Raider's view on possible changes

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Elewent
Posts: 5

Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Elewent » Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:31 pm

Hi!
This is my first post. It's meant to point the possible changes that improve the raiding atmosphere.
I will try to point out the proposed change, explain the reason for said proposed change, and possibly indicate a historical equivalent change that had already been done.
To start, I've been raiding Naxxramas (https://armory.turtle-wow.org/#!/character/Element) as well as all other raids for a while on different servers, including the past year on turtle wow. I believe that a happy raiding environment will keep raiders around, which are some of the most active and impactful players on the economical/social atmosphere of the game as a whole - meaning we should try to keep raiders happy.

I will try to start with the less controversial and simple changes, that I believe no one should have any issues with:

1.
https://database.turtle-wow.org/?quest=80369, Tea with Sugar.
Tea with sugar has become a staple of raiding consumables for most raiders. You get 4 pieces with 3 charges (12 charges total). My proposal for this consumable is simple - make it 1 stack of 12 charges. Close to all consumables have already had this done to them (Mongoose, giants, free action potion etc. stacks were made 5->10), so it makes sense for this consumable to also take less space.

2.
Recently we have had debuff slots increased to 64. My simple proposal here is to also increase buff slots to 48. From my understanding the current buff slots are at 32 slots. This change affects positively those that wish to have more things to do outside of the raid, but it also affects custom class changes. For example, we have had Bloodlust as well as priest champion buffs push off consumables off our tank and other players. This increases the disincentive from playing these custom specs and also creates more interaction in the game as more herbs etc. are farmed and sold between players.

3.
Some herbalism nodes are lacking. We have had a large increase in costs for Grave moss as well as Gromsblood prices.
You can see that these prices have been constantly high and even increasing lately on https://www.superduperauctions.com/turt ... w/alliance. Grave moss is a component of Greater Shadow Protection Potion and Gromsblood is used for multiple needed consumables, such as Flask of Titans, Mighty Rage Potion, and Elixir of GIants. My suggestions is to either increase the amount of nodes in the world, or increase the amount of herbs you can get per node. You can see this already been done for Black lotus, when it was high in price, by adding it to high level herbs. I think this change is equivalent and much needed. An alternative reverse suggestion would be to make shadow oil require half the Grave moss, and Mighty rage potion require 1 Gromsblood.

Blasted Lands buffs also possibly require some changes. Currently there are not enough spawns for the server. Every spot is filled with players most of the time, which leads to frustration. I personally am not 100% set on this requiring changes, but one suggestion would be to increase their drop amount to a random value between 1-3. This is especially the case for Blasted Boar Lungs and Scorpok Pincers.

4.
Length of consumables
Frostmaul Giants are lvl 59-60 elites in Winterspring that drop https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=12436 Frostmaul E'ko. These require a group to kill, and even then are not very much a worthwhile time investment. The main issue with said consumable, even if it is the best attack power consumable, is that it only lasts 10 minutes. I suggest making the consumable last 20 minutes, which will create more social interactions of groups farming said consumable.

Other consumables, that I believe should be changed are:
Tel'abim food (30 minutes, maybe people will finally visit the island. Currently they are far too expensive for their duration). I believe there is also value in letting them stack with other food buff (My understanding is that they do not).
Consecrated Sharpening Stone and Blessed Wizard Oil- Currently you need 1 argent dawn token to trade in for 1 stone. I think this is excessive, especially for a class like hunter which requires two stones per hour. I suggest making 1 Argent dawn token trade for 2 Stones/Oils instead.

Ok, enough consumable talk. smiling_turtle_head

I'd like to talk about some changes in regards to gameplay in raids. Some of these will be more opinion based for what I think is good or bad for raids

Rogue tanking. This is gimicky and cute for dungeons. But I do not want to see rogues above 100% mitigation not being able to take a single bit of damage on end game bosses in naxxramas. This is clearly not intended and cheats the entire fight. As our raid never used a rogue tank, I'm not sure if it is anymore possible without wbuffs (someone can comment on this). Nevertheless, I think this needs to be thought through and changed. I can't say I have any good suggestions here outside of removing/reworking the Flourish spell and giving rogues something more enjoyable (better aoe damage, player based combat points etc.). One rework for Flourish could make it a "take 40% less damage for x seconds" instead of pure mitigation. As far as class power, I think mages also deserve a bit more love with world buff removal. Other class balances require far more thought than I can provide here, and it's not really my place to comment on those classes.

You've nerfed Gnomish battle chicken, which is understandable (as it was not working as intended). This left quite a few players unhappy though. I think it would be valid to also fix Battle Chickens by letting their buff (Battle Squawk( stack group wide as it did in classic (https://i.redd.it/0f5gdk39vhg61.png).

As I've played warrior far too much time, I have a lot of thoughts on it. I don't intend to comment on other classes and their possible changes as I do not play them. Note that I do want class balance - if warriors get some kind of a buff, other classes should also receive something.

Warrior is fundamentally different from every single class, as their Rage generation enables their use of spells.
Mages, priests, druids, rogues, shamans... no class gets to cast more spells (outside of lack of mana) from gaining more gear - other than warrior.
With the removal of world buffs, the gameplay of warrior has changed the most out of any class fundamentally. Yes, every class did more damage with world buffs, but they are fundamentally played the same way. Warrior on the other hand, became much less fun to play. This is simply because our rage generation is much lower and we can cast far less spells now. It is a frustrating experience not being able to cast spells due to a lack of rage. My one suggestion is to modify rage formula for warriors to gain more rage. I think this change should come hand in hand with improvements for other classes, as warriors are at the top of dps charts currently.
The other route to go, which I think might be preferable, is to allow Onyxia and Zul'Gurub buffs in raids.
Personally I was against world buff changes, but I understand if it is for the sake of balancing future content. However, I think onyxia+zulgurub provide a similar benefit for all classes. Onyxia and Zul'Gurub buffs are different from the rest, as they require a large raid to clear them. This incentivises people to clear Onyxia and Zul'gurub, allowing lower geared players to get more gear. It also allows for interaction between guilds to create schedules for buff drops - which I think improves the sense of community. There is also something quite fun about having so many raiders stacking up waiting for a buff to drop in Stormwind/orgrimmar and Booty Bay/ZG Island.

One easy way to work these buffs around new content is to disable world buffs for guilds that have not cleared the entire raid. I think my ideal view of raiding is having more difficult progression, which feels satisfying. In this scenario you should not be allowed to cheat your way through bosses by brute forcing them with world buffs. I however believe, that once a guild has proven their ability to clear a raid, they should be able to have fun trying to clear it as fast as possible (which is more enjoyable with world buffs). Raids are already quite slow on this server, as there are only a few guilds that clear Naxxramas in one day. As such, I believe allowing Onyxia+Zul'Gurub buffs in raids after a guild has killed the last boss to be ideal.

TLDR on warrior talk
Warrior fundamentally different. Warrior without world buff rage generation is unfun. Three ways to go about this, either class specific changes(modifying rage generation code) while also buffing other classes or world buff specific changes, or nerfing warrior damage while buffing their rage equal amounts (personally ok with this, other might hate it). Personally I prefer world buff specific changes, as they create other external positive factors (such as improving feeling of a community and gearing new players) and require less balancing between classes.


I make this post because our population has seen large growth and I believe these suggested changes require swift action to keep these new players around.
Thanks for reading.
Last edited by Elewent on Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:01 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Reploidrocsa
Posts: 171

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Reploidrocsa » Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:41 pm

Also, make healing over time effects stack

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Pahacsinta
Posts: 44

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Pahacsinta » Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:47 pm

+changes overall,

Rogue cheese tanking helps a lot for progression guilds, altho they lack on threat insanely, in class changes we already got 0 things out of it and only this meme ability that became a thing u can cheese with were useful (beside imp sap) dont see point removing it considering warrior still top dps and tank and rogues wont be better then them probably ever.


I would suggest maybe split up blasted lands buffs to other zones so every type of consume could be in a different zone with more diverse quest requirements

herbing/alchemy really needs to change +
Last edited by Pahacsinta on Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Toirto
Posts: 36

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Toirto » Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:57 pm

wow
I think this post is pretty cool

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Heine
Posts: 50

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Heine » Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:01 pm

Reploidrocsa wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:41 pm
Also, make healing over time effects stack
Stop making pve suggestions heavlity affecting pvp in a bad way.

Ibux
Posts: 137

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Ibux » Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:01 pm

if warrior is so unfun to play without world buffs then why are they by far the most played class? improve the under represented builds first. warriors should go to the back of the fix list.

Fizzler
Posts: 13

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Fizzler » Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:03 pm

+1

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Elewent
Posts: 5

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Elewent » Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:27 pm

Ibux wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:01 pm
if warrior is so unfun to play without world buffs then why are they by far the most played class? improve the under represented builds first. warriors should go to the back of the fix list.
I think they are the most played class because they are the best tank and the best dps.

I hope people understand that my point isnt to make warriors stronger than other classes. Personally I would take a dps loss if it meant I had more rage to press spells. I do think however, that balancing through class buffs for everyone (hard to balance), gear (abit easier to balance) or consumables/buffs (easiest to balance imo) is preferable.

Ibux
Posts: 137

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Ibux » Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:42 pm

Elewent wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:27 pm
Ibux wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:01 pm
if warrior is so unfun to play without world buffs then why are they by far the most played class? improve the under represented builds first. warriors should go to the back of the fix list.
I think they are the most played class because they are the best tank and the best dps.

I hope people understand that my point isnt to make warriors stronger than other classes. Personally I would take a dps loss if it meant I had more rage to press spells. I do think however, that balancing through class buffs for everyone (hard to balance), gear (abit easier to balance) or consumables/buffs (easiest to balance imo) is preferable.
probably also because warrior can choose from all of the most played races. it doesn't sound unreasonable to me to have better rage gen for warriors as long as dps is not higher. i think this is a thing liked for most other classes also. like for example cat druids and rogue love having endless energy on vael. same for healing. sucks in general to go out of mana on a fight for most casters.

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Gantulga
Posts: 356

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Gantulga » Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:52 pm

Resource management is an integral part of the game. You're not supposed to just mash skills every GCD and never run out of your resource.

Tawneyturtle
Posts: 54

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Tawneyturtle » Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:54 pm

I really like this post. Obviously you only listed things that affect your character, so let's not dwell on the post focusing on warriors.

I think we could easily go for 60 minute consumables over 10-20-30. If the devs wanted the raid to be slow, they wouldn't have introduced Mage Refreshment table and Soulwell to the game, and instead made people trade the warlocks/mages 1 by 1. No reason why you should have to sit down and eat food/repop 1 out of 6 pots every 10 minutes.

I think an important factor no1 is mentioning is that the server has a LOT of new players right now, who are having tons of fun leveling, but endgame certainly scares them away from raiding, so many consumes to learn of, to farm for, for a player with blue gear, that is a daunting task. Changes to consumables would help old raiders but first and foremost would help NEW players looking to find their home in any of the old guilds on Turtle wow. If we want the new players to continue playing after hitting 60 we should make the raiding less gatekeeping.

Ibux
Posts: 137

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Ibux » Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:11 pm

Tawneyturtle wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:54 pm
I really like this post. Obviously you only listed things that affect your character, so let's not dwell on the post focusing on warriors.

I think we could easily go for 60 minute consumables over 10-20-30. If the devs wanted the raid to be slow, they wouldn't have introduced Mage Refreshment table and Soulwell to the game, and instead made people trade the warlocks/mages 1 by 1. No reason why you should have to sit down and eat food/repop 1 out of 6 pots every 10 minutes.

I think an important factor no1 is mentioning is that the server has a LOT of new players right now, who are having tons of fun leveling, but endgame certainly scares them away from raiding, so many consumes to learn of, to farm for, for a player with blue gear, that is a daunting task. Changes to consumables would help old raiders but first and foremost would help NEW players looking to find their home in any of the old guilds on Turtle wow. If we want the new players to continue playing after hitting 60 we should make the raiding less gatekeeping.
consumables that "persists through death" would probably be very helpful for new players and guilds that have lots of deaths or raid wipes.

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Elewent
Posts: 5

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Elewent » Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:14 pm

Gantulga wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:52 pm
Resource management is an integral part of the game. You're not supposed to just mash skills every GCD and never run out of your resource.
This is semi subjective, since rage is unique. Having more rage is more intensive, it requires more skill (both objective statements), which personally equates to more fun (subjective). I can understand people who find enjoyment in playing the resource management game that is low gear warrior, but I think (at least from personal experience) that most warriors prefer having more rage than not

Balake
Posts: 393

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Balake » Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:17 pm

Heine wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:01 pm
Reploidrocsa wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:41 pm
Also, make healing over time effects stack
Stop making pve suggestions heavlity affecting pvp in a bad way.
Honestly this won't affect pvp as I've never seen two resto druids or two healer priests in the same room in pvp dead_turtle_head

Xudo
Posts: 370

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Xudo » Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:20 pm

Elewent wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:31 pm
Some herbalism nodes are lacking. We have had a large increase in costs for Grave moss as well as Gromsblood prices.
You can see that these prices have been constantly high and even increasing lately on https://www.superduperauctions.com/turt ... w/alliance. Grave moss is a component of Greater Shadow Protection Potion and Gromsblood is used for multiple needed consumables, such as Flask of Titans, Mighty Rage Potion, and Elixir of GIants.
People whine so much about consumables, so price rise is very logical and come from players.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant. Consumed by real life.
No 60 lvl character.
Applying enchant to item should increase required level
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Rework low level recipes

Have fun not only at 60.

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Elewent
Posts: 5

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Elewent » Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:26 pm

Xudo wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:20 pm
Elewent wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:31 pm
Some herbalism nodes are lacking. We have had a large increase in costs for Grave moss as well as Gromsblood prices.
You can see that these prices have been constantly high and even increasing lately on https://www.superduperauctions.com/turt ... w/alliance. Grave moss is a component of Greater Shadow Protection Potion and Gromsblood is used for multiple needed consumables, such as Flask of Titans, Mighty Rage Potion, and Elixir of GIants.
People whine so much about consumables, so price rise is very logical and come from players.
Well people whining is probably not a good thing, a lot of the time it suggests something is wrong.
Personally I have 20k gold and another 20k in consumes stocked for next 6 months so I don't care as much.
I started restocking recently for next half a year and noticed like a 3x price increase from my last indexed prices in October for some of the herbs.

I think gromsblood prices are probably the most ridiculous lately, since you can easily dump 100g just on gromsblood a raid

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Snakeman
Posts: 53

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Snakeman » Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:58 pm

I can't speak to a lot of this but Juju Might is such a sad consumable. As a hunter it is literally your only option as an attack power consumable, so you're spending upwards of 60g just on frostmaul e'ko (because the drop rates are too low to just farm a stack for yourself) while melee classes are able to use Winterfall Firewater, which can drop as they farm Juju Power. 100% agree with buffing the duration, but I feel the drop rate from the giants also needs to be addressed, because as it is right now you can spend less time farming the gold to buy a stack of e'ko than it would take to just farm the e'ko outright from the giants.

Blasted Boar Lungs are my second least favourite farm in the game. All it needs imo is for the mobs to respawn quicker (or dynamically!), but with all the performance issues as of late I can't really see it happening for a while. Could probably benefit from just a flat droprate increase, cause as it is right now I spend like half an hour standing in one place killing boars to turn in a grand total of five lungs for my stack of ground scorpok assay.

also @ the HoT PvP comment, I'm not sure what your issue is? HoTs stack in every other version of the game but vanilla. It means having >1 resto druid around is no longer actively screwing you over, whether that's in a raid or a battleground.

Tel'Abim Surprise (rAP food) is totally fine though minus the dream dust needed to transmute, it's just the fact the haste and spellpower foods require more expensive mats on top of the dream dust that fucks with their viability. Iirc this was suggested a while ago as well, but changing the haste food to require elemental air or breath of wind would bring it up to par with the rAP food in terms of how expensive it is to craft, while giving extra purpose to underutilised drops. Essence of Air is in too many high-demand recipes to warrant it being a component of a single-use food buff, especially with haste becoming less valued by non-ferals without world buffs.

Rogue tanking can be left as-is. They don't pump enough threat to be useful in higher-end guilds, and they can't mitigate magical damage via avoidance and crumple vs caster bosses just the same as any other rogue. With flourish they can still hit avoid cap without world buffs, but they lose out on a LOT of wiggle room in terms of their gear - as I understand it, they're pretty much locked into taking agi and dodge with almost nothing to increase their threat gen. Useful for progression, but once your DPS start to approach full bis you're better off with a hit-taking tank that can really pump aggro.
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Balake
Posts: 393

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Balake » Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:29 pm

Xudo wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:20 pm
People whine so much about consumables, so price rise is very logical and come from players.
This guy doesn't understand supply and demand and doesn't realize that its devs that control both the supply and the demand.

Axoc
Posts: 74

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Axoc » Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:41 pm

1) +1

2) +1. This is especially noticeable in a pseudo-debuff (preventing a buff) sense in Spider Wing of Naxx, where Abolish Poison can't land on someone who is buff capped, in addition to places where it is noticeable in an "over-buff" sense in the ways Element mentioned in his post.

3) The reverse suggestion is not futureproofed. If for any reason this population boom were to decline or revert back to pre-boom numbers, the change would have lasting effects. Having variable spawn rates for gathering nodes in the way that devs have done variable spawn rates for quest mobs / lootable quest nodes is a good idea though. +1 to that part specifically.

4) +1

5) While the entire discussion from Discord regarding this point obviously isn't here on the forums, it was clear in that discussion that Element and others are ignorant of this topic. I don't mean that in an offensive way, it just is what it is and it can only be fixed via education. I do understand pearl-clutching at how rogue tanking SOUNDS, but even in the description here there are misconceptions of how it actually operates.

Without wbuffs, it requires near-bis (roughly 2% avoidance off of perfect bis) to work, meaning that at present only three rogues on the server are capable of (when fully raid buffed, fully consumed, and with flourish active) reaching avoidance cap. Rogues are not capable of soloing any raid mob in the game due solely to being over avoidance cap (any soloing rogues may be able to do on trash relies on them bursting the mob down before evasion fades, using a LIP, etc - i.e. the old methods that existed before flourish was added to the game). There has, to my knowledge, not been a rogue solo kill of a raid boss since the removal of world buffs, nor is it mathematically possible with gear currently in the game. With world buffs, full consumes, and getting MotW & Kings before zoning into the raid, rogues were able to solo kill Bloodlord Mandokir and Kurinnaxx, but that is no longer the case.

Specific concerns that were mentioned in the Discord conversation were that rogues could solo tank Patchwerk and Instructor Razuvious. Patchwerk is technically possible by having a team comp of a rogue tank, a shaman, and the rest ranged DPS, but to my knowledge this has never been done on this server, and it was never done in Classic. If I am wrong about this please post footage and/or logs of the fight. On Razuvious it is not possible for a rogue to solo tank the fight. Rogues can solo tank Razuvious himself, but they need someone else to pick up the adds.

The concept of "something more enjoyable" is extremely subjective and class changes should not revolve around what any one player thinks constitutes more enjoyable gameplay than another aspect of the same class. Better AoE damage was a late-Wrath change for rogues that contributed to class homogenization and is not in either the alpha or vanilla design philosophies for what the class entails.

6) Huge +1. Battle Chicken should reflect Classic, as many other things both on vMangos and this server in particular have been changed to reflect Classic.

7) Wbuffs should stay out of raids, but there are many inconsistencies on this server with how rage is generated by warriors when they take damage. Examples abound. Some are: the slime in Naxx (which doesn't even damage people whatsoever, much less generate rage from damaging them), Magmadar's fire in MC, lava in MC, Firemaw's flame buffet, etc. This would require no balancing changes, unlike nerfing warrior damage and buffing their rage generation (while a great idea on the surface, the balancing work under the hood could go wrong plenty of ways and could lead to a huge workload, whereas the rage generation fix would be copying known data values from Classic).

Considering wbuff usage during progression as a "cheat" is a clear example of why the claims about rogue tanking being a "cheat" are also invalid - wbuffs were not a "cheat" for progression, they were an intentionally-designed crutch, similar to how Flourish was intentionally designed by Turtle devs & how Turtle staff has cheered on the successful Naxx rogue tanks from the sidelines.

Kairion
Posts: 494

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Kairion » Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:48 am

On the consumables aspect of the post i fundamentally agree. There are little nuances like making tea with sugar a item without charges, so you could combine half used stacks etc, but the overall sentiment makes sense.
Same goes for buffcap. Not being able to use hots or certain buffs since it could push off expensive and hard to get buffs is as bad as the totems pushing off paladin blessings in the past.

On the warrior ragegain i disagree. Warrior is designed around lvl 60 blues or early epics and no worldbuffs in terms or rage generation. And its a fun class to play this way too. Stance dance to overpower, the decision when to use hs and when save the rage to utilize the spells with cd are part of warrior gameplay.
People got high on the feeling of unlimited rage due to massively inflated crit values and the withdrawal sure hurts a bit, but its an amount of rage they frankly should not have had to begin with.

But we play vanilla with changes, one could add more rage generation. But that is a direct dps warrior buff. So how would we compensate for that?

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