How to Go Forward in Rebalancing (Poll)

Poll: How do you think rebalancing items should go?

Poll ended at Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:22 pm

Don't change anything.
4
3%
Only buff underwhelming custom items.
6
5%
Fully rebalance custom items.
4
3%
Fully rebalance custom items, and buff forgotten Vanilla items.
105
88%
 
Total votes: 119

User avatar
Dragunovi
Posts: 165

How to Go Forward in Rebalancing (Poll)

Post by Dragunovi » Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:22 pm

Hello there, item designer Dragunovi here. The question of how to go about in the item rebalancing has been quite a hot topic in our discord for a long time now, and I believe it's finally time to ask the playerbase on their opinions and suggestions on this matter.

There are several options for this as you can see in the poll options. This doesn't mean that these balance changes will happen immediately, but it is likely that they will happen with the release of version 1.15.2 (If they are accepted), you will be alerted ahead of time of course.
Also most nerfing balance changes will not directly weaken items, just distribute offensive stats into defensive stats like Stamina in most cases, to widen the gap an item have with its closest upgrade as to make that upgrade more meaningful and earned, making item progression overall more enjoyable
I'll explain them for better understanding.

1. Don't change anything.
Even if I'm not a fan of this option it should be listed. It's basically leaving everything in their first iteration aside from very severe/emergency broken item balance issues.

2. Only buff underwhelming custom items.
This would serve to bring custom items weaker than their counterparts up to speed with similiar items.

3. Fully rebalance custom items.
This means custom items can be buffed, nerfed and totally reworked if needed to preserve the item balance, all within reason of course.

4. Fully rebalance custom items, and buff forgotten Vanilla items.
This is basically option three and an interesting extra on top. This would mean items that were made before Blizzard's item philosophy wasn't quite evolved to be brought up to around the same level current item design is, this would primarily apply to profession items like Mooncloth Robe and Timbermaw recipe items like Heavy Timbermaw Boots. Even if these ideas might sound cool to some, others might not like Vanilla items being tampered with so I seperated this from Option 3.

Make sure to leave your thoughts and possible ideas as comments in this thread!
Still making items...
Dragunovi - Level 60 Human Tankadin
Dragunir - Level 60 Dwarf Shadow Priest
Dragun - Level 17 Troll Hunter
Dragunis - Level 60 Human Warlock
Zephyris - Level 60 Elemental Shaman

Soulex23
Posts: 2

Re: How to Go Forward in Rebalancing (Poll)

Post by Soulex23 » Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:31 pm

It'd be interesting to see what gets rebalanced, and if there's any sort of ideas you guys have for specs that have underwhelming gear at endgame (sv hunter, feral DPS druid, etc.).

I will admit I'm not one of the ones who has hard memory of anything beyond lvl 40, aside from very vague memories of my dad playing when I was 5 or so.

Jombo
Posts: 44

Re: How to Go Forward in Rebalancing (Poll)

Post by Jombo » Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:39 pm

I really would love to see some rebalancing. There are so many completely useless and laughable blue items in vanilla that it would be a shame not to fix them at least to a decent level.

Toirto
Posts: 19

Re: How to Go Forward in Rebalancing (Poll)

Post by Toirto » Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:42 pm

I feel very happy we are mostly agreeing on option 4

I always believed that this was nessecary at some point.

User avatar
Qixel
Posts: 147

Re: How to Go Forward in Rebalancing (Poll)

Post by Qixel » Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:03 pm

The game should be fun. I won't claim to speak for everyone, but I played Vanilla 16 years ago. Classic is available on official servers, and there are countless "authentic" private servers. There is no shortage of options if you desire "the real thing". Turtle should embrace change.

User avatar
Tamamo-no-Bae
Posts: 26

Re: How to Go Forward in Rebalancing (Poll)

Post by Tamamo-no-Bae » Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:07 pm

Qixel wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:03 pm
The game should be fun. I won't claim to speak for everyone, but I played Vanilla 16 years ago. Classic is available on official servers, and there are countless "authentic" private servers. There is no shortage of options if you desire "the real thing". Turtle should embrace change.
I 100% agree with this

Sonpansatan
Posts: 9

Re: How to Go Forward in Rebalancing (Poll)

Post by Sonpansatan » Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:12 pm

Out of all the reasons that people enjoy vanilla WoW, I don't think "Spirit on Warrior Gear" is one of them.

User avatar
Stenerjoe2
Posts: 23
Location: Denmark

Re: How to Go Forward in Rebalancing (Poll)

Post by Stenerjoe2 » Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:35 pm

I actually dont think there's enough cloth gear with strenght on.



Option 4 pls.
Emmizabeth - Smite Meme
Kath - Ret Meme
Yuma - Totem Meme

User avatar
Velite
Posts: 93

Re: How to Go Forward in Rebalancing (Poll)

Post by Velite » Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:41 pm

I'd love to see paladin tier 1 and tier 2 done properly, blizzard retroactively turned them from tanking/healing/dps sets to strictly only Healing sets, but due to the stat alignment and further updates like Dire maul they are strictly worse than dungeon gear and worse than offpiece raiding drops, same with the set bonuses they are garbage. Instead i'd love to see tier 1 and tier 2 become a retribution/protection set, so that they are at least not disenchant/pvp gear only, like other classes' tier sets.

Image

https://classicdb.ch/?item=16860-0

OLD PALADIN TIER 1 GLOVES WAS A TANKING ITEM!!!!!! Then it was abandoned by blizzard, just like the spec, and became a healing item neutral_turtle_head !

Image
Last edited by Velite on Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Suwuxiv
Posts: 24

Re: How to Go Forward in Rebalancing (Poll)

Post by Suwuxiv » Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:56 pm

I voted Only buff underwhelming custom items because I believe nerfing good items people spent time farming from custom content would just be a disservice to them.

Vanilla was never about being overly balanced. In fact, what makes it good (and stand out from future iterations of WoW) is it's actually rather broken. But all in a fun way.

Aydea
Posts: 4

Re: How to Go Forward in Rebalancing (Poll)

Post by Aydea » Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:59 pm

From what I have seen so far of the server, you people understand the game for the artwork and cultural artifact of its time that it is. I can see it in every bit of the custom content that was created by you people. But not just that, you people also seem to understand what the game tries to be, what it tries to do, and how it tries to make people -feel-. This kind of deep understanding of an artisan working on an artwork, knowing what they do and understanding their work and the artwork, is what I can see everywhere in all of the custom content that was developed and added to the game.

And with it, I can also see an enormous amount of .. love. A builder's and artisan's love. For something that is already beautiful but could be so much more so. And you people don't just have this artisan's wish to make that happen, you also know to do it and very skillfully at that.

In the two month's have been here now I have been in a state of nearly constant awe asking myself in my mind "how can this be? How can something like this exist in today's world?" The answer is think-ably simple. Because enough people -wish- it and build it and bring into existence.

This server is an oasis in terms of things that you won't find easily in what has become and continues to become of the current world we live in. And it shows, as you can see that this server has drawn a community of people who feel drawn to such things.

Therefore, I am confident that the server's item balance is in good and capable hands with you people and personally I believe you will do a truly phenomenal job at it.

Thank you

Adrenalize74
Posts: 1

Re: How to Go Forward in Rebalancing (Poll)

Post by Adrenalize74 » Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:34 pm

Biggest things that needs to be rebalanced is Hunters quiver slot and Warlock soul shards.

2 things that have always really annoyed me is how a Hunter has to give up an entire bag slot for arrows! And why arent soul shards stackable? Completely ridiculous of Blizz to do that.

My $0.02

User avatar
Tarluk
Posts: 31

Re: How to Go Forward in Rebalancing (Poll)

Post by Tarluk » Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:57 pm

I'd especially love to see profession items get rebalanced so that they can feel a lot more viable while leveling up and at endgame, so that axesmiths aren't the only blacksmiths with viable endgame stuff.

Maybe some of the leveling blues and especially epics you get from world drops could be improved to be better while leveling, such as maybe the Guardian Blade having a bit more armor and DPS to make it actually desirable amongst many of the blue 2Hders you can get at the same level, or Black Duskwood Staff also triggering on spell hit in addition to melee hits?

Hell, maybe there could be new rare mobs added that have a higher chance to drop a certain blue or even epic at a higher chance than the incredibly low world drop chance. Maybe Silverpine Forest could have a fallen knight wielding the Guardian Blade, and they'd have a 10-20% chance to drop it as an item. An evil warlock or necromancer in Duskwood could hold the Black Duskwood Staff and have a similar droprate.
Main character: Keldren

Reman
Posts: 3

Re: How to Go Forward in Rebalancing (Poll)

Post by Reman » Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:30 pm

Qixel wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:03 pm
The game should be fun. I won't claim to speak for everyone, but I played Vanilla 16 years ago. Classic is available on official servers, and there are countless "authentic" private servers. There is no shortage of options if you desire "the real thing". Turtle should embrace change.
Well said, I fully agree.

User avatar
Tarluk
Posts: 31

Re: How to Go Forward in Rebalancing (Poll)

Post by Tarluk » Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:59 pm

Velite wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:41 pm
I'd love to see paladin tier 1 and tier 2 done properly, blizzard retroactively turned them from tanking/healing/dps sets to strictly only Healing sets, but due to the stat alignment and further updates like Dire maul they are strictly worse than dungeon gear and worse than offpiece raiding drops, same with the set bonuses they are garbage. Instead i'd love to see tier 1 and tier 2 become a retribution/protection set, so that they are at least not disenchant/pvp gear only, like other classes' tier sets.
To expand on this a little more, I think many of the tier sets in general could use some reitemization.

Tier 0 is kinda shocking at just how inadequate it is for a lot of classes, I think it should keep its more flexible nature to have it be passable no matter what spec you play but it definitely needs a buff. Hell, maybe Tier 0.5 could be a little bit buffed as well for how hard it is to get that set in comparison to raid gear.

Tier 1 could also be fairly flexible, decent for any spec, though leaning slightly more toward one spec. For Paladins, it could be toward Prot and for Shamans, it could be toward Enhance, as both of these specs naturally need the largest array of stats out of all the specs.

Tier 2 and 2.5 could specialize more specifically for 2 different specs, for instance Tier 2 Paladin could be for both Holy and Ret (and in extension Shockadin and Spell-Rets), Tier 2 Shaman could be for Resto but especially Elemental, Tier 2.5 Paladin could be for both Prot and Ret, and Tier 2.5 Shaman could be for Elemental/Enhance (great for Elemental Devastation builds).

Tier 3 could specialize into just one spec as it currently does now, with Tier 3 Paladin being for Holy and Tier 3 Shaman being for Resto.

Let me know what you think of that idea.
Main character: Keldren

User avatar
Bayanni
Posts: 21

Re: How to Go Forward in Rebalancing (Poll)

Post by Bayanni » Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:21 am

Lionhorn needs to be an actual decision to disenchant rather than the 100% worst item ever made

User avatar
Velite
Posts: 93

Re: How to Go Forward in Rebalancing (Poll)

Post by Velite » Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:22 am

Bayanni wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:21 am
Lionhorn needs to be an actual decision to disenchant rather than the 100% worst item ever made
Lion horn of stormwind would actually be a good item, and appropriately strong as a world epic, if instead of offering 250 armor for 5 party members when the person is hit, it offers 1000-1250 armor for the person hit. Conceptually it is the "tank trinket" world epic, and in a group setting, only the tanks would be getting hit by physical damage, so similar to devotion aura the benefit only applies to tanks, which makes having to divide the armor by the party members from a design perspective cause it to be a poor item.

There are just many items that don't stand out or are considered useless because new content patches during retail vanilla invalidated them, and it's those items I hope the developers look over, as many of these items are crafted recipes or rare drops, necks with int spirit and 0 spellpower (like the world epic necklace). The worst offenders being items which are not only superior in terms of stats, but also in terms of availability and commonality.


^
|
|
|
|
|
item
quality
|
|
|----------------rarity-----------------------> well designed itemization generally follows this scale


Classic example Robes of the Exalted vs Mooncloth Vest. 5 int 11 spirit 68 healing vs 12 stam 20 int 19 spirit. Robes requires running stratholme undead, while it is among the more challenging of the 5 mans, can be done in a 10 man group on this server and with good compisition isn't all that challenging. Mooncloth vest requires 4 Mooncloth, which either requires gold to pay for, or almost a week of waiting on cooldowns.

I don't expect mooncloth vest to be superior to robes of the exalted, but for the amount of investment required (considering the recipe itself is a world drop), I would at least expect mooncloth vest to be superior to dreamweave vest, which has 9 int 14 spirit and 18 damage and healing, and requires not even 10% of the material cost. If I were to rebalance the item, I'd give mooncloth vest the same stats but +48 healing. The issue at hand here, that the vest was created prior to the robes and was made in an era of the game (release) when much of the items was just pure stats and not spell power or healing. It never received any updates and is hardly crafted or used ever.
Last edited by Velite on Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:33 am, edited 6 times in total.

User avatar
Lichenwitch
Posts: 49

Re: How to Go Forward in Rebalancing (Poll)

Post by Lichenwitch » Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:25 am

Aydea wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:59 pm
From what I have seen so far of the server, you people understand the game for the artwork and cultural artifact of its time that it is. I can see it in every bit of the custom content that was created by you people. But not just that, you people also seem to understand what the game tries to be, what it tries to do, and how it tries to make people -feel-. This kind of deep understanding of an artisan working on an artwork, knowing what they do and understanding their work and the artwork, is what I can see everywhere in all of the custom content that was developed and added to the game.

And with it, I can also see an enormous amount of .. love. A builder's and artisan's love. For something that is already beautiful but could be so much more so. And you people don't just have this artisan's wish to make that happen, you also know to do it and very skillfully at that.

In the two month's have been here now I have been in a state of nearly constant awe asking myself in my mind "how can this be? How can something like this exist in today's world?" The answer is think-ably simple. Because enough people -wish- it and build it and bring into existence.

This server is an oasis in terms of things that you won't find easily in what has become and continues to become of the current world we live in. And it shows, as you can see that this server has drawn a community of people who feel drawn to such things.

Therefore, I am confident that the server's item balance is in good and capable hands with you people and personally I believe you will do a truly phenomenal job at it.

Thank you
i just want to second this beautifully well-worded post. smiling_turtle_head
satisfied_turtle_head Jules, the Satyr insidious_turtle

Beertaster
Posts: 1

Re: How to Go Forward in Rebalancing (Poll)

Post by Beertaster » Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:45 am

This is a Classic+ server and the + should be embraced. The server will thrive on changes. I've heard people complain over new spells added before, but new stuff is the selling point.

Adding to one class will inevitably bring "mains" from other classes complaining that their favs arnt getting attention or have raid/pvp threaghtened. Its inevitable and I hope the devs pay them no mind and just make cool stuff.

Because Iccant resist adding suggestions

Some cool low end leveling weapons would be nice. Crescent staff and staff of westfall are the 2 best dps weapons in their range and are on all warrior leveling guides. It's not very rp for warriors to run caster staffs. So why not add a neat two hand weapon alternative? Most the server would end up useing it on an alt, and if there's a fun effect on it then all the better.

Momo
Posts: 3

Re: How to Go Forward in Rebalancing (Poll)

Post by Momo » Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:35 am

Changes are fine with me, as long as they do not make the item considerably worse. Imagine wearing an item and later finding out that it was nerfed and you should have rolled for the other item months ago that is now better than the one you have. If there are any nerfs it would be best decision to release v2 of that item, and leave original untouched for those who have it already.

Post Reply