Holy strike and paladin librams

[Durnbrok]

While i do like Holy strike the way it is,its obvious it's really powerful spell especially in bgs where i can kill people within
the 6 seconds of my stun.Disabling the spell would be an easy way to go but it would ruin the fun for us pallies,looking at
the talent an eye for an eye where it limits it's damage output depending on the paladins hp,i thought maybe a restrictions of that sort would limit a bit the imbalanced numbers of holy strike.

Paladin librams(and other classes that use totems and what not) dont seem to be anywhere near as useful as the ranged weapons a warrior or rogue might get.
Take for example Libram of truth(+55 armor on devotion aura) and compare its effects to something like Blackcrow(+1 hit 3 agility)
If we exclude holy strike from the libram topic i do belive a warrior a rogue or a hunter would have a slight advantage in stats compared to a class like a shammy or a paladin.Adding a new variaty of librams or buffing the alreayd existant ones would be certainly be apreciated.

Here are my Libram ideas.
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Libram of Enlightment
Equip:Increases the duration of blessings by 10%
Requires lvl 58
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Libram of Avengement
Requires Level 60
Equip: Inflicts 60 to 66 additional Holy damage on the target of a Paladin's Judgement.
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Libram of Fury
Requires Level 50
Equip:Increases Threat generated from all Spells and Attacks by 2%
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Libram of Concentration
Requires Level 49
Equip:Decreases your mana cost to Holy spells by 9
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Libram of Eternal Justice
Requires Level 60
Equip:Chance to Regain 100 Mana when you cast a judgement
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Libram of Undead Tracking
Requires Level 20
Equip:Shows the location of all nearby undead.

This ability is obtained at roughly lvl 25 from the Tome of Valor quest,from what i know no one ever uses that ability no matter the situation,so what if it was turned as a libram? Being able to see nearby e.g ore and undead would be sorta cool.
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Libram of Resolve
Requires Level 50
Equip:Increases Spirit to nearby party members by 15.
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[Withinamnesia]

*Rant Start*

Given the state of twow where we have no 40 man raiding guild (not one!) and have to nerf / scale down the raids in order to clear MC we are not fully in a fully mature state as a server to nerf a broken PvE class; ret Paladin.

Paladins suck at dps the further they go on in raid tiers. Warriors get better for example and hunters stagnate. Paladins are a joke in Naxx, trust me I've raided naxx for 18 months and seen all of the vanilla PvE.

Paladins need a melee ability really bad. Holy strike without talent spec to make it instant might not even be enough come full proper naxx. The ret dps is about half that of a warrior or rogue or mage in T3; it is a bad meme. When you have 300 people raiding on a server in one weekend you can see who gets invited to raids and who has to play with the stoners in trash ZG runs and PUGs XD.

Base Ret paladins were a huge joke, they brought the whole raid down and were pretty much a wasted dps slot the moment they walked through the naxx portal. They can't even spam nightfall to keep the debuff up (no instant melee ability)! A MELEE HUNTER which I got to t3 was more useful than a ret paladin who can res!

On Twow we have a tiny player base compared to other servers but we have a lot of room to grow. Ret paladins are broken and need a melee instant ability. Paladins can be annoying in PvP but they are not super op.

I have seen really good pvp on Kronos an actual high pop mature PvP vanilla server and we have no killers on here. Lots of win traders who have no key binds and all their gear is not earned it is cheated.

I don't overly like wow PvP myself I like PvE the most myself but I have played with PvP players for years now and ret paladins are not op in PvP; it might be here where PvP was broken with cross faction heals (like wtf? XD). A paladin in a group with proper players and classes is a tough match up though because they heal and are a tough nut to crack.

Let's face it Twow has a very small player pool and most players on here are complete noobs (which is not a bad thing) compared to actual hardcore players who play on bigger servers and chase records XD. We have not even killed nef yet lol (we suck lol XD). Most classes have not even hit half of their stride yet with the crap meme gear we have on offer since we don't have a proper raid scene yet. With more players we can get a proper fun raid scene together and actually pick who we raid (crucial for filtering good raiders from stoners and black listed players) with and make lots of friends XD.

My point is a lot of players today on Twow have never seen naxx, hell most players on twow don't even know how to raid XD. To make class nerfs on a broken class now so early in a server's progression will warp the balance for late in the server when all of the other classes will catch up. A lot of people are doing pvp on twow because they can't properly raid as well to progress. We are barely able to get naxx trash drops let alone clear bwl lol XD.

*Rant Over*







From a technical stand point for new spells you need a custom patch as well. I think some librams should be used a 'wand' with a ranged pull ability (make the torch of eternal flame upgraded into a libram for paladins would be a great quest to get the first paladin Libram). I like the idea of a '3rd trinket slot' for a paladin though in the form of a libram; lots of 'use' librams and the choice to swap out like trinkets to suit the play-style. Need a pull ability with a 40 yard range on a 10 second timer? Sure here is the level 30 Libram of Eternal Flame! Need some extra +healing? Sure here is a libram! Need an extra taunt ability with a 10 second cool down? Sure here is a Libram of Vexation!

[Durnbrok]

All the spells i mentioned on my libram ideas do exist in game,either as an equip bonus(from various paladin sets) or enchants(the threat increase).The bonuses i chose come from the idea nobody is going to use the sets that offer those bonuses(some of those sets are not even good),the threat enchant for the libram seems nice(better handling threat as a prot pally)

The nerf im suggesting,which is mostly focused for pvp, doesnt ruin holy strike in such a way it would be considered useless,after all pallies tend to have roughly 4-5k hp with the early raid gear(it pretty much doesnt do a difference on holy strike on usual dps gear).But if someone was to just stack gear with alot of attack power(only attack power and nothing else either fro mrandom greens or blues with a random ''of power'' stat) enough to make holy strike crit for even crazier numbers(i cant confirm this since i dont have gear with THAT much attack power to test them but that's how i assume it would go since holy strike is affected by a whooping 100% of the pallies' main hand damage(both weapon and stats))it would make pvp too unfair imo,as i said if i can kill people in the duration of my stun in pvp,then how would it go as a full glass cannon other issues may occur like lack of hp/armor and what not but still paladins have a big toolkit enough to keep them alive for a good period of time.Repentance 1 min,bubble 5 mins,BoP 3 mins,stun(which combined with talents and gear it can have a 35 sec cd) and then consider all the consumes pots,tidal,grenades,helm,boots to run in one of the regen huts,whipper roots etc).
About nax and the dps there i(which i havent been to yet) dont know much but once we progress i'll find out.

[Chlothar]

Withinamnesia is right about the paladin dps scaling, it`s the same i`ve seen in many years of wow. I mean my ret is pretty strong right now. But theres hardly a big upgrade for me until t2.5 set. That`s why i will probably go holy or tank in PvE content from BWL on. I like the idea of having a libram that compensates the ranged weapon slot. But when i look over your recommandations i don`t see anything useful so far. 15 spirit is completely useless in raid invironment....if you`re not a priest. -9mana cost on holy spells. -9 Mana isnt a big thing, especially when coming to heals you rely on spellcrits and get free heals anyway. Chance to get mana when cast a judgement, 100 mana isnt really much and a chance on something you do every 8-10secs is not worth equipping it tbh. Duration of Buffs 10% = 1.5 minutes longer, also not very much i get from these, especially considering that you most of the time renew the buffs before they actually run out. Threat generated +x% sounds not bad on the first look but. With Libram of Fervor https://classicdb.ch/?item=23203 you pretty much get tat, the same goes for the additional holy dmg.

But what i really like about the idea is that you have to wait to get a libram until 50+. so you literally get a disadvantage while leveling because that item slot is empty....same goes for druids and shamans. I don`t think we really need something new there but it would be interesting to see how it affects gameplay. But rather than a libram with minor improvements...i wouldnt use over libram of fervor anyway, it would be cool to see something else like maybe a paladin wand/scepter that does holy dmg for pulling in dungeons for example and has some spellpower scaling. Not to make the paladin became a holy ranger, but allow him to do something in range.

[Durnbrok]

I didn't want to put something that might considered strong,i thought the set bonuses some paladin sets offer like the eternal battlesuit(20% for mana regain) or the buffs duration increases,would fit more in a libram other than a final set bonus.Plus librams are items that enhance specific spells another reason i chose what i chose.
When someone looks at a book his mind doesnt go to a gun or a wand that deals ranged dmg,it sounds a bit too much of a game changer aspect,considering prot pallies wont have to farm the dynamites/Elune candles or anything else that can range pull(but that's just my opinion).
The 15 spirit aura sounded like a good idea,a paladin after all is a class with many auras and blessings and it felt something it would fit the "vibe" of the class.
The 9 mana reduction to holy spells would've been a nice first libram to get at low lvl after all i didnt put the same level requirement to all librams(I would personally use this instead of Libram of Truth or Libram of Hope.
Lastly the 2% threat increase would also work on melee hits and other chance on hit procs,i think.
Fervor is a low world drop,extremely to find in the first place.

[Chlothar]

The thing about paladins is that the better you adapt your spells/talents to situations the better you become in playing a paladin. For example, when you feel a lack of mana regeneration, you put on either blessing of wisdom or use seal of wisdom...or even both. A libram that granted you mana reduction will make this adaption less important. There is pretty much talk about blizzard had no good idea of balancing classes but tbh. the more i think about changing classes, the more i feel how balanced they actually are in their unique playstyle. Maybe they arent well balanced when it comes to pvp or late game content because of the sometimes weird itemization. But if youa sk me, i would step away from changes like this.

[Durnbrok]

But when i look over your recommandations i don`t see anything useful so far. 15 spirit is completely useless in raid invironment....if you`re not a priest. -9mana cost on holy spells. -9 Mana isnt a big thing, especially when coming to heals you rely on spellcrits and get free heals anyway. Chance to get mana when cast a judgement, 100 mana isnt really much and a chance on something you do every 8-10secs is not worth equipping it tbh. Duration of Buffs 10% = 1.5 minutes longer, also not very much i get from these, especially considering that you most of the time renew the buffs before they actually run out. Threat generated +x% sounds not bad on the first look but. With Libram of Fervor https://classicdb.ch/?item=23203 you pretty much get tat, the same goes for the additional holy dmg.

As you said though they arent AS useful/reliable,not really game changers to remove the adaptiation to each situation.
15 is decent for priests as you said(its an aura) pretty much offering an extra tool in raids for priests,the -9 mana cost isnt much, but you save 36 mana overall for using consecration,seal,judgement and holy strike,again doesnt remove the uniqueness of paladins,however that 36 saved mana(added with the mana regen/or remaining mana/or the other mana saved while going through the rotation more times) might be enough to get an extra spell off save a tank or be just enough to DI a healer.
Sure they are not as great when compared to Libram of Divinity or of Fervor,
but i dont think they remove the utility a paladin offers,while offering something unique in return.

[Withinamnesia]

Okay let us not nerf the paladin's dismal dps and try to grow the server so we can get some great paladin players (which we are lacking XD)

I have seen some horrors on this server with our player skill in some areas (no key binds, no idea of a rotation, no idea of ability synergy, no idea of rolls and expectations of the class in groups, NO IDEA HOW ITEM STATS WORK FOR THEIR CLASS AT 60! *weeze* Just to name a few XD).

Being new to wow is a great thing although when lots of people are noobs (If not the majority of the players) we cannot be going up and down with the nerfs and buffs for if we actually get seasoned bastards playing the classes properly and getting some right killers on here, pvp will look a lot different lol. We are not a mature server we have not killed nef yet since 2018 lol.

I am not head-over-heels about wow pvp but I know how amazingly skilled some players are for I raided with them; a lot. We had to clear our world buff spots, zg isle, light's hope etc. People who can take a non-buffed alt with trash zg gear and wreck 3-4 tier 3 and tier 2 players on another screen while they are making groups on their main. We have no monster pvp on this server lol XD.

We are not even 1/5 the way into the end content of vanilla. Let us not nerf a broken class (ret paladin) for a pvp scene that is not even able to pop bgs even once a day XD.

Although I would suggest proper low-pop 10-man gearing for raid gear so people don't have to win trade when the devs are offline to get hit gear (warrior hit shoulders lol) XD. viewtopic.php?f=14&t=922