nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Mechsoap
Posts: 29

nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Mechsoap » Fri May 19, 2023 9:44 am

The way Diamond Flask works now is very unimmersive, and centers around gathering +healing gear and using addons/macros to change gear.
It seems unfair in pvp and pve as is for warriors to be the only ones with such an ability that can make them very hard to kill for 1 minute every 5 minutes.
why not instead just give them an ability that would fit better lorewise? and would also be useful for warriors solo levelling to some extend. could be an ability on a cooldown that costs rage and maybe scales off AP.

Geojak
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Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Geojak » Fri May 19, 2023 2:44 pm

Diamond flask shouldn't scale with +heal, like it does ever since patch 2.0.

Now if thsi doesn't change, than atleast it should not scale with 100% of plus healing every 5 seconds for a hole minute.
Make it 10%.
With bis 800 plus healing gear that is still 80 health healed every 5 seconds for a minute.
Now that isn't exactly, godmode what warriors are used to with diamond flask sippy set. But it's fair

Now if that's also not an option
Then disable, diamond flask in blood ring atelast.
Actually just disable it in all battlegroinds and keep it unchanged otherwise for pve

Boras
Posts: 134

Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Boras » Fri May 19, 2023 3:27 pm

Geojak wrote:
Fri May 19, 2023 2:44 pm
Diamond flask shouldn't scale with +heal, like it does ever since patch 2.0.

Now if thsi doesn't change, than atleast it should not scale with 100% of plus healing every 5 seconds for a hole minute.
Make it 10%.
With bis 800 plus healing gear that is still 80 health healed every 5 seconds for a minute.
Now that isn't exactly, godmode what warriors are used to with diamond flask sippy set. But it's fair

Now if that's also not an option
Then disable, diamond flask in blood ring atelast.
Actually just disable it in all battlegroinds and keep it unchanged otherwise for pve
Should be 0% scaling. It's honestly gotten ridiculous seeing warriors rolling for healing gear in raids. If they plan on nerfing classes, warrior should be numero uno on that list.

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Gantulga
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Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Gantulga » Fri May 19, 2023 4:03 pm

They do not need self heal skills and diamond flask should not scale with healing.

Eldirian
Posts: 27

Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Eldirian » Fri May 19, 2023 4:19 pm

No. Never.

Geojak
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Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Geojak » Fri May 19, 2023 4:39 pm

Boras wrote:
Fri May 19, 2023 3:27 pm
Geojak wrote:
Fri May 19, 2023 2:44 pm
Diamond flask shouldn't scale with +heal, like it does ever since patch 2.0.

Now if thsi doesn't change, than atleast it should not scale with 100% of plus healing every 5 seconds for a hole minute.
Make it 10%.
With bis 800 plus healing gear that is still 80 health healed every 5 seconds for a minute.
Now that isn't exactly, godmode what warriors are used to with diamond flask sippy set. But it's fair

Now if that's also not an option
Then disable, diamond flask in blood ring atelast.
Actually just disable it in all battlegroinds and keep it unchanged otherwise for pve
Should be 0% scaling. It's honestly gotten ridiculous seeing warriors rolling for healing gear in raids. If they plan on nerfing classes, warrior should be numero uno on that list.
I AGREE. its super ridicolous. but unless it changes, you would be a fool not to get a life giving gem trinket in bwl.

Drubarrymooer
Posts: 862

Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Drubarrymooer » Fri May 19, 2023 8:35 pm

I mean, they have things that fit within the lore. Healing pots, health stones, etc. Giving them a self heal would basically make them a paladin or druid...except they already out dps and out tank both of those classes in pve and do very well in pvp. It's fine as is. I wish sippy would get nerfed....but that's mainly because there's nothing like that for my class, so its more me being jelly than anything.

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Durand
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Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Durand » Sun May 21, 2023 9:15 am

IF paladins can be super op and get talent buffs and tailored gear, and still have plans to get even more op, why do you want to nerf warriors again?

Just leave it be, nobody forces you to let the healing gear be rolled by wars, just set a rule that they cant roll for healing in your raids and dungeons and be done with it, but dont block others from enjoying the game in the way they want please.

The only thing that this nerf would change is that warriors would have to dualbox healer themselves for the same effect, instead they can jsut use sippy once in 5 minutes.

99% of people will never get healing above 500 anyway.

Do not touch Diamond Flask, do not add self heal to warriors,
but i 100% agree to disable the sipp in blood ring and maybe even in all battlegrounds.

Mechsoap
Posts: 29

Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Mechsoap » Sun May 21, 2023 3:52 pm

Durand wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 9:15 am
IF paladins can be super op and get talent buffs and tailored gear, and still have plans to get even more op, why do you want to nerf warriors again?

Just leave it be, nobody forces you to let the healing gear be rolled by wars, just set a rule that they cant roll for healing in your raids and dungeons and be done with it, but dont block others from enjoying the game in the way they want please.

The only thing that this nerf would change is that warriors would have to dualbox healer themselves for the same effect, instead they can jsut use sippy once in 5 minutes.

99% of people will never get healing above 500 anyway.

Do not touch Diamond Flask, do not add self heal to warriors,
but i 100% agree to disable the sipp in blood ring and maybe even in all battlegrounds.
The whole sippy build is ludicrous and i don't know any equivalent in other classes that isn't a gimmick, while not having sippy as a warrior severely limits your PvE and PvP potential. There must be a more lore-friendly way that doesn't seem like abusing a misplaced set of script on a lvl 50 quest item.

Boras
Posts: 134

Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Boras » Sun May 21, 2023 6:03 pm

Durand wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 9:15 am
IF paladins can be super op and get talent buffs and tailored gear, and still have plans to get even more op, why do you want to nerf warriors again?

Just leave it be, nobody forces you to let the healing gear be rolled by wars, just set a rule that they cant roll for healing in your raids and dungeons and be done with it, but dont block others from enjoying the game in the way they want please.

The only thing that this nerf would change is that warriors would have to dualbox healer themselves for the same effect, instead they can jsut use sippy once in 5 minutes.

99% of people will never get healing above 500 anyway.

Do not touch Diamond Flask, do not add self heal to warriors,
but i 100% agree to disable the sipp in blood ring and maybe even in all battlegrounds.
What tailored talents? They just made consecration baseline and made you waste 3 talent points to be able to taunt, which fucks up your mana regen. I would’ve preferred improved concentration aura because at least I could use it to maybe resist a silence every now and then. You don’t even get threat from your mana regen so even more of a nerf cuz it’s a buggy server. They also nerfed holy by removing lasting judgments and ret still sucks balls. Shockadins don’t even exist anymore because they moved seal of command to the bottom of the ret tree.

What gear? It’s still all healing gear? If you’re talking what? The maybe two spellpower def pieces that are found on world bosses that are never alive, let me give you a golf clap for imaginative thinking 👏🏻

Kairion
Posts: 866

Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Kairion » Sun May 21, 2023 6:19 pm

Just make Flask no longer snapshot but check for HPS with every tick.- that way all the hybrid plate blizzard designed for paladins but everyone avoids (Plate gear with strength + healing) can be used by warriors if they want a decently strong sippy set. But it wouldn't allow the levels of abuse currently possible with a sippy set and switch into regular dps gear.

And Paladins should also be reigned in. But pointing at the single other class who also is overtuned ignores the fact that there are 7 classes which have nowhere near as abusable mechanics as sippy set at their disposal.

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Gantulga
Posts: 845

Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Gantulga » Sun May 21, 2023 6:44 pm

I really don't understand why the devs beat around the bush with obviously broken interactions like the diamond flask.
No, warriors aren't poor babies who "need self healing". Either remove the scaling or make it work as it actually should, with the total healing split across all ticks and checking for the healing bonus to be present each tick.

Mechsoap
Posts: 29

Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Mechsoap » Sun May 21, 2023 7:32 pm

Gantulga wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 6:44 pm
I really don't understand why the devs beat around the bush with obviously broken interactions like the diamond flask.
No, warriors aren't poor babies who "need self healing". Either remove the scaling or make it work as it actually should, with the total healing split across all ticks and checking for the healing bonus to be present each tick.
i agree that i don't necessarily think that Warriors ''need'' self healing, but that it is at least a compromise to not mess too much up with their ability to solo some elites which i have seen mentioned. But yes, its obviously broken, but its such a popular broken feature that it seems hard to just take out entirely without massive uproar for eternity.

Geojak
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Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Geojak » Sun May 21, 2023 7:38 pm

Kairion wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 6:19 pm
Just make Flask no longer snapshot but check for HPS with every tick.- that way all the hybrid plate blizzard designed for paladins but everyone avoids (Plate gear with strength + healing) can be used by warriors if they want a decently strong sippy set. But it wouldn't allow the levels of abuse currently possible with a sippy set and switch into regular dps gear.

And Paladins should also be reigned in. But pointing at the single other class who also is overtuned ignores the fact that there are 7 classes which have nowhere near as abusable mechanics as sippy set at their disposal.
thatas a good idea. no more snapshotting

Mechsoap
Posts: 29

Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Mechsoap » Sun May 21, 2023 7:45 pm

no snapshotting would be fine too yeah

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Gantulga
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Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Gantulga » Sun May 21, 2023 7:53 pm

Mechsoap wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 7:32 pm
Gantulga wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 6:44 pm
I really don't understand why the devs beat around the bush with obviously broken interactions like the diamond flask.
No, warriors aren't poor babies who "need self healing". Either remove the scaling or make it work as it actually should, with the total healing split across all ticks and checking for the healing bonus to be present each tick.
i agree that i don't necessarily think that Warriors ''need'' self healing, but that it is at least a compromise to not mess too much up with their ability to solo some elites which i have seen mentioned. But yes, its obviously broken, but its such a popular broken feature that it seems hard to just take out entirely without massive uproar for eternity.
Warriors can mow down elites with retaliation much easier than most other classes and here they get the skill at level 20.

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Ugoboom
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Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Ugoboom » Sun May 21, 2023 8:05 pm

yeah bros nerf dflask

Image

you cant let evil warriors like me get away with this
Zaas - 60 High Elf Warrior
Saere - 60 Night Elf Priest
Splendra - 59 Inferno Mode Warlock
I play a few other classes on my friends' accounts.
Slowly leveling a Resto Dryad and a dorf pally with my buddy.

Mechsoap
Posts: 29

Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Mechsoap » Sun May 21, 2023 8:07 pm

Ugoboom wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 8:05 pm
yeah bros nerf dflask

Image

you cant let evil warriors like me get away with this
yeah that is just silliness, and why people want it nerfed :P

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Ugoboom
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Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Ugoboom » Sun May 21, 2023 8:16 pm

But yeah for real the main concern, PVP, is countered by the fact dflask is purgable by warlocks, priests, shamans, also prot warrior lol

If the main concern is healers losing gear in raids, warrior heal sets can be implemented alongisde a vast selection of alt t1 t2 t3 like all classes need.

Also I would have never taken saph trinket if ZHC was allowed to be used alongside dflask from the begining. Fix that to be allowed, and then my heinous crime won't be repeated.
Last edited by Ugoboom on Sun May 21, 2023 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Zaas - 60 High Elf Warrior
Saere - 60 Night Elf Priest
Splendra - 59 Inferno Mode Warlock
I play a few other classes on my friends' accounts.
Slowly leveling a Resto Dryad and a dorf pally with my buddy.

Mechsoap
Posts: 29

Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Mechsoap » Sun May 21, 2023 8:18 pm

Why though keep such an obviously broken mechanic that is the result of a misplaced script?

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Ugoboom
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Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Ugoboom » Sun May 21, 2023 8:20 pm

Mechsoap wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 8:18 pm
Why though keep such an obviously broken mechanic that is the result of a misplaced script?
Look up Emergent gameplay. Vanilla has a suprising amount of this.

Emergent gameplay is cool especially when it helps fix a low point in a class. This is the same argument against removing powershifting that the devs agree with, it simply would be a shame.

Keep in mind that turtle launched without dflask scaling. It was added on purpose around mid 2021.
Zaas - 60 High Elf Warrior
Saere - 60 Night Elf Priest
Splendra - 59 Inferno Mode Warlock
I play a few other classes on my friends' accounts.
Slowly leveling a Resto Dryad and a dorf pally with my buddy.

Mechsoap
Posts: 29

Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Mechsoap » Sun May 21, 2023 8:22 pm

That it was implemented, instead of something that would make more sense in-universe be used, i find quite disappointing. The purposeful implementation of bugs that make classes play less like their class fantasy seems counter to the whole spiel of the server.

This is on top of the devs admitting that warriors are plain over-powered in vanilla, and hypocritical at that. The very least one can do to not make a class overpowered is not purposefully implement bugs that give them an extra tool.

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Gantulga
Posts: 845

Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Gantulga » Sun May 21, 2023 8:27 pm

Ugoboom wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 8:20 pm
Mechsoap wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 8:18 pm
Why though keep such an obviously broken mechanic that is the result of a misplaced script?
Look up Emergent gameplay. Vanilla has a suprising amount of this.

Emergent gameplay is cool especially when it helps fix a low point in a class. This is the same argument against removing powershifting that the devs agree with, it simply would be a shame.

Keep in mind that turtle launched without dflask scaling. It was added on purpose around mid 2021.
That'd be passable on a class that needs actual help.

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Galas
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Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Galas » Sun May 21, 2023 11:44 pm

I mean. One would expect a trinket to do what it is written.

If the flask says "Restores 9 health every 5 seconds and increases your strenght by 75" then thats exactly what it should do.

Anything else is just abusing obscure game interactions , that I know, is loved by a good portion of players but is just horrible from a game design standpoint.

We all know about "bugs" or surprising interactions left in games that ended up becoming staples like combos in Street Figther. This is not one of those. If they want warriors to have self heal they should just give warriors self heal instead of giving them self heal... behind a one-time quest reward and conter intuitive gear optimization to exploit a mechanic you wouldn't know had you not read it elsewhere.

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Syrathegreat
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Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Syrathegreat » Mon May 22, 2023 3:29 am

Kairion wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 6:19 pm
Just make Flask no longer snapshot but check for HPS with every tick.- that way all the hybrid plate blizzard designed for paladins but everyone avoids (Plate gear with strength + healing) can be used by warriors if they want a decently strong sippy set. But it wouldn't allow the levels of abuse currently possible with a sippy set and switch into regular dps gear.
I think this is definitely the most interesting solution - sippy set is such a fun gimmick but it should remain just that: a gimmick. It shouldn't be the case that warriors are directly competing with dedicated healers in raid, it should be a set patched together from leftovers for the fun of it.
Juniper <Gnomish Cosmonaut Corps> - Hunter | Gnome | 54 | War Mode | S&S
Kyra - Warrior | Night Elf | 25 | HC | S&S | Lorekeeper
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Merry - Paladin | Dwarf | 29 | HC

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Isvya
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Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Isvya » Mon May 22, 2023 9:46 am

There is a simple way to fix it without invalidating all the healer sets:
KEEP 100% SCALING
REDUCE DURATION TO 20s
REDUCE CD TO 2m

Who would bother snapshotting for 20s?

Kairion
Posts: 866

Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Kairion » Mon May 22, 2023 10:49 am

Isvya wrote:
Mon May 22, 2023 9:46 am
There is a simple way to fix it without invalidating all the healer sets:
KEEP 100% SCALING
REDUCE DURATION TO 20s
REDUCE CD TO 2m

Who would bother snapshotting for 20s?
Well this change would have more impacts for regular use outside of sippy set. Two min CD would mean you can reliably use it twice a fight and get arguably MORE use out of it since you get to pop it twice in hard encounters (once with Deathwish at the start and a second time in the Execute phase). This would make the Diamondflask a discount earthstrike with less distinguishing properties. Of all fixes, this does solve the least problems with changing the item the most really.

And instead it would allow warriors with paladin gear to still heal for significant amounts every 2 mins. Making it arguably much more frustrating to deal with in PvP considering warriors can just swap in two weapons with +55 addheal pop it and get a few houndred points of health without being commited either (and much more if he is commited and grabs some paladin gear)

Mechsoap
Posts: 29

Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Mechsoap » Mon May 22, 2023 11:09 am

Isvya wrote:
Mon May 22, 2023 9:46 am
There is a simple way to fix it without invalidating all the healer sets:
KEEP 100% SCALING
REDUCE DURATION TO 20s
REDUCE CD TO 2m

Who would bother snapshotting for 20s?
At this point, why have it as a warrior only? Why not just make it a high lvl dungeon drop? The problem is fundamentally the broken script involved that should not be there in the first place, and that for good reason was removed in later patches.

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Durand
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Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Durand » Thu May 25, 2023 10:59 am

Mechsoap wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 8:18 pm
Why though keep such an obviously broken mechanic that is the result of a misplaced script?
right? i think the same thing, they should remove paladins entirelly

Boras
Posts: 134

Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Boras » Thu May 25, 2023 4:39 pm

Durand wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 10:59 am
Mechsoap wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 8:18 pm
Why though keep such an obviously broken mechanic that is the result of a misplaced script?
right? i think the same thing, they should remove paladins entirelly
Paladins are in a very shit spot on here. They directly nerfed kings spam. Wisdom procs cause zero threat. Shockadins can't exist because they moved seal of command to the bottom of ret. They removed lasting judgements from holy. There's no gear for protection paladins. I think it's time warriors get a nerf to keep them in line. We start with lionheart helm, then the flask, and nerfing fury tanking so people actually have to be prot to tank raids, perhaps by removing taunt and making it a 3 talent point in deep prot just like paladins.

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Darg727
Posts: 24

Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Darg727 » Thu May 25, 2023 5:22 pm

Let bloodcraze stack like ignite does, and change the bloodthirst healing mechanic to heal for 50% of the damage done or something. This way warriors have a tactical choice of survival vs gimping other player's survival.
Boras wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 4:39 pm
Durand wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 10:59 am
Mechsoap wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 8:18 pm
Why though keep such an obviously broken mechanic that is the result of a misplaced script?
right? i think the same thing, they should remove paladins entirelly
Paladins are in a very shit spot on here. They directly nerfed kings spam. Wisdom procs cause zero threat. Shockadins can't exist because they moved seal of command to the bottom of ret. They removed lasting judgements from holy. There's no gear for protection paladins. I think it's time warriors get a nerf to keep them in line. We start with lionheart helm, then the flask, and nerfing fury tanking so people actually have to be prot to tank raids, perhaps by removing taunt and making it a 3 talent point in deep prot just like paladins.
Move improved shield block to require 21 points prot. As a personal preference, I would like to have the pre-1.6 bloodthirst back which would provide a slight nerf to warrior top end raid dps and tanking, but would improve fury warrior's pvp/non-raid pve capabilities.

Geojak
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Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Geojak » Thu May 25, 2023 6:26 pm

Mechsoap wrote:
Mon May 22, 2023 11:09 am
Isvya wrote:
Mon May 22, 2023 9:46 am
There is a simple way to fix it without invalidating all the healer sets:
KEEP 100% SCALING
REDUCE DURATION TO 20s
REDUCE CD TO 2m

Who would bother snapshotting for 20s?
At this point, why have it as a warrior only? Why not just make it a high lvl dungeon drop? The problem is fundamentally the broken script involved that should not be there in the first place, and that for good reason was removed in later patches.
I love it. Give everyone diamond flask. Rogue can get their sippy set. Paladin can. Everyone gets one. Yes it will suck... For everyone the same

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Reploidrocsa
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Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Reploidrocsa » Fri May 26, 2023 6:23 am

Ugoboom wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 8:05 pm
yeah bros nerf dflask

Image

you cant let evil warriors like me get away with this
Sippy seeeeeeet

Mechsoap
Posts: 29

Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Mechsoap » Fri May 26, 2023 9:27 am

Geojak wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 6:26 pm
Mechsoap wrote:
Mon May 22, 2023 11:09 am
Isvya wrote:
Mon May 22, 2023 9:46 am
There is a simple way to fix it without invalidating all the healer sets:
KEEP 100% SCALING
REDUCE DURATION TO 20s
REDUCE CD TO 2m

Who would bother snapshotting for 20s?
At this point, why have it as a warrior only? Why not just make it a high lvl dungeon drop? The problem is fundamentally the broken script involved that should not be there in the first place, and that for good reason was removed in later patches.
I love it. Give everyone diamond flask. Rogue can get their sippy set. Paladin can. Everyone gets one. Yes it will suck... For everyone the same
yeah why limit this bit of 'emergent gameplay' to warriors only when it doesnt fit their class fantasy anyway insidious_turtle

Balake
Posts: 735

Re: nerf Diamond Flask and give warriors self heal instead

Post by Balake » Fri May 26, 2023 10:43 am

Eh, this fits the class fantasy of the warrior in my opinion
Image

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