overpowered. Avoiding this while also addressing their vanilla issues can be done by not giving them all three at once.

New Abilities

Trueshot
A precise shot with a ranged weapon that strikes the target for X additional damage. (Cooldown of this ability is equal to the attack speed of your ranged weapon.)
Rank 1: 10 Additional Damage, 15 Mana
Rank 2: 20 Additional Damage, 40 Mana
Rank 3: 30 Additional Damage, 60 Mana
Rank 4: 40 Additional Damage, 85 Mana
Rank 5: 50 Additional Damage, 110 Mana

Lacerate
Wounds the target causing them to bleed for X% of your melee attack power over 21 sec.
(Value still under discussion.)

Aspect of the Wolf | 120 Mana
The hunter takes on the aspects of a wolf, increasing melee attack power by 120 and disabling the use of ranged attacks. Only one Aspect can be active at a time.

Avoidance | Pet Passive
Reduces the damage your pet takes from area of effect attacks by an additional X%.
Rank 1: 25%
Rank 2: 50%

Talent Changes

Beast Mastery

Improved Eyes of the Beast
Increases the duration of Eyes of the Beast by 30/60 seconds. While channeling this ability your tamed pet deals 5/10% additional damage and increases its focus generation by 10/20%.

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There isn’t much to improve on for the Fire and Frost mage specs in vanilla - they are tightly designed and synergize well with other mages very well. That said, Arcane falls far behind despite having an opportunity to fill its own niche, and the possibility of encouraging the Elemental Mage playstyle.

Changes to Baseline Spells

Arcane Missiles: Spell Power scaling coefficient has been increased: (0.24 -> 0.286)

Talent Changes:

Arcane

Improved Arcane Explosion > Arcane Impact
Increases the critical strike chance of your Arcane Explosion and Arcane Missiles spell's by an additional 2/4/6%.

New Talent: Brilliance Aura (Row 5)
Allows 15% Mana regeneration to continue while casting for party members within 30 yards. Lasts 30 minutes. Requires Arcane Meditation and Arcane Mind as prerequisite talents.

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Let’s be frank - the only good thing a paladin can do in vanilla is heal. Sure, with the right setup you can do decent tanking or decent dps, but it still doesn’t all quite come together. A lot of the potential and uniqueness to the class has always attracted people to it, but that was progressively lost over time in retail post-vanilla. We believe there is a lot of opportunity to help the Paladin perform more than just healing adequately without making them too powerful or “warrior-lite.”

Changes to Baseline Spells

Consecration is no longer a talent and is now available to all Paladins starting at level 20, its scaling coefficient has been increased (0.042 -> 0.119) and mana cost for all ranks has been reduced. Example: Rank 5 Mana Cost 565 -> 505

Judgement of Righteousness scaling coefficient has been increased: (0.5 -> 0.728)

Retribution Aura scaling coefficient has been added: (0.033)

Holy Strike cooldown increased from 8 seconds to 10 seconds.

New Abilities

Crusader Strike
A strike that causes X damage and increases the holy damage taken by the target by up to Y per Crusader Strike. Can be applied up to 5 times. Lasts 30 seconds.
Rank 1: 25 Mana, 12 Damage, 6 Bonus Holy damage per stack
Rank 2: 40 Mana, 27 Damage, 10 Bonus Holy damage per stack
Rank 3: 55 Mana, 46 Damage, 15 Bonus Holy damage per stack
Rank 4: 70 Mana, 69 Damage, 22 Bonus Holy damage per stack
Rank 5: 90 Mana, 103 Damage, 30 Bonus Holy damage per stack
Crusader Strike is not able to proc seals, damage-based procs, or refresh judgements.

Talent Changes

Holy

Healing Light (Row 3)
Increases the amount healed by your Holy Light, Flash of Light, and the effectiveness Holy Shock spells by 4/8/12%.

Holy Shock | Rework: (Values are for Rank 3):
Cooldown reduced from 30 seconds to 20 seconds.
Mana cost increased from 325 to 485.
Healing Increased from 365 to 628.
Damage increased from 365 to 496.

Lasting Judgements (Row 5) removed.

Protection

Redoubt and now has a 2/4/6/8/10% chance to activate off of any direct attack instead of being the victim of a critical strike.

Precision. Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons and spells by 1/2/3%.

Blessing of Kings has been moved from the Row 3] of the Protection talent tree to the Row 3 of the Retribution talent tree.

Shield Specialization. Increases the amount of damage absorbed by your shield by 10/20/30% and has a 33/66/100% chance to restore 1% mana when a block occurs. This effect cannot occur more than once every second.

Improved Consecration Aura has been moved from the Row 4 of the Protection talent tree to the Row 5 of the Holy talent tree.

New Talent: Improved Seal of Justice (Row 4). Increases the chance your Seal of Justice will stun the opponent by 22/33/67% and your Judgement of Justice has a 33/66/100% chance to taunt your target to attack you, but has no effect if the target is already attacking you.

Blessing of Sanctuary has been moved from Row 5 to Row 3 in the Protection tree.

Holy Shield moved from Row 7 to Row 5.

New Talent: Ardent Defender (Row 7). When you have less than 20% health, all damage taken is reduced by 35%.

Retribution

Seal of Command moved from Row 3 to Row 5.
Sanctity Aura has been moved from the Row 5 of the Retribution talent tree to the Row 3 of the Holy talent tree.
Greater Blessing of Kings' Mana Cost has been adjusted: (150 Mana -> 15% Base Mana)

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Shadow priests are notorious for being good, but also not. Their mana economy is horrendous and comes with several downsides other dps+caster hybrids don’t have to work around. The challenge for Shadow is to boost its utility and mana economy without increasing their power, as their damage per second is actually very good already.

Changes to Baseline Spells:

Holy Fire initial damage component scaling has been adjusted: (0.75 -> 0.857)

Divine Spirit (Row 5) is now baseline for all Priests starting at level 30.

Lightwell (Row 7) has been made baseline and is available for all Priests starting at level 40.

New Abilities

New Passive: Improved Shadowform. Reduces the Mana cost of your Shadow spells by 15% while in Shadowform.

New Ability: Pain Spike | Learned at Level 60 | 15 Second Cooldown
Causes 225 Shadow damage instantly, but the damage caused will begin healing itself over 5 seconds after landing.

New Ability: Shadow Nova | Learned at Level 60 | 635 Mana Cost | 30 Second Cooldown
Causes an explosion of cursed shadow around the caster, causing 181 to 209 Shadow damage to all enemy targets within 8 yards. This effect causes increased threat.

Talent Changes:

Shadow

Improved Vampiric Touch has been renamed as Vampiric Embrace: Increases the percentage healed by Vampiric Embrace by an additional 5/10% and your Vampiric Embrace now causes all party members to also gain mana equal to 1/2% of any Shadow spell damage you deal.

Holy

Holy Nova damage component scaling has been adjusted: (0.107 -> 0.161)

New Talent: Holy Champion (Row 7)
Allows you to choose another player as your holy champion, granting you several unique abilities:

Proclaim Champion | 250 Mana Cost | 10 Second Cast | 2 Hour Cooldown
Proclaim the friendly target as your champion for 2 hrs. Increases armor by 230, all resistances by 10 and allows the use of various Champion spells on that target.
Note: Persists through death and continues its duration and cooldown countdowns while offline.
Note: Armor buff does not stack with Scroll of Protection IV

Champion’s Grace | 250 Mana Cost
Bestow the target Champion with grace, increasing all healing done by the priest by 10%. Lasts 2 hrs.

Champion’s Bond | 250 Mana Cost
Creates a bond between priest and Champion. When the priest takes damage up to 20 will be taken by the Champion instead. Lasts 10 min.

Empower Champion | 1100 Mana Cost
Empower the target Champion, increasing all healing and spell damage done by up to 25 and attack power by 30. Lasts 2 hrs.
Note: Does not stack effects with Greater Arcane Elixir or Juju Power/Elixir of Giants

Summon Champion | 1150 Mana Cost | 10 Second Cast | 4 Hour Cooldown
Summon the priest's Champion from anywhere in the world.

Revive Champion | 81% Base Mana Cost | 2 Second Cast
Return the priest's Champion to life with 2500 health and 2600 mana.
Note: Cannot be cast in combat.

Discipline

New Talent: Reflective Shields (Row 5)
Causes 15% of the damage absorbed by your Power Word: Shield to reflect back at the attacker. This damage causes no threat.

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Not a lot to say for Rogues. If anything, Combat being the only viable talent spec in PvE all the way to late AQ40/Naxx is unfortunate. Debuff cap limits and some new abilities to add to their toolkit without majorly changing the way the class functions is something we believe Rogue players are looking for.

New Abilities

Surprise Attack | 30 Energy | 15 Second Cooldown
A strike that deals 100% weapon damage. This attack cannot be blocked, dodged or parried. Awards 1 combo point.

Flourish | 25 Energy
Finishing move that increases your chance to parry by an additional 20%. Lasts longer per combo point:
1 Point : 3 Seconds
2 Points: 4 Seconds
3 Points: 5 Seconds
4 Points: 6 Seconds
5 Points: 7 Seconds

Talent Changes

Combat

Dagger Specialization (Row 4) and Fist Weapon Specialization (Row 5) have been combined into Close Quarters Combat (Row 4): Increases your chance to get a critical strike with Daggers and Fist Weapons by 1/2/3/4/5%.

New Talent: Throwing Weapon Specialization (Row 5)
Increases the range of your throwing weapons by 3/6 yards.

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Elemental and Enhancement both have struggles in PvE that can be addressed somewhat easily. Restoration is pretty solid in vanilla, but its talent tree leaves a lot to be desired - something to keep in mind for the future.

Changes to Baseline Spells

New Rank 2 of Stormstrike added, learnable at level 60. Differences from Rank 1: Cooldown is 12 seconds as opposed to the 20 seconds of Rank 1. Costs 12% of your base Mana as opposed to 21% of your base Mana with Rank 1.

Talent Changes

Enhancement

Two-Handed Weapons (Row) and Parry (Row 5) are now baseline for all Shamans and trainable at level 20.

New Talent: Thunderhead (Row 3).
Allows your Lightning Shield to be cast on allies and reduces its mana cost by 20%.

Stormstrike has been moved from Row 7 to Row 5.

New Talent: Bloodlust (Row 7)
Increases melee, ranged, and spell casting speed by 20% for a party member within 30 yards. Lasts 15 sec.

New Shaman Racial Spells

Orc: Feral Spirit | 21% Base Mana cost, 5 minute cooldown
Summons two Spirit Wolves under the command of the Shaman for 20 seconds.

Tauren: Spirit Link | 21% Base Mana cost, 10 minute cooldown.
Link the spirits of an ally and their 3 closest allies within 15 yards together. When linked targets take damage, 10% is distributed among the other linked allies. Lasts 20 seconds.

Troll: Hex | 21% Base Mana cost, 5 minute cooldown.
Transforms the enemy into a frog that cannot cast, and does 60% less damage for up to 5 seconds. Only works on Beasts, Humanoids and Critters.

Restoration

Tidal Mastery (Row 1) and Totemic Focus (Tier 2) have switched positions.
Ancestral Healing (Tier 3) and Nature’s Guidance (Tier 4) have switched positions.

Elemental

Elemental Focus (Row 3) changed: after landing a critical strike with a Fire, Frost, or Nature damage spell, you enter a Clearcasting state. The Clearcasting state reduces the mana cost of your next damage spell by 40%.

Flame Shock initial damage increased and mana cost decreased:
Example: Rank 6
Mana Cost: 450 -> 410
Initial Damage: 292 -> 309

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PvE is the only area where Warlock has an issue - they’re boring! A class with as much cool stuff in its toolkit should not have to be limited to just spamming Shadowbolt exclusively. Debuff cap discussion aside, there are definitely ways to expand on the class fantasy of the Warlock in addition to addressing its singular issue. Something to also take into consideration for the future is that the Warlock talent trees went virtually untouched through the course of development through Burning Crusade. Also, similar to the Hunter, the Warlock’s demons are too vulnerable in raid settings with large amounts of AoE damage.

Changes to Baseline Spells:

Voidwalker's Torment now deals a very small amount of Shadow damage.
(Value still under discussion.)

New Abilities

New Ability: Mana Funnel
Rank 1: Level 40 | Transfers 18 mana from the caster to her pet every second.
Rank 2: Level 50 | Transfers 36 mana from the caster to her pet every second.

Talent Changes

Affliction

Improved Drain Life and Improved Drain Mana have been combined into one talent: Soul Siphon
Increases the Health drained by your Drain Life spell by 5/10% and causes 15/30% of the Mana drained by your Drain Mana spell to damage the opponent.

Demonology

Improved Enslave Demon reduced to 2 ranks (down from 5). Reduces the Attack Speed and Casting Speed penalty of your Enslave Demon spell by 10/20%, reduces the resist chance by 10/20%, and the casting time by .5/1 second.

Soul Link and Health Funnel will now work with enslaved demons.

Improved Healthstone, Improved Firestone, and Improved Spellstone have all been combined into one talent: Master Conjurer (Row 2). Increases the amount of Health restored by your Healthstone by 10/20% and increases the bonuses and effects of your Firestones and Spellstones by 15/30%.

Inferno cooldown reduced from 1 hour to 20 minutes and can now be cast indoors.

Fel Intellect has been reduced from 5 ranks down to 3 ranks. Increases the maximum Mana of your Imp, Voidwalker, Succubus and Felhound by 5/10/15%.

Fel Stamina has been reduced from 5 ranks down to 3 ranks. Increases the maximum Health of your Imp, Voidwalker, Succubus and Felhound by 5/10/15%.

Destruction:

Intensity (Row 4). Gives you a 70% chance to resist interruption caused by damage while casting or channeling any Destruction fire spell.

Pyroclasm (Row 5). Gives your Rain of Fire, Hellfire, Conflagrate, and Soul Fire spells a 25% chance to stun the target for 3 sec.

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Warrior in Vanilla is overpowered. Just straight up too powerful for the game. That being said, this just means that any change made to the class must down one of two things only: either optimize what doesn’t work but should for the class, or improve on suboptimal playstyles to allow for more options for the player. The changes proposed for the coming patch attempt to stick within those guidelines.

Changes to Baseline Spells

Thunderclap can now be used in Defensive Stance.

New Abilities

New Ability: Intervene | 10 Rage, 30 second cooldown | Requires Defensive Stance
Run at high speed towards a party member, intercepting the next melee or ranged attack made against them.
Note: Shares a cooldown with Intercept.

New Ability: Decisive Strike | 15 Rage | 2 Second Cast
Focus an attack equal to Slam (Rank 4) on an opponent. Can be cast while moving and will not suffer cast time pushback when taking damage.
Note: Credit to Wall (Video) of Wallcraft for his brilliant rework of Slam.
Note: The cast time of Decisive Strike is reduced by Improved Slam.

New Passive: Die by the Sword
Increases your chance to parry attacks by 20% while under the effect of Retaliation.

Talent Changes

Arms

Improved Thunder Clap (Row 2). Reduces the cost of your Thunder Clap ability by 1/2/4 rage points and increases the damage by 40/70/100%.

Polearm Specialization (Row 6) has been combined into Axe Specialization (Row 5) and renamed Poleaxe Specialization (Row 5).

New Talent: Improved Disciplines (Row 6). Reduces the cooldown of your Retaliation, Recklessness and Shield Wall abilities by 2/4/6 min.

Protection

Improved Shield Block has been reduced from 3 ranks down to 1 rank. Allows your Shield Block ability to block an additional attack and increases the duration by 1 second.

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https://talents.turtle-wow.org/

User avatar
Ratso
Posts: 1

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Ratso » Sat Nov 06, 2021 5:44 pm

At a quick glance those changes are really tasty. One thing i´d add to warlocks on the affli tree (probably more deep down) is some sort of dispell resistance on your magical and curse effects (like a 3 point talent wich gives 15% dispell resistance with each point) but im not sure if this mechanic even exists on vanilla clients.

Also intensity working for all fire destruction spells makes the epic pvp glove effects sort of useless (unless it stacks and then you can cast searing pain with 100% chance not to loose cast time). But tbh searing pain is a spell that i as a destrolock never use simply because immolate has a shorter cast time with the (3) set bonus of the same pvp set and it enables for conflag whilst also doing more base damage if you have the book for its last rank from AQ20. Some effect like "increases the casting time of searing pain by 0.5 sec but enables it to be used while moving" on pvp gloves would turn an otherwise useless spell into a handy filler for a class that feels so much like a sitting duck.

Also tauren shaman racial seems to have too much of a long cooldown for what it does, but i love the hint towards warcraft 3 skills on that class design and the bold move to go for racial skills. Imho all classes should have racials, they make the playstyle feel more unique and really gives more personality to one´s character, wich is very wellcome on an RP enviroment.

Warmane
Posts: 11

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Warmane » Sat Nov 06, 2021 5:59 pm

why not just build turtle wow upon 2.4.3 while removing the outland continent?

User avatar
Vasyan
Posts: 6

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Vasyan » Sat Nov 06, 2021 5:59 pm

Elemental Focus (Row 3) changed: after landing a critical strike with a Fire, Frost, or Nature damage spell, you enter a Clearcasting state. The Clearcasting state reduces the mana cost of your next damage spell by 40%.

why nerf?...

User avatar
Velite
Posts: 97

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Velite » Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:01 pm

Vasyan wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 5:59 pm
Elemental Focus (Row 3) changed: after landing a critical strike with a Fire, Frost, or Nature damage spell, you enter a Clearcasting state. The Clearcasting state reduces the mana cost of your next damage spell by 40%.

why nerf?...
It will proc more as you get better gear, so it'll be more consistent over time. It should lead to an improvement overall.

This also means shaman has near infinite mana on Loatheb due to the crit buff.
Last edited by Velite on Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Midsomer
Posts: 1

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Midsomer » Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:04 pm

Paladin seems super strong, at first glance the changes feel overwhelming.

User avatar
Jcarrill0
Posts: 188
Location: Azeroth

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Jcarrill0 » Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:08 pm

Warmane wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 5:59 pm
why not just build turtle wow upon 2.4.3 while removing the outland continent?
I do feel it starting to eb that way.

I remember Vanilla243 was that way and was pretty cool, it definitely removed alot of issues that the DEVS couldn't just do in Vanilla, so they just used TBC 243, set the cap at 60, removed outland and it worked out really well. for awhile.

Rayform
Posts: 9

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Rayform » Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:11 pm

I have a few questions regarding priest changes.

I see Divine Spirit is now a baseline spell, rather than a talent. Is that talent slot getting replaced? As I see no changes are made to the discipline talent. Is Reflective Shields that talent?

Also, about the Champion mechanic, I feel it's super cool, but no talent should give that many extra spells, in my opinion... Is it going to be more streamlined? I don't have space in my bars for that many more spells haha

Thanks for your effort, all the changes are very interesting and I'm looking forward to playing them! :)

User avatar
Merikkinon
Posts: 267

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Merikkinon » Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:18 pm

Kinda daunting having all those new abilities/talents, and old ones altered or removed. It's ok, just saying it will def take awhile to get used to (for those of us who are altoholics). But I welcome it (I also have little choice lol). So gonna take awhile to get used to.

Still, I find it exciting as can be for a game like TWoW.

My question: how much of this, if any, has been PTR-ish tested? (PTR-ish indicates some level of internal testing, even if you don't have a PTR).

User avatar
Ramue
Posts: 10

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Ramue » Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:29 pm

I like the changes I see over all, though I would like to see one more for priest...
Gib fearward for all races!! >0-0>

Warmane
Posts: 11

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Warmane » Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:43 pm

i'm absolutely agains class changes. Vanilla is amazing because it is the way it is. The changes made so far (paladin strike, mage unlocking) don't break vanilla experience, but this gonna make a new game.
In my opinion classes don't need new spells and talents, they need more appropriate gear. Shamans and paladins need to stop wearing cloth. Moonkin needs gear, and so on, you get my point.

User avatar
Velite
Posts: 97

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Velite » Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:56 pm

Warmane wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:43 pm
i'm absolutely agains class changes. Vanilla is amazing because it is the way it is. The changes made so far (paladin strike, mage unlocking) don't break vanilla experience, but this gonna make a new game.
In my opinion classes don't need new spells and talents, they need more appropriate gear. Shamans and paladins need to stop wearing cloth. Moonkin needs gear, and so on, you get my point.
Gear doesn't fix the problems with protection paladin, unless that gear has custom effects which accomplishes the same thing as new talent/spells anyway.

Allwynd01
Posts: 17

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Allwynd01 » Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:06 pm

I have always loved hunters as the per class.


One thing that really bothered me is that they can't really be a melee class by choice.


I've always wanted to see this in Vanilla - a Hunter that doesn't shoot Serpent Sting or whatever and leave their pet to hold the aggro.

I wanted to see a hunter that charges in with their pet and they start smashing the enemy with melee attacks.

I think the Survival tree is the most likely one that can be adjusted to do just that. And I don't mean traps - I mean the first 5-10 things you unlock from it grand you melee abilities such as:

- inflicting direct damage based on Agility, with reduced threat generated
- infliction bleeding (DOT) with reduced threat generated


and so forth and so forth...


Basically a melee fighter similar to a Warrior, but only wearing Leather of Mail armor, being very squishy if they take aggro and so forth.










------------------------------------------



Another class I think needs more diversity is Paladin - they need more active abilities rather than relying on auras or seals.

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Another class I feel needs a change is the Mage - they need to have their stupid Arcane tree completely removed and replaced with a Lightning three so they can use stuff like Chain Lightning that can affect multiple enemies at once.



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And finally there needs to be a Necromancer class who has the talent trees of Diablo 2:

- Summoning - Skeleton Warriors, Skeleton Mages, Blood Golem, Iron Golem
- Cursing - majorly acts in the department of putting curses (debuffs) on their enemies then destroying them with ease
- Bone - Bone Spear, Bone Teeth, Bone Prison... the works

Rangtuk
Posts: 1

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Rangtuk » Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:24 pm

Hunter changes look neat, but I got one more for you. Let thrown weapons be viable so we can rock the troll axe thrower vibe. I suggest turning thrown weapons into ammo (like arrows) and use the ranged weapon slot for a holster or "weapon belt" effectively, that way you can have a stat item like guns or bows would give, and thrown wouldnt be limited to 200 in the slot. Maybe dont force players to use a belt for thrown, make it like a "gain x% thrown attack speed while equipped" Could work for other classes too, hunters can use thrown quickly because of auto shot, but rest of the classes can use the normal "Throw" ability.

On a side note, wolf aspect seems solid but disabling ranged without giving a way to close gaps seems like it might not work, could do harpoon pull like retail or something simple like "x% chance to resist slows/roots" else i suspect hunters will be needing to carry FAPs around to bonk people

Furthermore, I love that arcane is getting some love, but feel like it could use another kick, arcane missiles still being a channel means its going to be poor compared to fireball or frostbolt. Would like to see it castable while moving (either when clearcast is active or however) or have arcane blast as a non-channeled arcane spell (i personally liked the arcane charge/barrage system of retail, but dont mind it working more like tbc or completely different, just having an arcane spell is can presence of mind wouls be nice tho
Last edited by Rangtuk on Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Darreno
Posts: 31

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Darreno » Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:32 pm

omg this is a lot to take in. I'm gonna need a few days to truly think about each change.

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Bayanni
Posts: 23

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Bayanni » Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:38 pm

I am worried about the Champion mechanic for priests being used like a 41st raider, where the Priest applies it to someone, probably a tank, and doesn't actually enter the raid instance. Will there be something in place to prevent it from being abused this way?



Also for Rogues, you could look deeper into the evasion/defensive rogue ideas that have floated around for a good while. Look at Sleight of Hand, Ghostly Strike, and Heightened Senses. All defensive talents that I'm not sure I've ever seen used even in PvP that could benefit from an overhaul of this magnitude. Below are some rough ideas just off the top:

- Dirty Deeds affects other defensive spells like Ghostly Strike, reducing their energy cost
- Sleight of Hand combined with Heightened Senses, moving the Feint threat reduction over to Camouflage or Elusiveness
- Add new talent: Passata Sotto (fencing term in line with Riposte in Combat Tree, sometimes called "The Night Thrust"), 20 energy, an attack that deals 100% weapon damage, causes a high amount of threat, increases your chance to dodge by X% (5?) and awards 1 combo point. Can only be used after a dodge.
- Add new talent: Improved Dexterity (3-5 ranks) (terrible name, placeholder), Increase the armor and dodge contribution from Agility by 150%-200% at max rank.
- Add new poison: Blindness Poison (made with Gift of Arthas or Blindweed, Dust of Decay, and 1 Crystal Vial), 10% chance to add a debuff to the target that reduces their chance to hit by X% (10?). Lasts 20 seconds. (PvP balance may be a concern, unsure).
- Add new poison: Anesthetic Poison (made with Blindweed, Deathweed, and 1 Crystal Viala 20% chance of poisoning the enemy which instantly inflicts 134 to 172 Nature damage, but causes no additional threat. Basically the TBC poison, gives added utility to rogues and doesn't make hunter's 100% mandatory for enrage mechanic bosses.

I am not saying rogues need bucklers, especially because of how tedious that could be, but instead rogues in this build path could add more room for defensive off-hand weapons like Dal-Rend's Guardian. This would open up a new design space that isn't really being explored and allow for some emergent gameplay styles to crop up.
I am not saying rogues could or should be raid tanks, or even lvl 60 dungeon tanks, but seeing a rogue tank RFD or SM legitimately would be pretty entertaining.

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Velite
Posts: 97

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Velite » Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:57 pm

Bayanni wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:38 pm
I am worried about the Champion mechanic for priests being used like a 41st raider, where the Priest applies it to someone, probably a tank, and doesn't actually enter the raid instance. Will there be something in place to prevent it from being abused this way?
Technically on classic if you buff people outside, the buff is removed when you pull a boss and that player is not inside with you. Which is to prevent paladins from buffing horde players for boss fights.

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Nerasw
Posts: 21

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Nerasw » Sat Nov 06, 2021 8:04 pm

Crusader Strike
A strike that causes X damage and increases the holy damage taken by the target by up to Y per Crusader Strike. Can be applied up to 5 times. Lasts 30 seconds.
Rank 1: 25 Mana, 12 Damage, 6 Bonus Holy damage per stack
Rank 2: 40 Mana, 27 Damage, 10 Bonus Holy damage per stack
Rank 3: 55 Mana, 46 Damage, 15 Bonus Holy damage per stack
Rank 4: 70 Mana, 69 Damage, 22 Bonus Holy damage per stack
Rank 5: 90 Mana, 103 Damage, 30 Bonus Holy damage per stack
Crusader Strike is not able to proc seals, damage-based procs, or refresh judgements.
I hope you will let us to stack Crusader Strike (CS) with Judgement of the Crusader(JotC)
there is 2 reasons for that:
1) if not stacked with JotC it will turn off usage of CS in raids completely cuz if you are not allowed to use JotC now who would be happy to see DEBUFF slot eaten by the same JotC(+10SP on top if 5 stacks applied) not big of a deal for Smite Priests to become raid friendly
2) if u have lets say 10 pallies in raid - u just override 1 dmg buff with BASELINE ability (1 only instant strike so far that u want to use cuz no alternatives at all) so JotC just deleted from the game

Lara3con
Posts: 3

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Lara3con » Sat Nov 06, 2021 8:24 pm

Personally I have no issue with changes in Class skills. My concern is that if you give us more ‘toys’ to play with, levelling becomes even more trivial than currently.
Mob abilities could be improved too. Extended debuffs on characters would be a good start. Poison effects increased from seconds to minutes for example, though there are many more. Even a few debuffs that persist through death would be nice….

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Tarluk
Posts: 31

Re: Class changes are coming in Patch 1.15.2

Post by Tarluk » Sat Nov 06, 2021 8:42 pm

Hot bloody damn! And here I thought we'd be lucky to have enhance shamans get two new keystone talents rather than 2H Axes/Maces and prot paladins get a proper taunt.
Paladin Changes
Most of these changes as a paladin main are YES. OH MY LORD YES.
Consecration being baseline was desperately needed for talent diversity; Prot Paladins and Ret Paladins can actually justify going deeper into Ret and Prot, respectively. Crusader Strike's...interesting, I remember that being from the beta like Holy Strike. Seems like it'd be pretty nice to have a filler spell while leveling, though I wonder how much it'd come into use in raids, especially if the debuff limit isn't high on the priority list for getting lifted anytime soon.

Holy Shock's neat, the cooldown being reduced to 20 seconds like in TBC, damage being increased by 35% is nice (can't believe it couldn't have just be rounded from 496 to 500 though smh angry_turtle) and the healing being increased by...90? Damn, that's a lot, albeit justified considering how little it was used in raids. Now it could be a proper healing cooldown, though maybe the healing would be a bit much in PvP?

I'm really thankful that Redoubt and Reckoning aren't based off of critical strikes anymore, Defense is actually gonna be useful again, Shield Specialization regenerating mana is a great change, I wouldn't have done it any differently, Blessing of Sanctuary / Holy Shield being 2 rows higher is great for leveling tanks and hybrid builds alike, and holy Jesus, we actually have a proper Taunt now.
However...I think it's really weird to have the taunt be locked behind a talent, for such an essential ability for Prot Paladins. Not to mention that having only 1/3 or 2/3 points in the talent meaning that your Taunt working is literally up to random chance just sounds really bad. Maybe at least the talent could instead influence the length of the Taunt, so that if baseline it's 0 seconds, each rank of the talent increases the Taunt length by 1 second up to 3 seconds. Or baseline it could be 1 second and then the talent increases it to up to 4 seconds. And Ardent Defender...I get that it's a talent from TBC, but it doesn't really make sense as a rank 7 talent in my opinion; here the health and damage values are twisted; in TBC it's 20% damage reduction while under 35% health, but here it's 35% damage reduction when under 20% health. I don't know about you, but if you're getting under 20% health, that sounds like a death sentence. If it weren't for the fact that the other 21-point talents aren't that good, it sounds like a talent that I wouldn't hesitate to skip, but maybe Laughadin has a different perspective on that.
Shaman Changes
2H Weapons and Parry being made baseline, like Consecration, was something that was very much overdue and fantastic. But the 11-point keystone talent in Enhancement is kinda baffling. Lightning Shield being able to be cast on allies is an interesting concept on paper, but to me it sounds like A) that would really clutter up Shaman's rotation if they have to constantly cast it on allies, and B) it just really does not seem like it has the impact that all the other keystone talents have. Many classes get a whole new ability, the other shamans get Clearcasting or a much wider totem radius, and Enhancement Shamans...can cast (or maybe have to cast) Lightning Shield on other folks. Wooo. The way I see it, keep Lightning Shield exclusive to Shamans, and have something else made specifically for shaman tanks as the 11-point keystone talent. Could be cool if maybe the 11-point talent unlocked some shield enhancements, like Rockbiter Shield, Flametongue Shield, etc. that have some special benefits for tanks that could be chosen from, like increased armor and block, flame resist and a Thorns effect, maybe even getting an extra attack upon a successful block for Windfury Shield, stuff like that.

Bloodlust sounds pretty neat, I think Enhancement having a support buff like that is great, especially since it ties in with what Shamans in Warcraft 3 could do. Though I think it'd feel pretty bittersweet in its current state, as it shares the same setting as Power Infusion and Innervate in a group setting the Shaman themselves is never really gonna be able to benefit from it; there's other classes that just flat-out do much more DPS and it's best to buff them rather than being able to lift your own DPS up. I think it'd be cool if targeting a friendly target with the buff applied Bloodlust to both them as well as yourself, so that both you and the other person can revel in that fun frenzy.

Shaman racial spells is an absolutely awesome concept. I feel conflicted as to how many caveats Hex has; a long cooldown, only being a partial CC (in that enemies can still attack under it), and a very short duration. If the duration were raised to at least 15 seconds, and maybe the cooldown lowered to 2 minutes or so, I think it'd be super rad. And since Spirit Link already sounds kinda niche, I don't think it has to have a 10-minute cooldown to make it even more niche; maybe 5 minutes or so. However, nitpicks aside, this is really bloody neat to see as someone who used to main Shaman for 12 years.
Mage Changes
Personally, I think a wee bit more should've been done for Arcane Missiles; the current effect for 5/5 Imp Arcane Missiles should be made baseline so that Arcane Missiles serves an actual purpose for non-Arcane Mages, with something else instead for the Arcane Missiles talent; it could be a simple damage buff, but a neat twist might be to have the Arcane Missiles spell increase its damage for every missiles that lands on the target, so each missile could do 5% more damage (additively) than the last. And it'd be neat if each missile had a separate chance to proc chance-on-spell effects like Clearcasting rather than the whole spell having one chance, because that could actually make actual Arcane have a real purpose for mana efficiency. And Brilliance Aura seems like a weird inclusion; it's cool that it'd be bringing something in from Warcraft 3 for mages, and if Brilliance Aura could be used only by mages that are going the Arcane Missiles route, that'd be one thing. But the Arcane tree is mainly designed in Vanilla as a general utility tree for the other two specs of Fire and Frost, and those frost mages who already use 31/0/20 as their ideal talent build could just pick up Brilliance Aura and provide even more power to the group for just doing what they already do.
Other Changes
There's not quite as much for me to say about the other classes. Druid's changes all sound pretty fine to me; I kinda wonder if there will be a glyph for those who don't necessarily want to have to use Tree of Life, maybe a green equivalent of the Glyph of Stars with leaves and such surrounding the player (not to say I don't like the cool little giving tree though smiling_turtle_head)

Everything else looks pretty decent at a first glance; the only part I find questionable is why a lot of these new abilities are only available starting at level 56-60. Why not have these introduced earlier into the leveling experience like every other ability in the game is?
Last edited by Tarluk on Sat Nov 06, 2021 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Main character: Keldren

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