Crusader Strike and Holy Strike

[Mrkrissatan]

It would be nice to see these two beta Paladin spells readded to the game and it would give retribution something more to do than auto attack even if it does lead to them going oom more often

https://classicdb.ch/?spell=2537

https://classicdb.ch/?spell=679

[Sinrek]

That's basically an equivalent for shaman's 31 points Enhancement Stormstrike talent. I would rework the last Retribution talent (currently) Repentance instead or swapped it with this Crusader's Strike with spell damage scaling component.

[Mrkrissatan]

Sounds good to me

[Sinrek]

Now it's a matter of majority turtles' opinion. Ask paladins around, direct them to this topic and let them sound their thoughts about the topic.

[Pepper]

I don't have to much to say about this but as a Paladin player it would be nice to see either option implemented.

[Ulfricfan23]

As someone who leveled a pala to 60 here,I would like if those spells from the beta were brought back.The paladin leveling was super boring because all you did was turn on the seal,do judgement,cast a seal again and then auto-attack until the mob dies.Having more combat spells can make it less boring.And who knows,maybe with those spells back,Ret Palas can be a decent DPS at endgame.

-Matt

[Chlothar]

Thumps up* from me!! Maybe there is a way we could test that before it goes life - especially regarding scaling with SPgear! There will be some issues still. Like Crusader strike causing a debuff that replaces judgement of the crusader for example.

Theres a vid on youtube showcasing the beta paladin system a bit:
- The guy in the vid says crusader strike has no cooldown. I once tested that spell on my own server where it had a cooldown.

I would like to have a non autoswing dps ability if it`s not causing too many issues.

Greetings Chlothar

[Sinrek]

These would require patch I believe and we'd need to test these first. I think it's too many changes though, so better fix one at a time.

[Thornbuild]

First and foremost:
I've played the Paladin class back in the time of retail vanilla and (almost) everybody of the pally community longed for a Crusader/Holy Strike those days - me too, of course.

But I have to admit that I am not that convinced about it anymore. To add such a controllable damage ability would recuire a total overhaul of the whole Seal and Judge system. Also, it would afflict other builds (e.g. Tankadins) as well. The idea of creating it as a 31 pt talent in the Retri tree might be the best solution, if it still goes well with the Seals/Judges without beeing overpowered.

I don't wanna say "lol, no way!" but I would recommend to test it very deeply and carefully. To make the Ret.-Paladin to a overall better version of a Off-Warrior may not be the way to go. To change some elements for increasing the fun to play without damaging the class balance (lol) system is a minefield.

[Mrkrissatan]

I don't think anyone is suggesting we put these abilities in without testing, I think people are just excited at the idea of doing more than auto attack

[Thornbuild]

IMO playing a Paladin in (group)play is more that just auto attacking. You are actually using a lot of global cooldowns for buffing, putting a consecreation, put judgements on mobs (for dmg or support), stunning mobs, switching auras (I cant see all of those pallys still using devo aura while being attacked by some frost bold casting mobs for instance) and do some off-heals. Exactly that what I expect of a protection class (rp whise).

edit: but I can and do - of course - understand that playing a Zelot-like class build has also its favours. I stay tuned what the Turtle staff will decide.

[Chlothar]

I would not touch the talent tree as it is now, because people play classic paladin for reason and probably like the talent trees in their actual design. I would just add those extra skills (Best would be to add just one of these, not both) to the trainer for lets say lvl 40 availability. this way the spells are optional and people can stick to the usual class design. I agree with Thorn in many points, a good paladin uses much more then his auto hit. But still there is room for 1 button-hit attack in the rotation, especially with 15min buffs.

As i stated before, i have tested both attacks on my server, which has almost the same server core. They have no op dps, you still wont reach the same dps as a warrior or rogue. It`s pretty much like having heroic strike on a warrior....you do it when you have extra rage left.....otherwise you won`t.

I personally vote for crusader strike. =)

[Chlothar]

Maybe...just maybe...if the staff agrees in implementing such skills. They could be the reward for a paladin class quest.

Lets say you get that quest at lvl 60`at the stormwind chapel. Maybe from that Scarlet crusade guy downstairs.
>>Repelling Darkness<< - Hunt down the deathknights Baron Rivendare and Deathknight Darkreaver and an elite demon in blasted lands or Immol`thar in DM west.
Also it could be an extension of that scarlet crusade quest line...it would be only available for humans then.

[Thornbuild]

(...)it would be only available for humans (...)

My dwarf Paladin would be pretty jealous

[Chlothar]

Also 1 talent could be given to humans the other one to dwarven =) That would give them ...eventually...a different play style. I have so many ideas popping up in my mind but that would require so much work for the server staff^^

[Mrkrissatan]

Also 1 talent could be given to humans the other one to dwarven =) That would give them ...eventually...a different play style. I have so many ideas popping up in my mind but that would require so much work for the server staff^^

I love this idea but instead of a talent how about a quest like the Tauren planesrunning

Holy Strike for Dwarves
Crusader Strike for Humans

The quest's should involve killing undead or demons imho

[Thornbuild]

As I am planning to play my dwarf Paladin as dungeon tank, an additional (controllable) damage skill like Holy Strike sounds pretty neat for generating threat... Chlothar, and you've tested both abilities together with SoC/JoC?

[Gregory]

Please add both of them. Even with these two spells they would still be the worst dps but it would improve paladins, esepcially leveling. And with the usual seal - judgement - seal (and healing, buffs etc) route your mana drains pretty quickly, plus with added cooldowns they wouldn't be abusable. Also make sure the Improved Seal of Crusader talent has an effect on Crusader Strike (and maybe Improved Seal of Righteousness on Holy Strike?).

[Chlothar]

@Thornbuild crusader strikes applies a debuff on the target being hit and stack up to 5. That debuff is of the same kind as JoC, that will not work together.
this game has different kinds of crusader strike with different values of stacking +holy dmg to the target. It pretty much depends in which will be given to us. But the 5x stack should cause a+dmg bonus around 150 and deal ~ 100dmg.

My testing happened past year so i am not 100% sure about the values anymore. My server doesnt work atm after i moved to a new computer and havent tried to fix it yet.
But here is some data from the game database:

crusader strike R5 https://classicdb.ch/?spell=10337
crusader strike of a grimtotem mob https://classicdb.ch/?spell=17281
holy strike rank8 https://classicdb.ch/?spell=10333

I would like to have them both tbh =)
@MrKrissatan: I mentioned an idea for the quest involving to kill the 2 deathknights the game knows besides Naxx and a demon from dire maul!!

[Mrkrissatan]

I would prefer to have both spells as well but I like the idea of racial paladin spells

[Seelenschmied]

To have both spells would be dope. But as an endlevel talent it wouldn'd help much with lveveling, as a lvl60 spell too. Lvl 40or lvl 20 learnable spell or quest would be better.

[Mrkrissatan]

A Level 20 quest sounds good to me, everyone else on board with that?

[Sinrek]

I believe it should be on earlier levels since we have quests later on and we'd like players to get familiar with new (old LUL) mechanics and figure the best rotation while they still have some time levelling. Also, as you already know, later level quests would require much more complex implementation due to the number of quest-givers and time we will need to link them all smoothly enough.

[Deadcrow]

Can this be the next sands of time update?

[Torta]

Most likely, Deadcrow. Would like to hear more opinions on this matter first.

[Deadcrow]

Yay! I like the racial quest idea personally

[Chlothar]

Lets say crusader strike could be the reward for the lvl 20-30 quest.Theres a demon zone in Ashenvale "Felfire Hill" that has no quests in vanilla i believe, maybe the Dreadlord there could be part of a paladin quest.
For Holy strike you could go to barrens and kill a lvl 15 rare demon in a cave at dreadmist peak.


In my oppinion holy strike should be the first talent you get because you have more ranks to learn. It has 8 ranks in total that could be. Lvl 14 20 26 32 38 44 50 56.
crusader strike has 5 ranks and could be learned at 20 30 40 50 60.

I wouldnt split the attacks to dwarfen and human because holy strike dmg pretty much builds up on stacking crusader strike on the target before.

[Deadcrow]

Hmm a pair of quest chains maybe?

[Aurrius]

idk i personally would prefer to be able to use both spells as a human paladin and see how they work in a rotation. both of them being in a quest chain i like as well but i dont agree with it being a racial difference as we frankly dont know how they both function as is. im not opposed to them being split racially in the future though we would just need testing and im sure like myself a lot of the playerbase on the server would be more than willing to test that

[Deadcrow]

That sounds fair. Maybe a test event? Since we don't have a test server to help out on

[Tifon]

I don't know what did you gave to all the other races or clases. But give to humans and paladin and extra skill, and both if you are human and paladin, sound too much, isn't it?

[Mrkrissatan]

I don't know if this is any good but I've also found Healing Aura, so potentially one ability for each spec?

https://classicdb.ch/?spell=649

[Chlothar]

Only works out of combat.....hm. Also 2hp/sec is really little reg.

Not sure its worth the work. I mean those other attacks give the paladin something he really lacks in classic.

[Mrkrissatan]

Only works out of combat.....hm.

I'm imagining holy paladin's doing a stance dance between pulls lol

[Moogphazer]

Please for the all that is holy don't seperate the two spells by race, im sorry but that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Besides that though I'm still completely down for these two spells and they are going to be the the things that actually bring me back to the server.