Paladin taunt done wright and some other prot improvements

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Tasman
Posts: 116

Paladin taunt done wright and some other prot improvements

Post by Tasman » Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:03 pm

Current paladin taunt have worst possible implementation in the game and prot paladin also lacks surviability. So here is some my thoughts of how it can be fixed:
I suggest to give paladin proper baseline taunting seal trained at 10 lvl. Implementation of it would look like that - when it is active on paladin all his attacks (physical/holy) would generate 20% of additional threat and taunt target when discharged and make it not remove on target effect from previously used seal.
As for [Improved Seal of Justice] taunting effect can be changed to 33/66/100% of immobilization for 1-2 sec when SoJ is discharged on the targed.

Some improvements for prot tree aurviability talents:
[Improved Devotion Aura] - should be buffed with reduced chance to get critical strike by 5% (1% per each talent lvl) to current 25% of auras armor bonus.
[Anticipation] - change 10 points defense skill to 5% of dodge.
[Blessing of Sanctuary] - should also give defense skill something like 3 per each spell lvl resulting in 12 at max rank of spell lvl.
[Improved Righteous Fury] - add bonus 6% of damage reduction when it is active on paladin (2% per talent lvl).
[Ardent Defender] - if paladin have over 60% of HP he gets 15% of all damage reduction and as bonus, this talent grants him passive ability that gives mana, when healed by other friendly target's spells. The amount of mana gained is equal to 10% of the amount healed.

Ideas for holy tree:
New talent: [Improved Holy strike] - 2 point talent at row 2 that allows Holy Strike to strike 2 additional nearby targets for 50% of damage dealt to main target and decreases mana cost for 20% (+1 target and 10% of mana cost reduction per each talent lvl).
New talent: [Holy Land] - 1 point talent at row 3. Grants your consecration spell ability to heal you, members of your party and raid if they stand on the consecrated land. Healing occurs every time when damage supposed to be done to the enemies who enter the area. It will be alternative for Sanctity Aura, if someone wants to be a healer and it allows paladin be a mass healer.

Improvements for ret tree:
[Vindication] - complete rework of it. This debuff should decrease damage, crit, dodge and hit chance by 3% (1% per each talent lvl).
[Pursuit of Justice] - should increase movement speed to 10% and as bonus attack speed to 4% (5% movement speed and 2% attack speed for each talent lvl).
[Eye for an Eye] - all critical attacks against paladin (magic/physical, melee/ranged) return 10% of damage back to the attacker (5% per talent lvl). Damage should not exceed 33% of paladins health.

Kairion
Posts: 866

Re: Paladin taunt done wright and some other prot improvements

Post by Kairion » Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:23 am

Have you played a paladin tank recently? These changes combined might even dethrone warriors on single target bossfights.

The taunt seal baseline would be a massive QoL improvement. Being able to taunt in a pinch as ret or taunt without removing JoW from the target would make taunting for pallies way less of a chore. Also increased physical threat could help in fights with holy resistences.
+1

Improved seal of justice should just be reverted to the useless talent noone skills or get replaced. 2 second root on an 8 second cooldown while paladin is already overbuffed for pvp is something he clearly shouldnt get.

Devotion Aura is an aura as the name implies. Granting passive pve crit immunity to anyone in the group is way too good. A feral druid can quite reliably get 10+k hp and armorcap. Having a devotion aura also turning him crit immune is a bit too good as well.
And i think its bad gamedesign to "passively" be immine to crits. It shifts the gearing focus from tanks further away from survivability to threat. So you are just a dps with a shield.
Even if the -5% crit only affects the paladin himself its the most boring way to deal with one of tankings hardest challenges, Surviving the worst case, by just removing that case.

Blessing of sanct is plenty strong while leveling. But giving it a littoe something to make it more enticing at high level would be nice, but really not necessary.

Improved righteous fury getting a -6% damage taken added is imho wasted effort. Its already a worthwile talent as is.

Ardent defender sure is a trash talent, but your new proposal would just make paladin explode more suddently. If healers are on top of it, its a passive 15% damage reduction. Thats really good. If healers are not on point, the feeling is that paladins explode (you take very little damage all fight but if you fall below 60% you just keel over and die).
And other pallies will hate me for saying this, but mana really isnt an issue if you know what you are doing.
A mana class should have to think about Mana. A warrior after all starts with an empty resource bar, manausers do so with a full bar.

Improved holy strike is laughably good. No way aoe tanking needs to get access to that.

The consecration healing i kinda like flavorwise. Probably put it further down in the tree. It sounds quite potent for aoe tanking since he geta additional healingthreat that way.
But the ticks of conc are not so strong as to this being an issue
+1

Vindication is currently dog tier, but the buff is a little over the top.

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Wrathweaver
Posts: 167
Location: Norway

Re: Paladin taunt done wright and some other prot improvements

Post by Wrathweaver » Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:20 pm

The lvl 60 focus is what has destroyed vanilla paladin.
If any more changes are to be made, it must be new spells and not removal of classic spells.
Great Sun and Glorious Leader of the Bring Back Judgement of the Crusader movement.

Dogfight
Posts: 32

Re: Paladin taunt done wright and some other prot improvements

Post by Dogfight » Sat Mar 18, 2023 11:20 pm

Kairion wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:23 am
Have you played a paladin tank recently? These changes combined might even dethrone warriors on single target bossfights.
This might actually be a good thing for the game; changes in the meta. We want to see the game evolve and change. One way to make it more interesting in the long term could be to change up the meta for tanking, dps and healing. One way to do this is through buffs to talents, abilities or class gear sets.
How about patch 1.16.6 brought with it class changes and gear drops from the new raid that boost certain classes and specs in such a way that they suddenly go from being underdogs to top performers? And then in a later patch it can be changed up again. This will, in my opinion, keep things interesting by not knowing that warrior will stay the best dps and tank forever.

Regarding the original post;
Creative thoughts. +1 for changing the taunt.
Mitigation and damage reduction needs a boost. However I think it should be further down the talent tree in general. That way it can be more powerful talents, while still keeping holy and ret paladins away from them to not boost PvP survivability for those specs. After all, we are SPECIALIZING into protection, which means the talents far down the tree should actually be powerful enough to give a real boost to survivability that is exclusive to protection. At the moment, it's too weak.

Kairion
Posts: 866

Re: Paladin taunt done wright and some other prot improvements

Post by Kairion » Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:25 am

Warrior is not the best tank. Warrior is the best tank in single target hard hitting fights. Druid is the better tank for high magic damage fights, Paladins run circles around warriors in AoE encounters and both druid and pally provide massive raid utility with their buffs.

If you make paladin better than warrior in this specific aspect without also giving warriors some changes you dont make the meta interesting, you just make warriortank obsolete. As a paladin you should know how bad this feels, why would you want the fate yout spec is currently having onto other classes?

Outside of chromaggus and the fear encounters my paladin has tanked all encounters up to aq40 clear.
And its a much maligned meme in my guild that i am a soft target, but with proper itemisation the difference in survivability is limited to gear difference between our wartior and me and shieldwall/ last stand being better o shit buttons than lay on hands.

Paladin needs three changes. Access to better itemisation (e.g. 440 defense in combination with paladin stats to be crit immune), access to a decent taunt and a way to turn auto attacks into pure holy damage. The rest is not really necessary.

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Excarillion
Posts: 16

Re: Paladin taunt done wright and some other prot improvements

Post by Excarillion » Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:45 am

Kairion wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:25 am
Warrior is not the best tank. Warrior is the best tank in single target hard hitting fights. Druid is the better tank for high magic damage fights, Paladins run circles around warriors in AoE encounters and both druid and pally provide massive raid utility with their buffs.

If you make paladin better than warrior in this specific aspect without also giving warriors some changes you dont make the meta interesting, you just make warriortank obsolete. As a paladin you should know how bad this feels, why would you want the fate yout spec is currently having onto other classes?

Outside of chromaggus and the fear encounters my paladin has tanked all encounters up to aq40 clear.
And its a much maligned meme in my guild that i am a soft target, but with proper itemisation the difference in survivability is limited to gear difference between our wartior and me and shieldwall/ last stand being better o shit buttons than lay on hands.

Paladin needs three changes. Access to better itemisation (e.g. 440 defense in combination with paladin stats to be crit immune), access to a decent taunt and a way to turn auto attacks into pure holy damage. The rest is not really necessary.
Totally based

Tasman
Posts: 116

Re: Paladin taunt done wright and some other prot improvements

Post by Tasman » Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:17 pm

Kairion wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:23 am
Have you played a paladin tank recently? These changes combined might even dethrone warriors on single target bossfights.

The taunt seal baseline would be a massive QoL improvement. Being able to taunt in a pinch as ret or taunt without removing JoW from the target would make taunting for pallies way less of a chore. Also increased physical threat could help in fights with holy resistences.
+1

Improved seal of justice should just be reverted to the useless talent noone skills or get replaced. 2 second root on an 8 second cooldown while paladin is already overbuffed for pvp is something he clearly shouldnt get.

Devotion Aura is an aura as the name implies. Granting passive pve crit immunity to anyone in the group is way too good. A feral druid can quite reliably get 10+k hp and armorcap. Having a devotion aura also turning him crit immune is a bit too good as well.
And i think its bad gamedesign to "passively" be immine to crits. It shifts the gearing focus from tanks further away from survivability to threat. So you are just a dps with a shield.
Even if the -5% crit only affects the paladin himself its the most boring way to deal with one of tankings hardest challenges, Surviving the worst case, by just removing that case.

Blessing of sanct is plenty strong while leveling. But giving it a littoe something to make it more enticing at high level would be nice, but really not necessary.

Improved righteous fury getting a -6% damage taken added is imho wasted effort. Its already a worthwile talent as is.

Ardent defender sure is a trash talent, but your new proposal would just make paladin explode more suddently. If healers are on top of it, its a passive 15% damage reduction. Thats really good. If healers are not on point, the feeling is that paladins explode (you take very little damage all fight but if you fall below 60% you just keel over and die).
And other pallies will hate me for saying this, but mana really isnt an issue if you know what you are doing.
A mana class should have to think about Mana. A warrior after all starts with an empty resource bar, manausers do so with a full bar.

Improved holy strike is laughably good. No way aoe tanking needs to get access to that.

The consecration healing i kinda like flavorwise. Probably put it further down in the tree. It sounds quite potent for aoe tanking since he geta additional healingthreat that way.
But the ticks of conc are not so strong as to this being an issue
+1

Vindication is currently dog tier, but the buff is a little over the top.
I will not comment on all what was writen here. Just I want to point out, logic behind my ideas. One is that paladin dont have abilities like Shield wall and Last stand, so he needs buffed defensive talents that would grant him passive surviability. Those prot paladin changes will not make warriors obsolete because, there are warriors topics where people also make suggestions, that mean if changes would be made by devs based on community suggestions, all classes would get some improvements. Also all of my suggestions should be wieved together when one talent affects others. Like Ardent defender 15% damage reduction + Improved righteous fury getting a -6% already results in 21% and so on with other talents (but already if it would be too weak or OP numbers can be changed, because this is only concept from me). Same with Devotion Aura 5% crit immune, it will be picked up instead of ret aura improving overall surviability combined with other talents, opening some spots for items with other stats (so you dont need stack too much defense). So Improved Holy Strike probably not good idea, copying warriors cleave than give Avengers shield as 21 talent (that will be even better and prot will be good in pvp). About SoJ, I wanted prot be valuable in pvp and with Avengers Shield, it would be annoying target that will have good surviability and be hard to kill and this seal would be good on BGs to preventig enemies to get away from him. Most off my suggestions is based on TBC and Wrath expansion talents, so devs dont need invent something new and get things that dont work. In case of Ardent Defender devs picked worst idea from TBC, Wrath version was much better.

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