Poll: Undead Hunters — yes or not?

[Torta]

Greetings!

We plan to re-introduce Dwarf Mages in game in the upcoming 1.15.2 update. As a Horde counterpart to them, we could add Undead Hunters. However, it's a controversial idea, since it's hard to make them fit to the Vanilla Lore and many would disagree that they should exist. Hence we've decided to ask our players prior making this happen or scrapping the idea all together.

Please, keep in mind, that silent voting for poll won't be taken on the account, please write a reply why you voted one way or another. The other possible race / class combo which we think would be a good one are Troll Warlocks, but sadly this race already have 6 classes available. So, if you have a new race / class combo proposal, please check if race has a free slot.

Thank you!

[Derikom]

It makes sense less from the "beast master" angle and more from the "ranger" angle, I mean their leader was the Ranger-General of Quel'thalas and their faction's champion was the only human (like the playable Forsaken!) to ever join the Farstriders and make it up to Ranger Lord. I would go so far as to argue that Forsaken hunters make more sense than Gnome hunters, which were already added.

Also troll warlock is still my dream character so if you do find a way to make it happen expect my undying devotion. ;)

[Tikithekitty]

It makes sense less from the "beast master" angle and more from the "ranger" angle, I mean their leader was the Ranger-General of Quel'thalas and their faction's champion was the only human (like the playable Forsaken!) to ever join the Farstriders and make it up to Ranger Lord. I would go so far as to argue that Forsaken hunters make more sense than Gnome hunters, which were already added.

Also troll warlock is still my dream character so if you do find a way to make it happen expect my undying devotion. ;)

i agree to that and imo even if you don't think that's true they were with orcs and trolls for a while "teamed" up to take on arthas :P it would seem unwise of them to not share tricks with each other

[Ramue]

Don't think they make any less sense then gnome hunters. And considering their faction leaders are Slyvanas and Nathanos who are both froesaken "hunters" (more rangers but close enough) it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility at all imo.

[Boccaccio]

"You know, us goblins don’t exactly “get along” with nature, know what I mean? <Viz winks slyly to you.> I’m gonna teach you how a goblin tames a pet. The right way. Take this rod. It has a special collar that I call the “Friend Request”. You put this around their neck and you're done, get me? They’ll be yours forever." -Viz Fizbeast

Like goblins, you could say forsaken don't make sence as beast masters / friends. What a forsaken hunter is could be explained by a trainer just like Viz Fizbeast does.

[Axoc]

Turtle WoW additions are modeled after Warcraft 3 lore. Undead was the only faction in WC3 to have a "Hunter" style Hero Unit, the Dark Ranger. Others have mentioned Sylvanas & Nathanos, but there were nearly a dozen other Dark Rangers in WC3 that were mentioned by name.

Undercity is a fledgling nation that is fighting a two-front war (Alliance & Scarlets) while struggling to deal with multiple issues and power struggles within its own borders. Nations and armies in this situation typically use highly mobile recce troops that can be quickly moved to face threats at short notice.

We see this in-game with Orgrimmar, which is also a fledgling nation struggling to survive in an inhospitable area while struggling to deal with internal power struggles and plots. Orgrimmar uses the Warsong Outriders and Rexxar to provide this service. We also saw it in-universe in Warcraft 3 with the Quel'thalas rangers conducting these types of missions to try to defend against Arthas. Undercity just...doesn't have anyone to conduct those types of missions, which is a plot hole. This is a plot hole because Sylvanas and Nathanos are both aware of what services the Q'T rangers provided to the defense of Q'T. Sylvanas literally does it herself during the Warcraft 3 "Fall of Quel'thalas" arc. Sylvanas was the leader of the Q'T Rangers and so she should be able to train a new order of rangers in service to Undercity.

Further evidence is that Undercity never abandons its Lordaeron/Quel'thalas heritage. The symbol of Undercity is a misshapen Lordaeron crest just like how the vast majority of Undercity citizens are now misshapen citizens of Lordaeron. The clothing styles of Undercity are torn and shredded versions of human clothing, just like how the citizens of Undercity are torn and shredded versions of their human selves, etc. Why would they abandon only one specific aspect of their heritage and maintain the rest of their culture? If they chose to abandon one specific thing, why would they abandon arguably the most important tool they have to secure their borders and defend their country from invasion?

It feels more like a "Blizzard ran out of time" issue than an actual lore issue.

[Gheor]

"You know, us goblins don’t exactly “get along” with nature, know what I mean? <Viz winks slyly to you.> I’m gonna teach you how a goblin tames a pet. The right way. Take this rod. It has a special collar that I call the “Friend Request”. You put this around their neck and you're done, get me? They’ll be yours forever." -Viz Fizbeast

Like goblins, you could say forsaken don't make sence as beast masters / friends. What a forsaken hunter is could be explained by a trainer just like Viz Fizbeast does.

Glad that made some sense..
I always felt wierd about writing that.

[Kott]

It is very sad, that we are going to waste an opportunity to get a new race class combination for the horde on that. Orcs and taurens or even goblin could get something, that would be neat, but no, thank you very much.
At least from the point of "mage for hunter" it looks fair.

[Rayform]

Please do implement them! I'm a huge advocate for adding new race-class combos of any kind. Being a RP server, I think it's important for people to be able to express themselves in that way; you guys did a fantastic job justifying both Orc mages and Gnome hunters, so I strongly believe you can justify forsaken hunters too. Fallen rangers sharing their knowledge to strengthen the Forsaken forces would be awesome.

[Gnarbrok]

Voted "yes". The only "lore" counterargument I could think of is that pets/animals are unlikely to want to hang out with the undead. But this counterargument seems weak to me - surely plenty of meals, scratches, and "good boys" will eventually make your pet loyal! With that counterargument dispensed with, undead hunters seem like a natural addition (and, as other have pointed out, undead rangers are well-established in lore), so a "yes" vote seems appropriate.

[Torta]

It is very sad, that we are going to waste an opportunity to get a new race class combination for the horde on that. Orcs and taurens or even goblin could get something, that would be neat, but no, thank you very much.
At least from the point of "mage for hunter" it looks fair.

Orcs already got Mages in 1.15.0. Taurens are pretty limited in what they could do. I personally cannot imagine Tauren Priests or Rogues?

[Mrkrissatan]

I voted yes because I'd play one and I've never played a hunter before, at least not before wrath when the ammo and happiness mechanics where changed.

[Mrkrissatan]

It is very sad, that we are going to waste an opportunity to get a new race class combination for the horde on that. Orcs and taurens or even goblin could get something, that would be neat, but no, thank you very much.
At least from the point of "mage for hunter" it looks fair.

Orcs already got Mages in 1.15.0. Taurens are pretty limited in what they could do. I personally cannot imagine Tauren Priests or Rogues?

Make the meme real, I want to make a Tauren rogue called Invisibull lol

[Tortuga]

NO
1. The undead classes reflect those of humans (minus pallies, for obvious reason). So while there's no human hunters, there's no reason for undead hunters to exist.
2. Appeals to Dark Rangers: irrelevant, Dark Rangers are rare, sort of an elite class / hero units, not a something one meets every day.
3. Illogical to common sense. No animal will be loyal to a half-rotten body, no matter if that body moves and hisses.
4. "But they could learn from the Orcs!", yes, and they could also learn to be shamans or druids, why not, right? Hunters, as well as druids and shamans, are all about the nature, and here we have a race of unnatural abominations after all. The only natural way for them is to rot and decay, not attract animals with their rotten smell.

[Totalmxo]

Like others have said, Nathanos and sylvanas are both rangers, so in my opinion, it makes way more sense than gnome hunters. I also always like having more choices and more customization! Also a lot of arguments I’m seeing that are against this are using logical fallacies to prove their point lol.

[Qixel]

I continue to vouch for the complete opening of all classes for all races. Blizzard didn't care about the lore when deciding them, and neither should we. So, yes, undead hunters would be great. For those saying it makes no sense, gnomes can be warriors and hold back the blows of dragons, orcs can be in tune with the elements of a world they tried to destroy, and undead can already be priests. It's a fantasy game. Stop being hypocritical about when sense matters.

[Torta]

I continue to vouch for the complete opening of all classes for all races. Blizzard didn't care about the lore when deciding them, and neither should we. So, yes, undead hunters would be great. For those saying it makes no sense, gnomes can be warriors and hold back the blows of dragons, orcs can be in tune with the elements of a world they tried to destroy, and undead can already be priests. It's a fantasy game. Stop being hypocritical about when sense matters.

I agree that even existing class / race combos are not perfect. Lore consistency is a good thing but in this case it makes no sense to think what's possible and what's not. We have Undead Holy Priests already, you know.

[Mrkrissatan]

+1 for all race all class

[Qixel]

I imagine a limiting factor would be expanding the class selection beyond 6, just from a technical standpoint, but lorewise there's no issue. <3 We have non-male-ight-elf druids, we have undead priests, we have orc warlocks. Every argument is more or less defeated by the existence of those three (how did they learn, how is it possible, how is it tolerated?), so it's fine. <3

[Grayhammer]

I think Undead hunters have a right to exist, I would however edit them to be dark rangers and allow them to have their class-Race, and possibly adding another to ally to further diversify the factions.

Just something to consider. (Or simply have the pets all take undead form/models)

[Bayanni]

I know it's basically a meme at this point, but Tauren really do need another class.
They're the only race with four class options while all of the rest have at least five.
Mage/Warlock is of course right out for tauren, which just leaves priest, rogue, and paladin, all of which I'd be ok with but totally understand the implications of tauren paladins and imbalancing pvp like that.
Honestly, cow priest is the most likely to work lore-wise but also the most work for the devs with the custom spells and balancing and whatnot. I'd much rather tauren get something new because they need it gameplay-wise.

All that said, yes to dwarf mages, and I'd be good with dwarf shamans too.

[Merikkinon]

I agree that even existing class / race combos are not perfect. Lore consistency is a good thing but in this case it makes no sense to think what's possible and what's not. We have Undead Holy Priests already, you know.

And bingo...

Anyhow, I am in support of undead hunters.

Mainly because other than 'paladin', I can't see Tauren being rogues, warlocks, mages or priests. Doesn't fit. Neither does Paladin, and there is the Vanilla shaman/pally split (which is fine).

Hence, I just don't know another Horde balancing race/class that wouldn't be kinda offensive to lore.

So Undead Hunter it is (best option).

[Velite]

I know it's basically a meme at this point, but Tauren really do need another class.
They're the only race with four class options while all of the rest have at least five.
Mage/Warlock is of course right out for tauren, which just leaves priest, rogue, and paladin, all of which I'd be ok with but totally understand the implications of tauren paladins and imbalancing pvp like that.
Honestly, cow priest is the most likely to work lore-wise but also the most work for the devs with the custom spells and balancing and whatnot. I'd much rather tauren get something new because they need it gameplay-wise.

All that said, yes to dwarf mages, and I'd be good with dwarf shamans too.

A tauren priest would be a good candidate to get fear ward on the horde actually.

[Tortuga]

I continue to vouch for the complete opening of all classes for all races. Blizzard didn't care about the lore when deciding them, and neither should we.

This is really a good point. And had it be like just "all classes for all races", I'd be full heart for Yes. (At least, no-one is forced to play a combo they don't like)
But the question was "we need to compensate Horde for Dwarf mages, should it be Undead hunters?", so I oppose. There are other combos that would be really appreciated on Horde (already mentioned it the thread), esp. Taurens need some ❤

[Valadorn]

I would like to mention that if Undeads have Hunters, Humans should also have them, but I sadly understand that there can not be more than 6 classes / race, which is pretty sad.

[Exizefra]

Undead hunters as for me is more logical and lore-friendly than undead priests. Hunter is the absolutely materialistic class without any divine/magic/spirit presence - so i don't see any logical restriction for the undeads to be hunters. Neither the humans (yes, i know about game restriction - and it's sad).

[Tortuga]

i don't see any logical restriction for the undeads to be hunters

Except that they don't need to hunt, and that animals do not obey rotting corpses

[Mrkrissatan]

Except that they don't need to hunt, and that animals do not obey rotting corpses

They hunt man, the most deadly game of all!

As for animals not obeying, well that's just an excuse to add undead versions of more pet families for them to tame or have a racial for undead hunters that reskins their pets to a zombified version if it's really that game breaking for you.

[Balake]

Why the pets would not obey. Is it because Undead smell very bad?

For the not needing to eat argument, the hunters we play are combatants, not people who's job it is to hunt for food. The Forsaken army logically would employ archer units, they would be valuable against the Scarlet Crusade for example.

[Sandtusk]

Id say there are quite a few pets that would match an undead aesthetic: spiders, bats, demon hounds, carrion, fel bears/wolves from felwood.

Go for it

[Tortuga]

more pet families

Will not happen

[Augustfenix85]

Lorewise there are Forsaken who were once High Elves.

[Pfwg]

I continue to vouch for the complete opening of all classes for all races. Blizzard didn't care about the lore when deciding them, and neither should we. So, yes, undead hunters would be great. For those saying it makes no sense, gnomes can be warriors and hold back the blows of dragons, orcs can be in tune with the elements of a world they tried to destroy, and undead can already be priests. It's a fantasy game. Stop being hypocritical about when sense matters.

What engie said

[Jimmicz]

Undead hunters only if they can build their pets from limbs, skins, and bones!

[Warwarlock]

A lot of people mess around between the mechanics and lore. Lore-wise, many things seem to have their logic; nothing prevents one to become something known as a paradox or a freethinker that defies his own culture. The problem with this, however, is making the writing appealing. Then the mechanics follow with their implies in the game. Humans already have 6 classes, and each side has its class balance - no paladins for the Horde and no shamans for the Alliance.
Speaking in general about the undead, there is nothing that would prevent them to become hunters. Some people sought to claim that to be a hunter, one must have an affinity for nature and beasts.
According to Ranger Sallina in TBC, being a hunter means:
1) to be a master over the beasts;
2) to be perceptive and focused in marksmanship;
3) to be able to survive using the opportunities in situations.
That's one of the perceptions told by an NPC. Mastery over the beasts doesn't exactly incline that now to be a hunter, you must know every inch of Petopia - from a worm to a silithid colossus. It's enough to have some proficiency in the field, and the Forsaken (just as the humans) aren't outside that aspect. In life, the undead had the knowledge on how to tame beasts like horses to their service. As explained in "War Crimes" and skeletal horse manuals, it's told that the aspect of the beast doesn't nearly change in undeath; they continue to follow their routine while being completely oblivious to their nature. We know from real-life stories that loyal pets remain with their owners even if they have passed away. Spiders have no feature that would make them repulsed by the undead as most of the spider population was altered by magic the way the dark hounds were. Plus, cockroaches, anyone?
In life, humans wielded (and still wield) ranged weapons like bows and crossbows, having the proficiency on using them, and in undeath that proficiency would remain. Hemet Nesingwary is a famous hunter who hunts for sports and has the knowledge about the "big games" that would bring inspiration to many bounty hunters, and he's just a dwarf armed with a gun!
The last hunter aspect about the survival would also apply; human trappers that are experienced in tracking certain creatures and use trapping methods to disable them? A hunter who uses a camouflage, a moment of surprise and venoms to overpower their stunned prey?
In conclusion, to be a hunter, you don't necessarily need the magic to become a proficient tamer, skilled shooter, witty trapper lore-wise. Those 3 tree hunter builds just represent one of the hunter aspects. The magic can be applied like in DnD to eventually amplify skills and become something like a spellbow that shoots conjured bolts of magic. The only barrier is the mechanics, and if this server can bypass such, I say 'let them do so'.