Changes for Alchemy Recipes & Herb Nodes

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Vikare
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Changes for Alchemy Recipes & Herb Nodes

Post by Vikare » Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:19 pm

The subject of alchemy recipes, herb nodes, and end-game consumables has been discussed frequently and at length on the discord of late. There's two major topics: prohibitive amounts of time/gold spent to get them for raiding, as well as new consumables that should be added and old ones that should be changed.

Firstly, the node respawn time on this server needs to be reduced significantly. Gromsblood, for example, can only really be farmed in Felwood or Blasted Lands. Felwood has a high number of nodes, Blasted Lands has around 20. At any given time you will only see a handful of Gromsblood up at once in Blasted Lands, and when picked it takes a half hour for them to respawn. That's one of the two major sources barren for half an hour because you pick six nodes.

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These are the four uses for Gromsblood. It's not much, but titan flasks and rage potions are mass-produced at high volumes for AQ and Naxxramas. There simply are too few nodes with too high of a respawn timer to satisfy the needs of the server. Gromsblood was merely the first example, as this continues to more important herb: Dreamfoil.

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12 of the 14 alchemy recipes Dreamfoil goes into are created countless times a day for dozens of raid teams. Almost every single end-game raiding consumable uses 1-4 dreamfoil, with both the caster and healer flasks requiring 30 each. Dreamfoil is in every zone, yet the price has tripled in the past couple months because not even the vast number of nodes can keep up with it. Ridiculously high consumable costs / time spent grinding for them is how you burn out your raiding population and make them stop playing the server. There are a couple of ways to go about remedying this, though. Some of the simple fixes are just to (again) shorten the respawn time of herb nodes. In Gromsblood's case, it would help to also add additional nodes in the Blasted Lands so it's a legitimate alternative to Felwood's 40-some nodes. Those two methods alone would have an immediate soothing effect on the grind; however, there's several forgotten herbs sitting in the corner that we haven't touched on.
  1. Icecap
  2. Arthas' Tears
  3. Sungrass
  4. Golden Sansam

These 4 herbs are extremely prevalent in the end-game zones, yet see almost zero usage in any meaningful recipes. Icecap is especially painful, with over a hundred nodes in Winterspring and in Alterac Valley. We can put them to use simply and elegantly by having them as the required material (instead of Dreamfoil) for things like the Greater Protection Potions, and swapping around herb quantities in existing flasks or elixirs. Arthas' Tears for Shadow, Icecap for Frost, Golden Sansam for Nature, et cetera. Use these unwanted and worthless herbs (which value on the AH between 50 copper and 20 silver) in existing recipes and new ones alike.

Some quick examples for existing recipes:
  • Greater Arcane Protection Potion: 1 Dream Dust, 1 Dreamfoil
  • Greater Fire Protection Potion: 1 Elemental Fire, 1 Firebloom
  • Greater Frost Protection Potion: 1 Elemental Water, 1 Icecap
  • Greater Holy Protection Potion: 1 Elemental Air, 1 Sungrass
  • Greater Nature Protection Potion: 1 Elemental Earth, 1 Golden Sansam
  • Greater Shadow Protection Potion: 1 Shadow Oil, 1 Arthas' Tears
  • Major Mana Potion: 3 Dreamfoil, 2 Icecap ==> 3 Icecap, 2 Dreamfoil
  • Greater Arcane Elixir: 3 Dreamfoil, 1 Silversage ==> 2 Dreamfoil, 2 Silversage
  • Mighty Rage Potion: 3 Gromsblood ==> 2 Gromsblood, 1 Sungrass (or Firebloom)
As for new recipes there are some readily apparent avenues that can supplement existing consumables with heavy grinds. E'ko jujus, blasted lands animal gummies, and firewater. People can easily still grind for these at their leisure, but what harm is there in creating a player profession alternative?

None of these would stack with blasted lands consumables, merely acting as an alternative method to create them and have more than 1. Perhaps obtainable from the Timbermaw, since these are tonics derived from beast materials:
  • Tonic of Rage-- 25 STR for 1 hour. 2 Firebloom, 3 Snickerfang Jowls, 1 Crystal Vial
  • Tonic of Alacrity--25 AGI for 1 hour. 2 Arthas' Tears, 3 Scorpok Pincers, 1 Crystal Vial
  • Tonic of Mind-- 25 INT for 1 hour. 2 Icecap, 3 Basilisk Brains, 1 Crystal Vial
  • Tonic of Spirit-- 25 SPI for 1 hour. 2 Golden Sansam, 3 Vulture Gizzards, 1 Crystal Vial
  • Tonic of Stamina-- 25 STA for 1 hour. 2 Sungrass, 3 Blasted Boar Lungs, 1 Crystal Vial
For an alternative to grinding furbolgs for hours, maybe from the Argent Dawn (example from Balake):
  • Blessed Firewater-- 30 AP & size increase for 20 mins. 2 Golden Sansam, 1 Sungrass, 1 Crystal Vial
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And then there's also the missing spellpower elixirs for various schools of magic, which are a significant part of the consumable power gap for specs like Boomkin, Elemental Shaman, and Arcane Mage vs other casters who have Firepower/Shadow elixirs.
  • Elixir of Arcane Power-- Increases spell arcane damage by up to 40 for 1 hour. 3 Purple Lotus, 1 Crystal Vial
  • Elixir of Natural Power-- Increases spell nature damage by up to 40 for 1 hour. 3 Golden Sansam, 1 Crystal Vial
That should keep them similar to Fire and Shadow power elixirs (3 firebloom, 3 mushrooms, respectively). Lastly, since there's the 25-30 STR and 25 agi/2% crit elixirs for physical damage, perhaps a caster consumable for INT and/or spell crit:
  • Elixir of the Occultist: Increases Intellect by 25, and a chance to get a spell critical hit by 2% for 1 hour. 3 Arthas' Tears, 1 Plaguebloom, 1 Crystal Vial
As for flask recipes, the change to Black Lotus a few months ago was perfect and dropped lotus prices from 60g to 12-16g ever since. If flask recipes are to be changed, I'm not quite sure how to go about it besides reducing the Gromsblood & Dreamfoil requirement from 30 to 15-20 or lower. Something to think on!

All the reagents listed for various recipes are up for debate, but in general they seem apt to me. They're mostly in-line with lore based on elements and the type of herb vs what they're creating. If anyone else has suggestions to add on, or change, feel free.
Last edited by Vikare on Sat Mar 18, 2023 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Dogfight
Posts: 32

Re: Changes for Alchemy Recipes & Herb Nodes

Post by Dogfight » Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:35 pm

Very constructive post, I like it. +1

I think I heard/read somewhere that one of the goals with Turtle WoW is to have a Vanilla server with a slow pace to avoid burnout. Farming consumes for raids is a known source for burnout.
By doing these simple changes you suggest here, it will make use of more of the resources available and hopefully drop the prices a bit.

Geojak
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Re: Changes for Alchemy Recipes & Herb Nodes

Post by Geojak » Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:39 pm

+1 totally agree. I vendor golden sansam from the ah that wa listed below vendor price on a daily basis in masses.
The problem isn't there is too little herbs around, the problem is that useless herbs exist at, endgame.

Totally disagree with those, suggestion in other topics of Changing herbing spawns or getting more herbs at once.

I hope devs can take your post and think about it

Balake
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Re: Changes for Alchemy Recipes & Herb Nodes

Post by Balake » Fri Mar 17, 2023 11:05 pm

Great post. This is the Blessed firewater suggestion that was posted by me in discord, presented in an easy to understand tooltip https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... height=266

Ironically elixir of nature power is coming next patch with the emerald dream raid https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=61218
I hope they think carefully about the recipe this time and don't repeat the "15 min food uses 6g essence of air" blunder.

About the tonics though, yeah the blasted lands buffs are kinda annoying to get and an alternative is needed, so I thought about the scrolls that drop randomly from mobs and how nobody ever uses them because they don't stack with basic class buffs. I think it can be changed so that all the stat scrolls are put on the same buff category as blasted lands buffs.

For example instead of roids you can use strength IV as a cheap weaker alternative and it would not interfere with any of your other consumables. The IV tier scrolls should all be buffed from 15-17 to 20 for this to be worth it.

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Vikare
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Re: Changes for Alchemy Recipes & Herb Nodes

Post by Vikare » Sat Mar 18, 2023 12:09 am

Ah, that database elixir is a nice catch!

Hopefully they just copy my reagent requirements haha. The Fire & Shadow elixirs use 3 of mid-tier herbs each, so Nature using 3 Sansam and Arcane using 3 Purple Lotus seems the perfect answer.

I agree that the Tel'Abim food recipes are egregiously expensive for a 15 minute consumable, I just didn't touch on them since I was focusing on Alchemy.

The thing about having scrolls compensate for blasted lands consumables instead is that they have 0 method of reliable farming. They're just completely random items (which already sell between 2-3g for STR/AGI IV scrolls at least). I like putting the power to have alternatives in the hands of players willing to craft them. But, hey, could also just have all three. :p

I'll add the firewater image to the main post. How'd you make it?

Geojak
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Re: Changes for Alchemy Recipes & Herb Nodes

Post by Geojak » Sat Mar 18, 2023 12:40 am

There are unused recipes for scrolls on the dB. If they, just added that to survive.

Viva
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Re: Changes for Alchemy Recipes & Herb Nodes

Post by Viva » Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:08 am

Great post. This would make raiding at 60 less of a time-sink for those of us who are already using these pots, as well as encouraging those who don't to consume. Buffs for less meta specs is great always great as well, as this is just giving them the tools that other spec/classes already have.

Crimsonlotus
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Re: Changes for Alchemy Recipes & Herb Nodes

Post by Crimsonlotus » Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:08 am

+1 to this suggestion! As a hardcore herbalist in Classic (and now a casual one in Turtle), there has been 0 reason for me to go after these high-level 'poop' herbs, and it would be lovely to see them have some practical use in endgame alchemy that helps alleviate a lot of the consumable struggles - especially as the population (and endgame player pool) increases.

I also really like the ideas for new consumables that you've suggested. Casters need love too!

Xudo
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Re: Changes for Alchemy Recipes & Herb Nodes

Post by Xudo » Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:58 am

Okay. If we are going to make consumables better, then we should take into account difference made in TBC and later patches.

Most notable change in TBC was elixir classification to Guardian and Battle ones. With the restriction of 1 elixir per type.
Flasks was greatly nerfed. Classic flask of titans in TBC give 400 hp and new flask give only 500 hp.
Materials needed to craft TBC flasks were reduced too. They also count as both battle and guardian elixir.

Why it was done? To prevent raiders to gather every possible consumable in the game for their raid.
People can't prevent their own burnout themselves. So Blizz helped them by limiting consumables power.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

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Tawneyturtle
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Re: Changes for Alchemy Recipes & Herb Nodes

Post by Tawneyturtle » Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:54 am

I'm a big fan of making consumes more accesible for casual players.

Personally I support these changes but I think there is such a thing as too many alternatives and I usually hate using this argument but it would be extremely confusing for new players if there were not only the current mountain of consumables BUT also an alternative for quite a few, so while it would be nice to have an alternative to Firewater I'd much rather just make Firewater drop way more from mobs over putting yet another item on the AH/into people's lists of consumables, especially things like 5 AP difference can just flat out make the players feel bad for going for it, much like why you never see people with +3 stats on chest over +4, its a very small difference but it still makes people feel bad for being cheap.

I'd start with making the 4 suggested Herbs replace Dreamfoil/Gromsblood in your suggested recipes. But I'd rather have them buff Firewater and E'ko droprate over creating alternatives, if for nothing else but making the game simpler, for the sake of new players (I had to teach quite a lot of players what Tea with Sugar was and how it was an absolute gamechanger in raiding).

Also PLEASE make Tea with sugar stack to 20 not 3
Tawney - High elf warrior 60
Feytale - High elf Mage 60 (Rank 1 Mage Naxx during WBs)
Have fun parsing not only at 19.

Lexiebean
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Re: Changes for Alchemy Recipes & Herb Nodes

Post by Lexiebean » Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:57 pm

There's two major topics: prohibitive amounts of time/gold spent to get them for raiding
But we have so much more free time each week for farming to get consumes now that world buffs are gone!
Isn't this what we all voted for???

-----------------

An Elixir of Holy Power should also be added. Increases holy damage by up to 40 for 1 hour.

Healingrain
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Re: Changes for Alchemy Recipes & Herb Nodes

Post by Healingrain » Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:21 pm

Lexiebean wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:57 pm
But we have so much more free time each week for farming to get consumes now that world buffs are gone!
Isn't this what we all voted for???
Yes and no. While its true you dont spend time getting buffs or having characters in buff jail, it's also true were spending more time to clear the raids and consuming more than we otherwise would as a result.

Excellent original post. Running past and simply not even wanting to pick up the glut of truly useless herbs in high level zones is an individual feels-bad moment for the gatherer and bad for the in game economy on a macro level as well.

Balake
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Re: Changes for Alchemy Recipes & Herb Nodes

Post by Balake » Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:11 pm

Lexiebean wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:57 pm
But we have so much more free time each week for farming to get consumes now that world buffs are gone!
Isn't this what we all voted for???

-----------------

An Elixir of Holy Power should also be added. Increases holy damage by up to 40 for 1 hour.
I personally didn't vote for it, and the purpose of world buff removal according to them was so they can eventually do some class changes (why the two weren't done at the same patch, who knows)

World buffs were saving more gold and time than they were costing so we've lost in that regard.

"Elixir of holy power": increase holy power by 12 for 15 minutes, cost 1 giant telabim banana, 3 dream dust, 1 righteous orb. maintenance_turtle

Oolaatris
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Re: Changes for Alchemy Recipes & Herb Nodes

Post by Oolaatris » Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:32 pm

+1 love this idea. It's always frustrating to find a zone full of end game herbs that are used in nothing, would be great to see them them have good use.

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Vikare
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Re: Changes for Alchemy Recipes & Herb Nodes

Post by Vikare » Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:47 pm

Xudo wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:58 am
Okay. If we are going to make consumables better, then we should take into account difference made in TBC and later patches.

Most notable change in TBC was elixir classification to Guardian and Battle ones. With the restriction of 1 elixir per type.
Flasks was greatly nerfed. Classic flask of titans in TBC give 400 hp and new flask give only 500 hp.
Materials needed to craft TBC flasks were reduced too. They also count as both battle and guardian elixir.

Why it was done? To prevent raiders to gather every possible consumable in the game for their raid.
People can't prevent their own burnout themselves. So Blizz helped them by limiting consumables power.
TBC's consumable system was certainly much simpler. Unfortunately, I don't know if that's really possible here. Naxx and some other specific encounters were made with consumables in mind. We're intended to enter the dread citadel with as many buffs as possible, and some encounters require chugging protection potions just to stay alive. Having only 2 would nuke the player power level right now. The database holds a number of brand new alchemy recipes, we're definitely headed in the direction of more options vs fewer.

Xudo
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Re: Changes for Alchemy Recipes & Herb Nodes

Post by Xudo » Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:57 am

Vikare wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:47 pm
Xudo wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:58 am
Okay. If we are going to make consumables better, then we should take into account difference made in TBC and later patches.

Most notable change in TBC was elixir classification to Guardian and Battle ones. With the restriction of 1 elixir per type.
Flasks was greatly nerfed. Classic flask of titans in TBC give 400 hp and new flask give only 500 hp.
Materials needed to craft TBC flasks were reduced too. They also count as both battle and guardian elixir.

Why it was done? To prevent raiders to gather every possible consumable in the game for their raid.
People can't prevent their own burnout themselves. So Blizz helped them by limiting consumables power.
TBC's consumable system was certainly much simpler. Unfortunately, I don't know if that's really possible here. Naxx and some other specific encounters were made with consumables in mind. We're intended to enter the dread citadel with as many buffs as possible, and some encounters require chugging protection potions just to stay alive. Having only 2 would nuke the player power level right now. The database holds a number of brand new alchemy recipes, we're definitely headed in the direction of more options vs fewer.
Various protection potions are not elixirs.
https://www.wowhead.com/tbc/item=13458/ ... ion-potion - don't marked as guardian or battle
https://www.wowhead.com/tbc/item=13512/ ... reme-power - counts as guardian and battle

Limiting amount of "buff" consumables to 2 will also balance situation when some classes should drink a lot of various elixirs, while others only few ones. Everyone will drink only 2 and they should choose which one is the best for character.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Ibux
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Re: Changes for Alchemy Recipes & Herb Nodes

Post by Ibux » Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:43 am

+1 lots of good ideas. "persist through death" for more consumables would be great. if you spent a ton of time and gold gathering consumables only to lose them because of other guild members failing on 20 year old bosses. it just sucks. progressing with a less experienced guild can often be painful expensive.

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Aydea
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Re: Changes for Alchemy Recipes & Herb Nodes

Post by Aydea » Sat Aug 19, 2023 1:24 am

That is a most well written post if I have ever seen one and having an alchemist myself I can say I completely agree with most of the points brought up. I also want to say thank you and express my gratitude for all the effort that went into writing this post, doing your research for it and presenting it in such a fashion that it is such a good read. I especially appreciate the invitation for a healthy and good natured debate that I would like to take up in what fashion I can.
I do agree with most of the points, though not all of them. I will try to respond in order from the points where I agree to where I disagree and would seek to debate the points. And then I will offer what ideas I have to contribute to the search for a good solution and try to keep what humor I may sprinkle in good natured.

So here we go ...

Underused Herbs and Existing Recipes

I adore the suggestion to find a good use for agonizingly underused herbs and I am almost certain I am not the only one saying this but it really is a bit of a let down to find an amazing new herb only to realize its actually not really useful in much of anywhere and what it does for you is take up inventory space you could use for something far more interesting!! So, I am completely in favor of altering the existing recipes to find a use for underused herbs. That makes a lot of sense in my opinion and I also believe it would actually help the server and, however little, contribute to a solution for another problem mentioned here with some herbs being over farmed and re-spawn times not being low enough, though I will go into that further down my past. At the very least it would cause a more harmonious use of the existing herbs and that might help with overfarmed herbs being less overfarmed.
Regardless though I am completely in favor of that suggestion and support it one hundred percent.


Persistence

While I get the idea behind this there is a case to be made in asking if that wouldn't be a bit too much. I mean on the one hand I get that spending considerable time on gathering herbs, then brewing potions to try a difficult encounter only to get defeated and ... loosing all your precious buffs. -.- Yah, that ... thats not fun, so I get it.
On the other hand, flasks, as I understand it, actually do have the quality of persisting which lends them a unique quality and certainly a place that is different from a regular potion. And with good reason. Brewing flasks is a bit of a feat and a costly endeavor. Not just to get to a place where you are capable and able to do so but also in terms of reagents. So that makes a lot of sense to let them persist in order to remain the full duration.
It would cheapen the flasks to give other potions the persistence quality, however, it also would make sense to do it because life time is finite and I honestly get how it is a let down to go through potions so much faster than necessary as a result of the party getting defeated. I honestly see both sides and in my opinion I don't know a good solution here, I am sorry to say. =/


Respawn Times

Here is where I disagree and this is why: In my experience gathering herbs really isn't the problem with the respawn times as they are now. You might have to play nice sometimes and give a little take a little due to higher population these days but overall, I have found that the respawn times actually seem okay to me. Then again, I don't have the expectation of having full potions up at all times in any dungeon encounter I go to. Potions make a difference and help certainly but I wouldn't dream of berating someone how they dare not to bring potions to a dungeon run let alone kick them from the group just because they didn't. Unfortunately, in raids I hear things can sometimes be a little bit like that depending where you go and whom you run with.

Be that as it may, my own personal experience is that potions are entirely optional in difficult encounters in this game. They help, certainly, as I said but they are no substitute for the actual game-winning moves in this game: Team-Play, Coordination and excellent conduct (being a decent social creature).

People have shown it before on videos and, as of recently, even here ... you can run dungeons alone if you know how and really want to. I am not saying thats good or even healthy but its possible. Rumor has it even a raid instance was completed with as little as half a team consisting of (and entirely so) paladins, believe it or not. And if you really wanted to, you could probably run most five person dungeons with a team consisting of less than that, so with four or even three people. At level. And without potions. I am not saying that you should or that it is healthy, I am only pointing out that it is very doable.

Which leads me to why I disagree in specific. As far as i can tell the more difficult dungeons also benefit from the same things that regular dungeons benefit from: Team-play, coordination and excellent conduct. Arguably I would even go as far as to say that the more difficult dungeons (raid dungeons) benefit even more so from these qualities than regular dungeons simply because instead of five people there are anywhere from ten, fifteen, twenty or forty people playing together.
I completely understand that coordination and team-play is, as a result, also so much more difficult but ... you know what I think? I think that may just be intentional by design. Maybe these dungeons are meant to require that level of team-play and coordination and goodness forbid excellent conduct so you can look to one another's face the next day (or whatever the online equivalent of that is).

And as I mentioned above potions/consumables are no substitute for team-play, coordination and excellent conduct. And the problem I see with the respawn times is, at least in my opinion, not so much in the respawn time but instead in two things:
#1. Overpopulation (known issue) and
#2. people trying to use potions/consumables as a substitute for team-play and coordination. Which leads to an expectation of having full consumables up at all times, which leads to overfarming and needless competition over aforementioned limited resources. And competition breeds strife and one of the first things that suffers in strife is ... you guessed it. Excellent conduct (being a decent social creature).


Conclusions and closing Statement

As a final word, I want to say and reiterate that I completely agree and understand that overpopulation is very much a problem that contributes to and exacerbates most if not all of this in a significant fashion. But this is known, this is being worked on and until the solution to it is implemented it may be better to exercise patience and play nice and not ask the developers to lower respawn times for the time of overpopulation only to have to ask them again at a later date to increase respawn times again to normal levels once the population naturally wanes again.

At the end of the day consumables are nice and they help and at times they make a game changing difference for sure. However, they are by no means mandatory and game-breakingly powerful so that no one could possibly run their raid dungeons ever without full consumables up at all times.

This is also part of what I would offer as a potential solution to this issue: Instead of forcing or coercing people to always have full consumables up and available for raids, perhaps improving team-play and coordination would be a better investment of life time. I am sure this video game isn't the only "instance" benefiting from improvements in those areas.
That would however mean refraining from taking short cuts such as having a level sixty do quests for another person while they sit back and learn nothing. It would mean learning the game, learning a class. Learning professions and learning the difference between "we" and "I", though this latter part being something I find is increasingly difficult to even get so much as understanding for when bringing it to people's general attention span (or lack there of)these days.


Epilogue

Anyways, thats all I have got for this debate. I am hoping that regardless whether you agree or disagree with what I said it was at least a decent read and provided some food for thought. What I have posted here is only my own personal opinion and I am not making any claims that my opinion is right. It is just my opinion and my view and I might very well be wrong and thats okay for me. I am posting here to contribute to and take up the offer for the debate, as I said in the beginning so what matters to me is a good out-come for this matter at the end, not who is right or wrong.

Calli
Posts: 280

Re: Changes for Alchemy Recipes & Herb Nodes

Post by Calli » Thu Nov 30, 2023 2:17 pm

Yeah, very nice, spending an hour running around the plaguelands and get 1 or 2 nodes of plaguebloom off-peak time and seeing several campers standing there all along.

Happyshadow
Posts: 6

Re: Changes for Alchemy Recipes & Herb Nodes

Post by Happyshadow » Fri Dec 01, 2023 6:58 pm

I agree with most of what OP has said. Especially Gromsblood and Plaguebloom is pain to farm. Felwood has people farming the nodes around the clock. One Elixir of the Mongoose can be as expensive as 8 gold. I wouldn't swap Gromsblood or Plaguebloom from recipes but something has to change with node spawn rates and/or the locations they spawn as of now.

While Dreamfoil is needed for most of the alchemy recipes at least that herb is widely gathered from multiple zones including Alterac Valley.

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