Tyrande is harsh towards High Elf refugees

[S1lver1us]

In Warcraft 3 Tyrande, High Priestess of Elune, escorted Kael'Thas and the Blood Elf refugee caravan and protected them from the Undead Scourge. She even sacrificed herself for them when they were about to be overrun by the Undead.

In the custom quest "Appealing to the Alliance: Night Elves" https://database.turtle-wow.org/?quest=40375 Tyrande seems too harsh towards the High Elves:

"This again?! Must I remind everyone that the Highborne were responsible for the Legions invasion? And again, they betrayed us by unleashing a magical storm on Ashenvale. Not to mention their stubbornness to reject their use of Arcane magic and even having the audacity to spread its use to the Human nations. We will have no part in this, so our answer remains clear. The Night Elves won't allow history to repeat, and we refuse to let Quel'dorei join the Alliance. You got your answer, now go. I do not wish to waste my time on this topic again."


Warcraft 3 Story Tyrande and Maiev meet Kael'Thas - Night Elf Campaign:

Maiev Shadowsong: We are wasting time here, Tyrande. We should be out looking for Illidan!
Tyrande Whisperwind: These people need our help, Maeiv! Their brethren aided us against the Legion. We will honor that debt now.

Prince Kael'Thas: We'll stop here for provisions. Sadly I have only a few warriors left. The Scourge has pressed us hard these last few months.
Maiev Shadowsong: Kael, where are your High Elven brethren? Do they not fight the Undead as you do?
Prince Kael'Thas: The Scourge devoured our ancient homeland of Quel'Thalas. The once proud bloodline of my people is nearly spent. The few of us that remain now call ourselves Blood Elves, in homage to our murdered people.
Tyrande Whisperwind: I grieve for your people, Kael. But you must not allow rage and despair to poison your heart. You may yet lead your people to a brighter future.

Tyrande as a High Priestess should be more willing to heal and help people in need.

[Redmagejoe]

I tend to agree that the quest feels like it ignores canon a great deal.

[Qixel]

It's inspired by the legion era Tyrande, where she never missed an opportunity to shit on the nightborne for the actions of their ancestors.

[Redmagejoe]

Except the lore mission statement for this server is literally that none of that TBC onward is canon. This is an alternate storyline "heavily inspired by Warcraft 1, 2, 3, and vanilla WoW". So Tyrande's attitude should be reflective of how she was portrayed in those media.

[Qixel]

Not defending, just explaining.

[S1lver1us]

It's inspired by the legion era Tyrande, where she never missed an opportunity to shit on the nightborne for the actions of their ancestors.

Yeah I found that especially strange too, since Tyrande already welcomed the Highborne back into Kal'dorei society back in Wotlk/Cata https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Shen%2 ... _Highborne

[Galendor]

I agree, her reaction is too harsh.
All this "We don't want to see high elves in the Alliance" from her is a bit strange. Her people already collaborated with high elves in the past (both in Hyjal and in Silverpine, when Kael's elves didn't play with fel magic yet), there are high elves in the Alliance cities such as Theramore and Stormwind who already fight under the Alliance banner. I believe that both night and high elves have silimal feelings about blood elves too. And her reference to Highborne makes sense only when she talk about highborne (for example, Shen'dralar) , not about their descendants.

[Tamamo-no-Bae]

Actually it is based on the lore from the time about High and Night elf relations and how Night elves as a whole treated High elves in the Alliance.

Kael's turn to Illidan only cemented those feelings in Tyrande after she chose to trust him.
It is up to you as a High elf to prove them all wrong.

Tyrande suddenly ignoring all prior lore to welcome the Highborne into Night elf society while still shitting on the Blood elves in Cata was far far more egregious though since the Highborne were directly the ones responsible for the sundering.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/High_e ... ight_elves
Check the relations part in particular.

[Calevarn]

I agree that Tyrande's portrayal here is excessively hostile and should be changed to better reflect her character as it existed in Warcraft III.

Mind you that Tyrande fought side by side with Jaina, and the mages of the Alliance, even during the War of the Ancients her life was saved by Dath'remar Sunstrider and his Highborne. She never showed any outright contempt for the arcane itself, and was willing to work with mages, and demon hunters (in the case of Illidan) if it meant achieving a greater good.

She evidently isn't so stringent, and nonetheless feels herself indebted to the Thalassian people for their heroics on Hyjal.

Her interaction here should be far friendlier, or neutral at worst. There is absolutely no reason for her to lose composure in a fit of rage like this.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/High_e ... ight_elves
Check the relations part in particular.

Please be advised when reading articles that they are accurately providing citations. An article without references cannot be considered reliable. Wikis can be edited by anyone, and misinformation is a risk.

The author of this article, from 2007 I add, makes a lot of claims about how the night elves and other races treat with the high elves, but all the citations to back these claims seem either broken or missing.

In the best case scenario, these may be pages from the RPG which have lost their citations, in the worst one, this is someone passing their own suppositions as canon.

Nevertheless, even if we assume these were statements from Blizzard, I'd argue that Tyrande Whisperwind is her own person and doesn't necessarily need to act according to the popular beliefs of her people.

She certainly didn't when she freed Illidan.

Kael's turn to Illidan only cemented those feelings in Tyrande after she chose to trust him.

A couple of logical issues follow with this statement:

• How does Tyrande even know that Kael'thas sided with Illidan? He did not pledge himself to Illidan until he fled from Dalaran and went to Outland, long after the night elves had left from Lordaeron.

• I thought that the playable high elves of Turtle were not the blood elves that followed Kael in Warcraft III. So, why would Tyrande hold them responsible for the actions of a completely different group of elves? It seems a little silly.

In conclusion, I strongly encourage the Narrative Design Team to reconsider this approach to Tyrande. In being completely honest, this degree of mischaracterisation is something that we often get frustrated at Blizzard for. Please, please be more mindful of the characters you are writing for, research them thoroughly and ensure that the sources you read are cited accordingly and are not dated too far beyond the time of vanilla.

[Calevarn]

If I may, I would also like to make my suggestion of an alternative response from Tyrande, which perhaps could be more suited to her character, while still touching on the topics mentioned in the current version of the dialogue:

"You inherit an ancient heritage, child of Quel'Thalas. Your forebears were great in their deeds: those nobly done in the name of righteousness and those driven by terrible ambition.

Yet when the Burning Legion returned, your kin stood beside mine. I would not forget that.

A crossroads now lies before your people, wise with the lessons of history, it is your choice upon which path you shall tread and whether it will reach for the light, or descend into the darkness.

Be welcomed into the Alliance and know that you have my aid and counsel."

My thinking is that I feel this to be more faithful to Tyrande's genuine concern and care for the Thalassian elves "I grieve for your people, Kael", and it is consistent with her precedent of giving aid and counsel to the elves as she did in Warcraft III (Shards of the Alliance), while still acknowledging that the Highborne also carry their share of sins (The War of the Ancients), as well as their share of good deeds (Lord Kur'talos Ravencrest, and the Battle for Mount Hyjal).

[S1lver1us]

If I may, I would also like to make my suggestion of an alternative response from Tyrande, which perhaps could be more suited to her character, while still touching on the topics mentioned in the current version of the dialogue:

"You inherit an ancient heritage, child of Quel'Thalas. Your forebears were great in their deeds: those nobly done in the name of righteousness and those driven by terrible ambition.

Yet when the Burning Legion returned, your kin stood beside mine. I would not forget that.

A crossroads now lies before your people, wise with the lessons of history, it is your choice upon which path you shall tread and whether it will reach for the light, or descend into the darkness.

Be welcomed into the Alliance and know that you have my aid and counsel."

My thinking is that I feel this to be more faithful to Tyrande's genuine concern and care for the Thalassian elves "I grieve for your people, Kael", and it is consistent with her precedent of giving aid and counsel to the elves as she did in Warcraft III (Shards of the Alliance), while still acknowledging that the Highborne also carry their share of sins (The War of the Ancients), as well as their share of good deeds (Lord Kur'talos Ravencrest, and the Battle for Mount Hyjal).

I really like this, it shows Tyrande as a wise and nurturing Priestess while at the same time shes speaks with the stern authority of a General(She used to be General of the Sentinels before Shandris took over).

Also good points on Illidan, she did in fact forgive him in the end even after he made clear he was still addicted to magic.

[Tarandral]

Actually it is based on the lore from the time about High and Night elf relations and how Night elves as a whole treated High elves in the Alliance.

Kael's turn to Illidan only cemented those feelings in Tyrande after she chose to trust him.
It is up to you as a High elf to prove them all wrong.

Tyrande suddenly ignoring all prior lore to welcome the Highborne into Night elf society while still shitting on the Blood elves in Cata was far far more egregious though since the Highborne were directly the ones responsible for the sundering.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/High_e ... ight_elves
Check the relations part in particular.

With all due respect, just because something else was -more- egregious doesn't make ignoring warcraft 3 lore (which, to be frank the high elves themselves already do) okay. It feels like the writers let way too much post wc3 lore bleed over in their opinions when the whole point was to go from wc3 as a baseline.

[Tamamo-no-Bae]

Actually the baseline was Vanilla, but using Wc3's roots and plot as the basis to go forward. We wouldn't retcon vanilla lore. So material that existed during vanilla is very much taken into account.

She forgave Illidan yes, but she has a far stronger bond with Illidan and Illidan has repeatedly shown himself to stand with them when it counted.

Ultimately I don't mind perhaps making her dialogue a little less hostile but she is meant to be very mistrustful.

As for the source I linked, I assure you the citations were valid back in 2006.
A lot is from lore books or the RPG.

[Shamma]

"Tyrande has not idea how to lead our people!" Tyrande is a Cunt. Has always been.

[Calevarn]

As for the source I linked, I assure you the citations were valid back in 2006.
A lot is from lore books or the RPG.

I want to caution a little on your intention here to use the RPG, especially when it comes to high elf - night elf relations. A lot of that writing, which you quoted in your previous response, is contradictory with what vanilla and Warcraft 3 actually provide.

This is what the RPG gives as a reason why night elves and high elves despise one another:

""The years of conflict between the night elves and the high elves number so many that they make the Alliance and Horde conflict look like children arguing over a toy."

(World of Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game, pg. 12)

But this is contradicted by both the vanilla in-game book,"The Exile of the High Elves" and the passage on the Exiles of the High Elves from the Warcraft III manual (found here), where there is no conflict lasting years beyond count with tremendous losses.

It should also be pointed out that the RPG also states that the high elves are actively trying to usurp Ashenvale from their hated night elven cousins (page 178). Again, I would make the argument that this is contradictory with how the high elves are portrayed both in vanilla and TurtleWoW; these overly antagonistic undertones really do not fit.

Illidan has repeatedly shown himself to stand with them when it counted.

As did the high elves on the Battle for Mount Hyjal, like it was portrayed in Warcraft III, I would assume

Ultimately I don't mind perhaps making her dialogue a little less hostile but she is meant to be very mistrustful.

That is very reasurring to hear, but I would still like to challenge your motives for wanting her to be 'very mistrustful'.

Your inspirations for this exchange seem to come exclusively from the Relations pages of the RPG book, which generalise what the thoughts and opinions are between the night elves and the high elves.

I really want to stress this: Tyrande is an individual, the popular views or attitudes of her people are not necessarily her own.

Using the Relations page to supersede on what Warcraft III has written for Tyrande is logically flawed, because what night elves think isn't automatically correlated with what Tyrande thinks.

Let me put it under other lenses for you.

In Turtle's Mulgore, there is a friendly centaur called Kherra who breaks from the mould of the aggressive and savage centaur and seeks to show her good will to the tauren.

Would it be a legitimate argument if I said that Kherra should be hostile to tauren because all other centaur are as well?

Of course not!

Likewise, I can make this argument for an endless roster of characters or groups. E.g. Should the Grimtotem be peaceful because all other tauren are peaceful? Should Thrall have been bloodthirsty because many orcs were? Why is Alterac siding with the Horde when all other humans sided with the Alliance? Why is Tyrande forgiving Illidan when all other night elves don't?

All my other previous points also still stand. To my knowledge, Tyrande has never shown any outright distrust or hostility in any novel or Warcraft III lore for the arcane or practictioners of the arcane. Whom she has worked with and aided on many, many occasions.

I really do believe her interactions with Kael'thas should have served as a baseline for this exchange and should have not been overwritten by a RPG page that is not even addressing Tyrande specifically.

[Calevarn]

I could make a second suggestion to the Narrative Design Team that if Tyrande's character in the quest was simply replaced by any custom-made character, perhaps a disciple of Fandral, any issues with the dialogue of the quest would also be immediately resolved, as this new character could have whatever reason to be as hostile and as mistrustful as you fancy.

Fandral himself could be used as well, a lot of this would very much be in his character's tone rather than Tyrande's.

[Tamamo-no-Bae]

Nah it is crucial that it is Tyrande. Tyrande always had that harsh character, and is mistrustful of those seeking to potentially damage the forest.

Remember when Malfurion suggested that they ally with the Orcs and Humans in the Warcraft 3 campaign but she was like: No, those outsiders are responsible for killing Cenarius, they must die.

It wasn't until Medivh summoned them together that she mellowed out a little.

Furthermore, the High elves who helped in the Battle of Mount Hyjal are not the Silvermoon Remnant, those High elves live in Theramore and were a small minority of Jaina's contingent.

But as I said I will look into the situation.

[Calevarn]

the High elves who helped in the Battle of Mount Hyjal are not the Silvermoon Remnant, those High elves live in Theramore and were a small minority of Jaina's contingent.

But as I said I will look into the situation.

Kael'thas and his blood elves also weren't part of the Battle of Mount Hyjal and Tyrande was willing to give her life for them.

So I don't think that argument goes too far either.

The Warsong orcs did indeed kill Cenarius, and by the time Tyrande makes that remark, the orcs and humans were still cutting down holy trees in her sacred forest, it was a reasonable assumption to make that the humans, by siding with the orcs, were allies of Cenarius' killers. This is nowhere close to the context Turtle's high elves find themselves in. And, as you mentioned, she changed her stance by the end of Reign of Chaos:

"Perhaps I have misjudged you outlanders. May Elune shine upon you!"

(Note: she is saying this to Jaina, a sorceress, no less)

Either way, very glad to hear.

[Tamamo-no-Bae]

Kael'thas and his elves were a special case. First of all...
1. They were in a rush to find Illidan
2. Tyrande is empathic, and she is willing to put aside her misgivings to help someone in need
3. They were in a strange land filled with Undead that they knew little about

Kael'thas then went and sided with Illidan and the Naga.
Something which is well known and frowned upon as the truth about the Illidari was discovered. Tyrande may have forgiven Illidan but she does not approve of his ways.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Resear ... _(Classic)

As said, Tyrande would feel burned by Kael after she helped him and he went down that path.
From her point of view, Kael betrayed the Alliance, sided with Naga, then went and joined Illidan on another world and indulged in fel magic.

She is meant to be mistrustful because she does not want a repeat of either the original Highborne or Kael. As said, perhaps the text can be edited to make her a little less confrontational.

The High elves end up proving her wrong by not only showing they're different than Kael, but that they can be trusted, seek a new beginning, and are not their ancestors.

[Calevarn]

1. The night elves went out of their way to help the blood elves. Helping them out actually slowed them down, as Maiev protests during the mission.

Maiev Shadowsong: We are wasting our time here, Tyrande. We should be looking for Illidan.

Tyrande Whisperwind: These people need our help, Maiev!

2. I'm glad you acknowledge this.

3. While plausible, I'm not sure that's ever brought up as a reason. Tyrande seems to be focused on helping, with the promise that then Kael will help them against Illidan, though the element of genuine care is there nonetheless.

I'd also argue against Tyrande helping the blood elves being 'a special case', I'm not sure that is true:

When she first met Broxigar, an orc, her first instinct was to feed and heal him.

"“But are not all the children of Elune? Does he not have the right to come to her for guidance, make use of all facets of the temple?”

(Chapters 8 and 20, from the Well of Eternity novel)

She also did the same for the Furbolg (Enemies at the Gate and Brothers in Blood WC3 chapters).

And Dath'remar's Highborne.

With each step, the escape slowed and by Tyrande's estimation, it would not be long before the Highborne came to an utter halt.

[...]

Whether or not she survived, Tyrande could not stand idly by while others perished.

(The Sundering, page 115)

And with Eranikus, one of the dragons of the Nightmare who is attacking Moonglade and who sought to kill her beloved Malfurion. She chooses to heal Eranikus rather than kill him:

Tyrande Whisperwind yells: You will be forgiven, Eranikus. Elune will always love you.

(Source: https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Eranik ... redemption.)

Kael'thas then went and sided with Illidan

I bring back the same point I made in my first response.

I am not sure how Tyrande, or most people really, would be aware of this considering it happened a whole planet away, on Outland.

Secondly, Turtle's high elves aren't part of Kael's group, they're not even blood elves.

Even in other Turtle interactions with the high elves, the high elves themselves don't appear to know that Kael sided with Illidan, there's some muddled information on the Naga, but I don't know why Tyrande should be comfortable expressing judgement here with so little understanding when she herself accepted the help and was saved by the Naga and a half-demon in The Brothers Stormrage.

Something which is well known and frowned upon as the truth about the Illidari was discovered

All the quest you've linked indicates is that the blood elves dabble in demonic magic. Which yes, is known; blood elf Dark Strand cultists even appear in Ashenvale during questing alongside the Naga and Satyr from which you get those brains. But it makes no mention of Illidan.

We've also established Tyrande has no issue with the Highborne, or mages, as she routinely worked with both.

So yes absolutely, she definitely shouldn't be this confrontational, and all this negative mistrust is really out of character when compared to how she approached the blood elves in Warcraft 3. Yes, she doesn't approve of Illidan's ways, yes she is most likely disheartened at the fall of the blood elves, yes she is very violent against aggressors, but the high elves are coming to her for help, would it not be much more consistent to offer the high elves help and guidance towards a better path, as she did in the past, rather than stifling them?

Hell, she thinks Illidan, with all the demonic fire burning in his veins, is not beyond redemption, but in your opinion, she would say that the high elves aren't worth the chance? Come on!

Ultimately, I get you're trying to tell your story for the high elves here, that they're overcoming a prejudice, correcting the bad reputation some of their disgraced brethren may have gotten and proving that they are better than that.

It's nice, I like it, it makes sense many night elves would be mistrustful, hateful even, and it gives an opportunity for the high elves to further define their identity and separate themselves from the rest. Fandral, or characters as opinionated as him, would be ideal for this. I'm not sure why Tyrande is the one who 'crucially' has to take this role instead.

If we really have to use her, and again I think she's not the best candidate for what the story is trying to tell, couldn't she simply offer the high elves guidance and ask them to prove themselves, therefore still reaching the same conclusion?

[Andromath]

To be fair to the Turtle WoW Devs, even Blizzard couldn't remain consistent with Tyrande as a character.

Tyrande is one of the worst candidates in WoW's history as far as flip-flopping goes in her personality and behavior. In WC3 we saw her free Illidan, ally with the Blood Elves very cordially, and work alongside mages as if their practice wasn't abhorrent to her, or brought up any sort of PTSD-induced episodic rage/trauma from her early life experiences in the Highborne Empire and the War of the Ancients.

In WoW's lifetime we've seen her barely able to contain her contempt for mages, although this is with the caveat of her frustrations being focused solely on those with a link to the ancient Highborne Empire. We've never known Tyrande to have any kind of antipathy for Jaina, for example, but we do know she thought quite poorly of the people of Suramar, having no faith that they wouldn't produce another Azshara, and seeing them as acceptable losses to protect her own people.

When it comes to the High Elves, however, things get really murky. In Vanilla we saw that High Elf NPCs weren't typically welcome in Night Elven lands (which may be less to do with Tyrande, and more to do with her people). We also saw a degree of racism with references alluding to Night Elves being particularly wary of permitting High Elves near their Moonwells.

Anyways, I think Tyrande's speech here might be on the extreme side, but I also don't think its necessarily out of character for her either. Turtle WoW's High Elves aren't those that were with Kael'thas (and thus helped save her life), or Jaina (whom helped defend Nordrassil during the Third War). Much like the Nightborne of Suramar, she's speaking to those elves whom did not act in defense of Azeroth, but sat by while terrible things happened (to her perspective, and given that she's not omnipotent, it should be flawed like this).

I think there's also something to be said for the idea that this outright hostility is her own challenge to the Silvermoon Remnants, to prove her wrong, to be better than their ancestors. Tyrande is not the soft mothering type. She's the chosen priestess of a Warrior Goddess. She should want the Alliance to be strong, to have strong allies, and if that means a little verbal abuse to wound some Quel'dorei pride and light a moonfire under their collective rumps, so be it.

Seeing her attitude mellow out in the future would probably go a long way towards assuaging any concerns about her characterization as well. Tough love is still love.

[Kefke]

I can see her being reluctant, but she really ought to be less harsh. Especially since the refugee High Elves aren't really the same as the high elven society that she seems to be so hostile to. This is a group that have been humbled by their failings, and are trying to rebuild themselves. They are actively seeking a cure to their mana addiction. If anything, she should see in them the chance for them to be better than they once were. She might need them to prove themselves, but she should genuinely want for them to have the opportunity to do so, and hopeful for what will come of it if they can.

[Etarpylon]

I'd reword the quest text as thus:

"Hrm... it seems we are on the same side once more. It has been ages since this has last occurred.

I will say I have some trepidations regarding the return of the Quel'dorei into the Alliance, but... I am more concerned about my husband's political rival - Fandral Staghelm. He has been recently causing problems for us with other people who aren't in the Alliance: the Tauren people. I am concerned he will undermine any diplomatic efforts I wish to undertake with High Elves, in the same way he has undermined our friendship with the Tauren.

I am also concerned, of my own accord, that we will wind up enemies again. I have seen firsthand what happens when people stubbornly refuse to change for the betterment of themselves.

Inform your people of my approval, with due haste. I must prepare for my people's disapproval."

[Andromath]

If its a matter of rewording it, I might suggest...

"The Alliance may welcome the Quel'dorei once more, but we have not forgotten the War of the Ancients, nor all the sorrows that followed in the wake of the Sundering.

"My people have troubles enough to contend with, without a refugee populace spreading through our lands. The lamentable state of the Quel'dorei is well known to us, and while it is within our power to ease their burdens, it is our duty to ensure our sacred groves are not defiled. Will these refugees find the balance their ancestors spurned? Or will the sins of the past repeat once more?

"Mother Moon has not revealed to me the path the Quel'dorei will take. Perhaps the soul of their people is so uncertain even she cannot see their fate. I cannot condone their presence within the Alliance at this time. Each of them now fights a war within themselves, a war which makes all others Azeroth has known pale in comparison. Such an uncertain ally is more a liability than asset.

"This is my decision, as the leader of the Kaldorei, and as the High Priestess of Elune. May Mother Moon light their way through this, their darkest night, that they may walk of their own strength into a better future."

[Etarpylon]

If its a matter of rewording it, I might suggest...

"The Alliance may welcome the Quel'dorei once more, but we have not forgotten the War of the Ancients, nor all the sorrows that followed in the wake of the Sundering.

"My people have troubles enough to contend with, without a refugee populace spreading through our lands. The lamentable state of the Quel'dorei is well known to us, and while it is within our power to ease their burdens, it is our duty to ensure our sacred groves are not defiled. Will these refugees find the balance their ancestors spurned? Or will the sins of the past repeat once more?

"Mother Moon has not revealed to me the path the Quel'dorei will take. Perhaps the soul of their people is so uncertain even she cannot see their fate. I cannot condone their presence within the Alliance at this time. Each of them now fights a war within themselves, a war which makes all others Azeroth has known pale in comparison. Such an uncertain ally is more a liability than asset.

"This is my decision, as the leader of the Kaldorei, and as the High Priestess of Elune. May Mother Moon light their way through this, their darkest night, that they may walk of their own strength into a better future."

Perfect.

This is the most in-character for Tyrande by a longshot.

[Calevarn]

Turtle WoW's High Elves aren't those that were with [...] Jaina (whom helped defend Nordrassil during the Third War).

You've acknowledged she went to help Kael'thas and his blood elves, but you strangely also use this argument which doesn't altogether add up to me.

She went out of her way to help Kael'thas and his people, despite the fact they had personally done nothing for her in the first place either: they weren't on Hyjal.

She seemingly believed that the actions on Hyjal by the high elves were however indicative that their race as a whole was not below her to aid. In fact she went further, saying that she felt indebted to them for their heroics.

She believed even Illidan was not beneath the Goddess' compassion; her first instinct in seeing a famished Broxigar is to heal and feed him; when Dath'remar's Highborne come under threat, her paramount thought is to save them.

Literally the only time she showed aggression was when her homeland was actively being invaded. And even then, by the end she reconsidered, admitted she had misjudged the Horde and the Alliance, and blessed them all in Elune's name.

This is how early Warcraft characterised Tyrande. I'm not sure why an alternative interpretation of her should take precedence on the way established lore repeatedly portrays her as.

"All Highborne and all their descendants have a collective racial guilt they must pay for" is just not something Tyrande has ever expressed, let alone expressing it towards destitute refugees. It is absolutely out of character on principle.

But I believe I've said all that I could on the topic, do feel free to scroll up for any references and sources on the matter.

[Andromath]

Turtle WoW's High Elves aren't those that were with [...] Jaina (whom helped defend Nordrassil during the Third War).

You've acknowledged she went to help Kael'thas and his blood elves, but you strangely also use this argument which doesn't altogether add up to me.

She went out of her way to help Kael'thas and his people, despite the fact they had personally done nothing for her in the first place either: they weren't on Hyjal.

She seemingly believed that the actions on Hyjal by the high elves were however indicative that their race as a whole was not below her to aid. In fact she went further, saying that she felt indebted to them for their heroics.

She believed even Illidan was not beneath the Goddess' compassion; her first instinct in seeing a famished Broxigar is to heal and feed him; when Dath'remar's Highborne come under threat, her paramount thought is to save them.

Literally the only time she showed aggression was when her homeland was actively being invaded. And even then, by the end she reconsidered, admitted she had misjudged the Horde and the Alliance, and blessed them all in Elune's name.

This is how early Warcraft characterised Tyrande. I'm not sure why an alternative interpretation of her should take precedence on the way established lore repeatedly portrays her as.

"All Highborne and all their descendants have a collective racial guilt they must pay for" is just not something Tyrande has ever expressed, let alone expressing it towards destitute refugees. It is absolutely out of character on principle.

But I believe I've said all that I could on the topic, do feel free to scroll up for any references and sources on the matter.

I don't disagree with you, at all, about anything you've said.

However, I think we're not taking into consideration the bigger picture of all these different actions, either. Tyrande may be the High Priestess of Elune, but she's also the Leader of the Kaldorei people. Her people's safety and well-being at her key priorities. Accepting help from the Horde and Alliance were in her people's interests, once she was convinced they were not invaders defiling her forest. In the end, we saw how the Horde didn't exactly live up to that changed opinion, either, which no doubt left her increasingly wary as of the time of World of Warcraft.

Helping Kael'thas, Broxigar, etc... were all actions she took that did not put her people in any danger, did not leave them beholden to another power. Helping Kael'thas and his Blood Elves did not enter the Kaldorei into a formal Alliance wherein the Night Elves would've been required to render further aid and assistance. Politically speaking, it was a very wise course of action for Tyrande. She lost very little, but stood to gain quite a bit by rendering assistance. In the process, her people were not put in any danger.

Joining the Alliance must have been one of the most difficult decisions Tyrande faced since the Sundering itself, knowing full well what it would mean for her people: an end to isolation, a need to change from a xenophobic culture. It also meant she would find herself and her people at the mercy of the Alliance in ways that may not have been particularly pleasant to consider. Case in point: welcoming the High Elves back into the Alliance. Now, Tyrande and the Kaldorei are required by the terms of the Alliance to render aid and assistance.

Therein lies the difference, I think, and also where her reluctance should be rooted if that is indeed absolutely necessary to Turtle WoW's narrative. Tyrande's duty is to her people first and foremost, and while joining the Alliance was in her people's best interests, being selective about who else joins would likewise be something she would have to measure with care.

The current live version of her dialogue is indeed very hostile, and moreso than is necessary in a wise, compassionate, and strong ruler. I've already suggested how I'd change it to better reflect the political gravity of the situation, as well as the struggle Tyrande feels between being the Leader of the Kaldorei, and the High Priestess of Elune. That said, I don't know the story the Turtle WoW Devs want to tell here. I can only imagine the insistence that this hostility is necessary is an indication that they have something planned.

Sharing our thoughts and feelings will, I hope, provide feedback enough for them to know they're on the right track, or if they need to tweak the narrative.

Then again for all we know, Tyrande is a Dreadlord and its just them trying to keep the Alliance from getting stronger or something.

[Calevarn]

Helping Kael'thas, Broxigar, etc... were all actions she took that did not put her people in any danger.

While true for most of these, accepting Dath'remar and his Highborne into the Kaldorei Resistance certainly had many risks, some of which unfortunately came true, and could even be a parallel to the current conundrum with the high elves. But it's something she did, and gladly so, without holding any grudges towards their descendants.

Politically speaking, it was a very wise course of action for Tyrande. She lost very little, but stood to gain quite a bit by rendering assistance. In the process, her people were not put in any danger.

On a wider sense, no, but Kaldorei warriors still put themselves in the cross-airs to help Kael'thas and his people. She herself was willing to give her life for the blood elves (she nearly actually did).

This is crucial, I think, and very important to remember; so that this exchange isn't confused as a colder, purely political manoeuvre.

a need to change from a xenophobic culture

One of the lore details Blizzard sporadically states and that most people take at face-value, but which is so contradictory. A major theme of the War of the Ancients is about the night elves abandoning their old prejudices and accepting the aid of the other races of Azeroth to unite against the Burning Legion.

The night elves opened one of their most sacred forests, Moonglade, to the tauren, and taught them perhaps one of their most cherished teachings: the druidism of Cenarius, allowing a possibly vital asset to slip into the hands of the adventurers of the Horde, simply because they are that open to other races. How can one people be highly xenophobic while dedicating a considerable part of their own territory to become a neutral ground for the multiracial exchange of knowledge and spirituality? Is there even any other race in Warcraft that does that?

They also shared the forests in harmony with the wildkins and the furbolgs, and even the trolls in at least one occasion.

Nope, random "racist elf" trope has to be the way. The one time the night elves react violently to fel-tainted invaders ravaging their forests, somehow is the only relevant precedent that needs to be remembered. Which anyway is resolved at the end of the campaign when the night elves befriend both factions, and that needs to be forgotten as well.

It's such a poor reading and understanding of night elf history. Accepting other races defined their greatest struggle, it is the reason they are still alive, it is what their society was built by.

Sorry for the tangent, had to do it to them.

Now, Tyrande and the Kaldorei are required by the terms of the Alliance to render aid and assistance.

The way the Alliance functions is only briefly touched upon, but going by the previous Alliance, I would reasonably assume that her commitment to helping high elves or any other endeavour of the Alliance is entirely dependent upon herself (much how like Quel'Thalas and Gilneas withheld support in certain situations).

Meaning she can contribute as little or as much as she wants, and still also hold total jurisdiction in her own lands, but by vetoing the entrance of the high elven refugees wholesale the only thing she's ensuring is that the Alliance is somewhat weakened, and that the support the high elves receive is hindered, leaving them vulnerable to a far worse fate.

It's excessively nasty of her.

And predicated on racial antics of inherited guilt? Even worse.

Predicated on the use of the arcane? Most races in the Alliance already use it, and some of them even have warlocks.

Basically it...doesn't hold up.

Then again for all we know, Tyrande is a Dreadlord and its just them trying to keep the Alliance from getting stronger or something.

Lol, it's Fandral Staghelm in a disguise

[Andromath]

While true for most of these, accepting Dath'remar and his Highborne into the Kaldorei Resistance certainly had many risks, some of which unfortunately came true, and could even be a parallel to the current conundrum with the high elves. But it's something she did, and gladly so, without holding any grudges towards their descendants.

The Tyrande of the War of the Ancients was not the leader of the Kaldorei people, however. She wasn't even the leader of the resistance, I believe. Wasn't Jarod Shadowsong it's leader?

At the end of the day, Tyrande does remember the War of the Ancients, and she did feel betrayed by those whom sided with Azshara as we saw in Legion with Suramar and the Nightborne. While this antipathy should not extend towards the High Elves, it's been suggested that the Kaldorei society does. Tyrande herself may be open to building new bridges and diplomatic relations, but as a leader she cannot ignore the will of her people either.

On a wider sense, no, but Kaldorei warriors still put themselves in the cross-airs to help Kael'thas and his people. She herself was willing to give her life for the blood elves (she nearly actually did).

This is crucial, I think, and very important to remember; so that this exchange isn't confused as a colder, purely political manoeuvre.

I agree that the exchange was not a cold, tactical, political maneuver, but I do believe politics influenced her decision. Yes, Tyrande was putting her warriors in the line of fire to help the Blood Elves. Alternatively, without Sin'dorei knowledge of the terrain and local threats, how much more danger would her warriors have been in? I can't exactly count the grain of sands balancing that scale, but in my opinion, helping the Blood Elves means less danger for her warriors in the long-run.

One of the lore details Blizzard sporadically states but which is so contradictory. A major theme of the War of the Ancients is about the night elves abandoning their old prejudices and accepting the aid of the other races of Azeroth to unite against the Burning Legion.

The night elves opened one of their most sacred forests, Moonglade, to the tauren, and taught them perhaps one of their most cherished teachings: the druidism of Cenarius, allowing a possibly vital asset to slip into the hands of the adventurers of the Horde, simply because they are that open to other races. How can one people be highly xenophobic while dedicating a considerable part of their own territory to become a neutral ground for the multiracial exchange of knowledge and spirituality? Is there even any other race in Warcraft that does that?

They also shared the forests in harmony with the wildkins and the furbolgs, and even the trolls in at least one occasion.

Nope, random "racist elf" trope has to be the way. The one time the night elves react violently to fel-tainted invaders ravaging their forests, somehow is the only relevant precedent that needs to be remembered. Which anyway is resolved at the end of the campaign when the night elves befriend both factions, and that needs to be forgotten as well.

It's such a poor reading and understanding of night elf history. Accepting other races defined their greatest struggle, it is the reason they are still alive, it is what their society was built by.

Sorry for the tangent, had to do it to them.

The tangent is appreciated.

I think it's something of a cardinal sin of Blizzard's own writers, but they treat races and nations as monoliths all too often. The idea of dissent doesn't exist until we see an example of it. For example, we're told the Kaldorei are isolationist and xenophobic, and that's why even Tauren didn't dare to set hoof into their sacred forests. Then one brief war later, Tauren are being welcomed into Moonglade itself.

We're led to conclude that Kaldorei Druids aren't as xenophobic and isolationist as the rest of the Kaldorei society is, and in a way that has some logic behind it considering how they spent most of the past 10,000 years sleeping in the Emerald Dream. At the same time though, looking at this through a lens of deeper story-telling, it's really hard to imagine most Kaldorei feel so negatively about other races either. Your average Night Elf likely just wants to live their immortal life in peace with their friends and family, and the idea of other races probably doesn't even phase them all that much.

There really isn't enough depth to the races and nations within Warcraft to do them justice. Even the cultures feel shallow and undefined. It's a shame because there is so much to work with that some truly amazing stories could be told.

Speaking for myself, I always thought Cataclysm failed in crafting a story for the Highborne returning to Kaldorei society, especially given the narrative that expansion gave us with the Night Elves. Leyara was living proof that there was a sentiment among the Kaldorei of resentment towards the Druids for ignoring the plight of their people to instead focus on the imminent threat to nature. Wouldn't it have been something truly remarkable to see the Highborne rising to the occasion at that time, defending Kaldorei settlements, helping refugees flee to safe havens via portal, etc... to see the Druids look back home with concern at this shift in their culture, while the Highborne, taken aback by this newfound and unanticipated respect and warm-regard, felt uncertain how to react in a way that did not threaten the place of the Druids, but did not draw ire from the people whom were just now starting to see them as properly a part of their culture?


In a way, I'm almost curious as to how Turtle WoW will treat Quel'dorei and Kaldorei relations going forward. Might we see High Elves welcomed in Moonglade to begin learning the ways of Druidism? Might Kaldorei mages once more walk among their people, trained by the High Elves? It seems like it'd be a significant leap, but it's an interesting story that could be told.

The way the Alliance functions is only briefly touched upon, but going by the previous Alliance, I would reasonably assume that her commitment to helping high elves or any other endeavour of the Alliance is entirely dependent upon herself (much how like Quel'Thalas and Gilneas withheld support in certain situations).

Meaning she can contribute as little or as much as she wants, and still also hold total jurisdiction in her own lands, but by vetoing the entrance of the high elven refugees wholesale the only thing she's ensuring is that the Alliance is somewhat weakened, and that the support the high elves receive is hindered, leaving them vulnerable to a far worse fate.

It's excessively nasty of her.

And predicated on racial antics of inherited guilt? Even worse.

Predicated on the use of the arcane? Most races in the Alliance already use it, and some of them even have warlocks.

Basically it...doesn't hold up.

Previously, members of the Alliance during the Second War were required to send support to safeguard the well-being of the Alliance as a whole. Even Quel'Thalas could not escape this. Ultimately Anasterian pledged a token force in support of the Alliance, until Quel'Thalas itself was attacked. In that regard, I think Tyrande would be expected to likewise have the Kaldorei provide the High Elves with token support, although in lieu of soldiers, that might come in the form of supplies such as lumber, food, and water.

Lol, it's Fandral Staghelm in a disguise

He looks better in the kilt. Granted all Kaldorei men look better half-naked. Lucky studs.

[Calevarn]

The Tyrande of the War of the Ancients was not the leader of the Kaldorei people, however. She wasn't even the leader of the resistance, I believe. Wasn't Jarod Shadowsong it's leader?

She was one of the leaders, as High Priestess of Elune, and she was the one who personally brought Dath'remar's Highborne into it.

While this antipathy should not extend towards the High Elves, it's been suggested that the Kaldorei society does. Tyrande herself may be open to building new bridges and diplomatic relations, but as a leader she cannot ignore the will of her people either.

You are correct in this. In fact, it goes further than that. We are told that the night elves generally hold distaste for the arcane and all its practictioners, beyond just the high elves.

There might be a story to be told here, on these divisions of beliefs and tolerance within night elven culture and the deep ideological differences with the Alliance as a whole. But those might be better suited to another chapter, or another character, rather than Tyrande and the Silvermoon remnants.

Tyrande, perhaps the one person who has repeatedly shown not to hold these grudges.

There really isn't enough depth to the races and nations within Warcraft to do them justice.

Too true!

Previously, members of the Alliance during the Second War were required to send support

"Expected" I believe is the better word.

Though still, very little info on that regard, so I can't really say.

He looks better in the kilt. Granted all Kaldorei men look better half-naked. Lucky studs.

[Galendor]

If its a matter of rewording it, I might suggest...

"The Alliance may welcome the Quel'dorei once more, but we have not forgotten the War of the Ancients, nor all the sorrows that followed in the wake of the Sundering.

"My people have troubles enough to contend with, without a refugee populace spreading through our lands. The lamentable state of the Quel'dorei is well known to us, and while it is within our power to ease their burdens, it is our duty to ensure our sacred groves are not defiled. Will these refugees find the balance their ancestors spurned? Or will the sins of the past repeat once more?

"Mother Moon has not revealed to me the path the Quel'dorei will take. Perhaps the soul of their people is so uncertain even she cannot see their fate. I cannot condone their presence within the Alliance at this time. Each of them now fights a war within themselves, a war which makes all others Azeroth has known pale in comparison. Such an uncertain ally is more a liability than asset.

"This is my decision, as the leader of the Kaldorei, and as the High Priestess of Elune. May Mother Moon light their way through this, their darkest night, that they may walk of their own strength into a better future."

Perfect.

This is the most in-character for Tyrande by a longshot.

I concur.

[Calevarn]

Another point to note is that the high elves are the descendants of a sect of Highborne who dissented with Azshara's choices, and as far as we know, were not complicit in them.

They opposed the Highborne who became satyrs and naga, unlike, say, Eldre'thalas that 'stood on the fence', they fought and died side by side with the night elves.

It would still be very weird for Tyrande to lay blame for the War of the Ancients and the Sundering on the descendants of people who tried to stop it: it's not even a guilt they can inherit.

Some night elves might think that every noble and their ilk is cut of the same cloth, sure, though it's also bizarre considering two out of the three Supreme Commanders of the Kaldorei resistance were themselves noble aristocrats of the upper class. Ravencrest himself was allegedly even related to Azshara, and the night elves still venerate him as a great hero.

Regardless, Tyrande should know better given she was the one who brought Dath'remar's Highborne into the Kaldorei Resistance.

[Andromath]

Another point to note is that the high elves are the descendants of a sect of Highborne who dissented with Azshara's choices, and as far as we know, were not complicit in them.

They opposed the Highborne who became satyrs and naga, unlike, say, Eldre'thalas that 'stood on the fence', they fought and died side by side with the night elves.

It would still be very weird for Tyrande to lay blame for the War of the Ancients and the Sundering on the descendants of people who tried to stop it: it's not even a guilt they can inherit.

Some night elves might think that every noble and their ilk is cut of the same cloth, sure, though it's also bizarre considering two out of the three Supreme Commanders of the Kaldorei resistance were themselves noble aristocrats of the upper class. Ravencrest himself was allegedly even related to Azshara, and the night elves still venerate him as a great hero.

Regardless, Tyrande should know better given she was the one who brought Dath'remar's Highborne into the Kaldorei Resistance.

There might be some Quel'dorei whom came from the Kaldorei, depending on Turtle WoW's lore regarding lifespans. I know it wasn't exactly popular in Retail WoW when we learned there were Blood Elves whom had been Highborne during the time of the Sundering, for example. The real issue is dealing with elven lifespans.

A lot of people point to Anasterian being described as elderly in appearance 3,000 years after the Troll Wars, but the Warcraft Encyclopedia, written as of the time of Vanilla WoW, mentioned that Alleria Windrunner took part in the Troll Wars, meaning she was over 3,000 years old when she gave birth to Arator. So, High Elven lifespans are kind of all over the place.



Anyways, while the War of the Ancients cannot be placed on Quel'Thalas in terms of blame, the fact of the matter is that they continued the culture which had produced Azshara. It'd be as if after the American Civil War, the South went right back to slavery a decade later.

That said, Blizzard themselves have been all over the place as far as Thalassian and Kaldorei relations go. We're told there's mistrust and dislike, and yet then they feel the need to add in snippets such as the Kaldorei supporting Quel'Thalas during the Troll Wars. Same thing with humans, actually. Apparently the Highborne never would've survived the journey from Tirisfal to modern-day Quel'Thalas if the humans hadn't helped them survive the Alterac Pass during winter.



I think where Night Elves and High Elves are concerned, we really need a strong, firm answer on relations, and I do think recent events in the timeline need to be considered, even if we're ignoring Blizzard's lore past BC/Cata.

[Calevarn]

while the War of the Ancients cannot be placed on Quel'Thalas in terms of blame, the fact of the matter is that they continued the culture which had produced Azshara.

This is true, even if it was a tamer form of the Kaldorei Empire (who also had slavery). The main problem remains the use of arcane, really, which is a broader issue for many races in the eyes of the night elves.

But as we can see with the way the night elves interact with all the other races, it's not like Sentinels go around flaying wizards alive or anything. It is an ideological difference, but not really a violent one.

I think where Night Elves and High Elves are concerned, we really need a strong, firm answer on relations, and I do think recent events in the timeline need to be considered

All recent events and sources show that the night elves and their Thalassian cousins are quite warm towards each other. When Tyrande and Kael'thas meet in Lordaeron, there is no sense of suspicion, hostility or distrust.

Malfurion and even Maiev Shadowsong don't seem too bothered about fighting alongside Kael and his mages. Maiev is quite happy to enlist his aid, and Kael'thas shows a great deal of reverence towards Malfurion, addressing him as "great druid" and "Lord Stormrage", and Tyrande as "my lady", saying "it would be an honor" to battle by her side.

Really, the only time these two groups came at odds was during the Exile of the High Elves many millennia ago, and even then it was a bloodless affair. Despite already being part of WC3 lore, it's not brought up as an issue at any point.

There is no animosity in Warcraft III or any lore following it up to the release of WoW.

So where exactly is this portrayal of hostility actually coming from?

It's the RPG. The goddamn RPG, which opens the High Elf - Night Elf relations page with this bonkers statement:

"The years of conflict between the night elves and the high elves number so many that they make the Alliance and Horde conflict look like children arguing over a toy." (World of Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game, page 12)

If you're like me, and you're scratching your head trying to think of when this massive Kaldorei - Quel'dorei war happened, then don't worry, because it never did. The RPG just retcons it in, states that the high elves are actually trying to steal Ashenvale and all its moonwells for themselves, and makes these two races out to be arch-nemeses because of the Sundering, the War of the Ancients and all the other rhetoric you can think of by now having long since permeated the community to the point it's bluntly accepted as fact at face-value and constantly repeated any time the discussion comes up.

For the sake of coherence, and preserving the original layout of the story, I'd wholeheartedly ignore the RPG on this matter.

[Andromath]

Maybe it would be worth revisiting the current crop of quests in Turtle WoW for revisions, then?

Something I feel the current set-up doesn't do well, (although I freely admit to not having yet gotten to level 60 and experienced all the custom quests) is set up the High Elves as a culture or entity of their own.The quests in Loch Modan brush over a refugee crisis, but feel like they ignore a significant hurdle the High Elves are still faced with: their addiction to magic. Not only that, but we have NPCs referencing various pillars of the Thalassian nation such as the Magistry, Farstriders, etc... without really seeing anyone who feels like a representative of any of this.

The High Elves do have a custom settlement, which is nice, but again it really feels like there is no sense of leadership, of community, etc... There isn't even that much representation from the various High Elven groups.

Right now if you ask for the name of a playable race's leader, can you give one for the High Elves of Turtle WoW? I couldn't. Feels like something of a major oversight from a lore perspective.

I guess the real question is how worthwhile it would be to change everything that's been implemented, whether or not that would be a good return on investment. I have no idea how difficult or resource intensive it is to overhaul quest text, add quests, or adjust NPC dialogue (or even just give them some to begin with). I wouldn't even be able to say with any certainty whether or not Turtle WoW would benefit from a completely custom Lore NPC for a High Elf leader, or if they should bring in someone like Vereesa or Alleria Windrunner somehow.

I would think once the High Elves themselves are more firmly cemented in the server's canon, that it would be simpler to open up more immersive relationships with other races. For example, the Quel'Danil Lodge in the Hinterlands has decided to go full cold turkey where magic is concerned. The High Elves there have entirely given it up. If ever there was a group of High Elves that'd draw Kaldorei sympathy and approval, I imagine they'd be it. It's conveniently located right next to Seradane, meaning Kaldorei Druids have a quick and easy location from which to meet with them and share resources and knowledge. Who knows but that High Elven Druids might even become a thing from such an interaction.

There is a lot to work with, and maybe more can be added in the future, but I'd be on-board for some revisions to existing content where the High Elves are concerned, not just to better flesh out their relationships with Alliance races, but themselves as a race as well.