How to Go Forward in Rebalancing (Poll)

[Dragunovi]

Another question for you guys, if you think tier sets should be reitemized how do you think the process can go to not ruin it for their previous users too?

[Suwuxiv]

I'd also like to make mention that I don't think it's really fair to tack on the "and buff forgotten Vanilla items" to one option over the others.

The poll votes between options 1,2,3 are equal. Option four is option three bundled with a thick layer of sugarcoating and seems to be the favored pick.

The majority of the discussion in this thread is about the sugarcoating, too. Rather than actually rebalancing custom items, which I believe is the true subject matter at hand here. So it kind of does make me wonder what people really voted for...

[Jimmicz]

I'd love to see paladin tier 1 and tier 2 done properly, blizzard retroactively turned them from tanking/healing/dps sets to strictly only Healing sets, but due to the stat alignment and further updates like Dire maul they are strictly worse than dungeon gear and worse than offpiece raiding drops, same with the set bonuses they are garbage. Instead i'd love to see tier 1 and tier 2 become a retribution/protection set, so that they are at least not disenchant/pvp gear only, like other classes' tier sets.

To expand on this a little more, I think many of the tier sets in general could use some reitemization.

Tier 0 is kinda shocking at just how inadequate it is for a lot of classes, I think it should keep its more flexible nature to have it be passable no matter what spec you play but it definitely needs a buff. Hell, maybe Tier 0.5 could be a little bit buffed as well for how hard it is to get that set in comparison to raid gear.

Tier 1 could also be fairly flexible, decent for any spec, though leaning slightly more toward one spec. For Paladins, it could be toward Prot and for Shamans, it could be toward Enhance, as both of these specs naturally need the largest array of stats out of all the specs.

Tier 2 and 2.5 could specialize more specifically for 2 different specs, for instance, Tier 2 Paladin could be for both Holy and Ret (and in extension Shockadin and Spell-Rets), Tier 2 Shaman could be for Resto but especially Elemental, Tier 2.5 Paladin could be for both Prot and Ret, and Tier 2.5 Shaman could be for Elemental/Enhance (great for Elemental Devastation builds).

Tier 3 could specialize into just one spec as it currently does now, with Tier 3 Paladin being for Holy and Tier 3 Shaman being for Resto.

Let me know what you think of that idea.

He's talking about CUSTOM items rebalance, nobody mentioned tier set balance ;) , but I do get your point being able to pick from a set that matches your spec (similar to TBC) might improve the "meme" specks like boomkin, etc.

[Balake]

Another question for you guys, if you think tier sets should be reitemized how do you think the process can go to not ruin it for their previous users too?

Hybrid specs could have a set for each of their specs like in TBC, and the bosses drop tokens instead. Or they still drop the original item but you can swap it for another spec's with a quest.

[Dragunovi]

Saw a few people talk about the TBC token system being applied for Vanilla tier sets, gonna discuss this with the team.

[Dandaman]

I voted rebalance, and I feel very strongly about two things: underwhelming sets for builds that don't get much support, and weapon skill. Of those, I think weapon skill has one of the biggest impacts on the way the game is played for melee, in a negative way. Having more non-weapon items that give skill would open up a lot more flexibility especially to races without skill. There are only 5 armor pieces in the game that give one-handed skill; of those, only edgemaster's and ACLG are particularly useful, and they are underwhelming... not to mention there are no armor items at all that give mace skill.

[Gheor]

I voted rebalance, and I feel very strongly about two things: underwhelming sets for builds that don't get much support, and weapon skill. Of those, I think weapon skill has one of the biggest impacts on the way the game is played for melee, in a negative way. Having more non-weapon items that give skill would open up a lot more flexibility especially to races without skill. There are only 5 armor pieces in the game that give one-handed skill; of those, only edgemaster's and ACLG are particularly useful, and they are underwhelming... not to mention there are no armor items at all that give mace skill.

There is, for Horde.
Custom item, Two Handed Mace skills.

[Velite]

He's talking about CUSTOM items rebalance, nobody mentioned tier set balance ;) , but I do get your point being able to pick from a set that matches your spec (similar to TBC) might improve the "meme" specks like boomkin, etc.

The fourth option listed rebalancing custom and non-custom vanilla items as well, that's whats being discussed.

I am assuming that the hybrid tier sets fall under the forgotten items category, which for anyone who raids in vanilla as a paladin or druid, you are never going to mc to upgrade to tier 1, and for paladins tier 2 even, you skip over these sets because 5 man gear is better. This only applies to these classes, though the priest tier 1 is also underwhelming, the shaman tier 1 has nice set bonuses and alot of mp5. So since these tier sets (paladin druid priest) which are very mediocre are forgotten they could be updated to at least work for a different spec, they are trying too hard to be hybrid sets and thus nobody uses them. It is only applicable to these 3 classes, since all of the other classes' tier 1 is by and large an upgrade over 5 man gear.

[Velite]

I voted rebalance, and I feel very strongly about two things: underwhelming sets for builds that don't get much support, and weapon skill. Of those, I think weapon skill has one of the biggest impacts on the way the game is played for melee, in a negative way. Having more non-weapon items that give skill would open up a lot more flexibility especially to races without skill. There are only 5 armor pieces in the game that give one-handed skill; of those, only edgemaster's and ACLG are particularly useful, and they are underwhelming... not to mention there are no armor items at all that give mace skill.

There is, for Horde.
Custom item, Two Handed Mace skills.

He means one-handed mace skill which he is correct there is no armor item for that, only the mace from aq40 and zg which take up a weapon slot. It's human/goblin or bust.

[Tarluk]

Saw a few people talk about the TBC token system being applied for Vanilla tier sets, gonna discuss this with the team.

I think the cons of the token system are, at the very least, worth considering.

1) You won't be able to equip tier pieces in the raid when you get them anymore, and it doesn't really feel as special to get a token as it does to just get the item directly from the boss.

2) I think that the tier sets in TBC don't quite have quite as strong an identity to them as in Vanilla, because for many classes in TBC, the tier sets had to be split into 2 or even 3 different versions; so for Shamans, Tier 4 was basically just "this totem does a tiny bit more" and "this keystone talent does a tiny bit more". Tier 5, a set that looked like it was made of molten lava, make your...Lesser Healing Wave better (not just on Resto, on all 3 specs btw) and gave you a tiny bit more mana/attack speed/casting speed on a certain proc. The Vanilla tier sets weren't perfect by any means, but they did at least feel more cohesive in their theming. The Tier 2 "Ten Storms" set had a cool feature that made heals apply a Lightning Shield charge onto your targets; if that was coupled with the Tier 3 bonus which made your Lightning Shield give mp5 when it was up or was generally a lot better for the Lightning Bolt-throwing Elemental shamans, it would've been amazingly cool.

3) A minor thing, but something that's always been silly and weird to me is that the vendors have the gear right on them, they could just give it to you to help you save the world and all that, but instead they withhold the gear from you in exchange for these illusive tokens or badges. I get that maybe they'd use the tokens as a basis to help craft the gear and all that, but if that's what it's going for, why have the vendors be the middleman when something much more interesting could be done with having professions as that middleman instead? Food for thought.

[Dragunovi]

Yeah I've been personally thinking about those myself, not really lore fitting and kinda destroys the charm of the old sets, perhaps it can be done for future raid sets with lore reasons attached. (aka Tier 3.5/4)

[Velite]

Saw a few people talk about the TBC token system being applied for Vanilla tier sets, gonna discuss this with the team.

I think the cons of the token system are, at the very least, worth considering.

1) You won't be able to equip tier pieces in the raid when you get them anymore, and it doesn't really feel as special to get a token as it does to just get the item directly from the boss.

2) I think that the tier sets in TBC don't quite have quite as strong an identity to them as in Vanilla, because for many classes in TBC, the tier sets had to be split into 2 or even 3 different versions; so for Shamans, Tier 4 was basically just "this totem does a tiny bit more" and "this keystone talent does a tiny bit more". Tier 5, a set that looked like it was made of molten lava, make your...Lesser Healing Wave better (not just on Resto, on all 3 specs btw) and gave you a tiny bit more mana/attack speed/casting speed on a certain proc. The Vanilla tier sets weren't perfect by any means, but they did at least feel more cohesive in their theming. The Tier 2 "Ten Storms" set had a cool feature that made heals apply a Lightning Shield charge onto your targets; if that was coupled with the Tier 3 bonus which made your Lightning Shield give mp5 when it was up or was generally a lot better for the Lightning Bolt-throwing Elemental shamans, it would've been amazingly cool.

3) A minor thing, but something that's always been silly and weird to me is that the vendors have the gear right on them, they could just give it to you to help you save the world and all that, but instead they withhold the gear from you in exchange for these illusive tokens or badges. I get that maybe they'd use the tokens as a basis to help craft the gear and all that, but if that's what it's going for, why have the vendors be the middleman when something much more interesting could be done with having professions as that middleman instead? Food for thought.

It's funny you should mention the token system, the issue with vanilla is that the token system was used starting after BWL. MC ONY and BWL are the only raids that don't use a token system, the rest of them do, but the reason the tokens existed was so that loot wouldn't be wasted and drop tables could be consolidated, it's weird either way from a lore perspective (where did the bosses get all this gear).

The immediate sense of upgrade does exist for some classes, but in many cases the item isn't yet an upgrade since it has yet to be enchanted, at least concerning tier 1.

[Tarluk]

It's funny you should mention the token system, the issue with vanilla is that the token system was used starting after BWL. MC ONY and BWL are the only raids that don't use a token system, the rest of them do, but the reason the tokens existed was so that loot wouldn't be wasted and drop tables could be consolidated, it's weird either way from a lore perspective (where did the bosses get all this gear).

Damn, I legitimately forgot that the post-BWL raids had tier systems. Shows how much I played of Classic before quitting (just before phase 4) lol.

To be fair, I think it works a lot better for smaller 10-20 man raids, when there's no guarantee of even having one of each class in the raid, let alone those who need the tier set and don't already have it. I think the Naxx token system makes some sense, involving profession materials into it is decently cool, but the AQ-40 token system just flat-out looks worse and more unnecessary than any of the other token systems, including the TBC ones.

[Jombo]

I would like to suggest a significant buff to both dungeon sets. I believe that sets for casters should give heal or magical dmg to a small degree and dungeon 0,5 should be slightly better than tier 1 in my opinion. The time and materials required for dungeon 0,5 is no laughing matter unlike how easily one can go to a raid and get a few t1 pieces.
Furthermore, I hope that with Black Morass and in general you will put the meaning back into 5 man instances at high lvl :-) Perhaps even a dungeon 3 set at some point. That would be great (coming from someone who loves to raid, but who also likes 5 mans)

[Rakura]

Since yall are rebalancing does this mean yall can also add in the ability for Druids to use Polearms / Spears?

[Emberlain]

Since yall are rebalancing does this mean yall can also add in the ability for Druids to use Polearms / Spears?

There is a separate forum post about that on the forums. Lots of support for that idea.

[Bayanni]

Saw a few people talk about the TBC token system being applied for Vanilla tier sets, gonna discuss this with the team.

I want this.
I can't count the number of times I've heard from more than one raid group that "It's [class] day I guess" when one class with 1-2 people in a 40-man raid somehow gets a tier piece at every boss that drops one while others that are starving for gear go for a month straight without even the chance to roll on a tier piece. That's one of the largest benefits of a token system, making nexus shards actually worth something to guilds instead of a guaranteed drop.