Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Razar52
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Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Razar52 » Mon Mar 13, 2023 6:23 pm

Because it is really annoying to stop the group so I can rebuff the whole party after every couple pulls.

At least from 5 min to 10 min or something.

Inovatu
Posts: 85

Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Inovatu » Mon Mar 13, 2023 6:24 pm

would be awesome, yes

Jammyxx
Posts: 476

Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Jammyxx » Mon Mar 13, 2023 6:25 pm

Makes no sense why this hasn't changed
What does it achieve in keeping them at 5 mins?

Normal blessings 15min
Greater blessings 30min

Make it happen.

Geojak
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Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Geojak » Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:25 pm

You would be surprised. There is multiple page hotly debates thread on the forum about this very, same topic from around half a ywar ago with people pationsrly arguing against it (not me) and why this, ruins the server or something

Elenar
Posts: 127

Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Elenar » Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:49 pm

nah, you think would be better, but then when it's longer you can't really appreciate it's duration short while after. Short buff duration adds variety, and it's paladin's nature. If you get rid of short buffs, you get rid of that.

Beside I don't want to see people running with 30min Blessing of Kings, Wisom or Might. Ask warrior about that who gets 2min shout ?
You value it more when it's 5min.

Tasman
Posts: 116

Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Tasman » Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:56 pm

10 min buffs would be fair compromise. No too long and not too short. And it will help a lot in 5 man instances.

Ravenstone
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Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Ravenstone » Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:12 pm

Honestly, the only reason for wanting to increase it is out of pure laziness. Paladins have some of the best buffs in the game, and you have Greater Blessings for the only time its actually detrimental. There is nothing wrong with the duration of normal Blessings.

Urimeli
Posts: 9

Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Urimeli » Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:03 pm

i agree with this, tanking as a paladin having to rebuff every 15 minutes really slows everything down and is a waste of time

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Freddofooz
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Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Freddofooz » Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:54 am

Please, i beg.

Inovatu
Posts: 85

Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Inovatu » Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:59 am

i would appreciate and value palabuffs more, if i dont have to buff every 5 Minutes
short palabuffs add nothing to the game.
If you dont want to see People with 30 Minute Buffs, you could implement a feature which get rid of the big palabuffs, when this person leaves the group, like in wotlk/retail
and the argument with the warrior shout is kinda dumb... you buff your entire group with one Battleshout at the cost of 10 Rage.
A Paladin has to buff every person and every single buff costs about 100-120 Mana...

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Sylveria
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Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Sylveria » Tue Mar 14, 2023 6:12 am

Hm.. usually I'd agreed on that topic. But I will neither agree Nor disagree with that right now, But Show some minor/small Details ppl seem to Miss:

If we increase the duration of smaller Blessings we have to increase of greater Blessings as Well, cuz 5min difference would be pointless.
If we increase the duration of greater Blessings, er decrease the amount of Times Paladine need to rebuff, which lowers the usage of reagents. Now calculate it Up to Like... 300 or 400 Times you have to rebuff less? which means you'll save a Lot of Money over time, which would be unfair towards Other Classes who also need to Spend Money in reagents..

Y'know.. Just a small Detail that should be considered as Well.

Kairion
Posts: 866

Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Kairion » Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:11 am

I dont see the difference of "only gaining 5 extra minutes on the greater blessing" being a hindrance for using greater blessings. Buffing once costs 1.5 silver. So there is no real gold argument, but the difference of buffing 9 times orm40 times is definitely still a noticeable upside for greater ones.

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Ugoboom
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Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Ugoboom » Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:20 pm

The original reason that pally buffs were 5 minutes, was so that rets' role would basically be to autoattack the boss, and buff the entire 40man raid in a loop. It was really a support class whose job was to constantly adapt to the situation handing out new buffs constantly.

This roll was loss midway through vanilla, with the 15min blessings. Now, you prebuff and dont waste mana maintaining mid combat buffs, other than the odd bop here and there.

There is no longer any reason why normal buffs shouldn't be 30 mins, and greaters 60 minutes, to reach parity with other similar class buffs.
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Kairion
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Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Kairion » Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:25 pm

30 mins for the big buffs is plenty. We dont want to make it too convinient buffing the raid on a pally and then switching to another character ;)

After all paladin buffs are quite strong as is, only being held back by their duration

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Ugoboom
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Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Ugoboom » Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:35 pm

Kairion wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:25 pm
30 mins for the big buffs is plenty. We dont want to make it too convinient buffing the raid on a pally and then switching to another character ;)

After all paladin buffs are quite strong as is, only being held back by their duration
Unlike priest and druid buffs, Pally buffs already drop the moment the pally, or the buffed person, leaves the raid, similar to how totems become unavail the moment they leave.

30/60 mins on the buffs. 0 reason not to.
Zaas - 60 High Elf Warrior
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I play a few other classes on my friends' accounts.
Slowly leveling a Resto Dryad and a dorf pally with my buddy.

Kairion
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Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Kairion » Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:10 pm

Oh interesting, didnt know that

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Karrados
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Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Karrados » Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:07 pm

That would only really fly if they increased the mana cost by a lot. Paladin Blessings were designed to be low cost, low duration but high effect.

Mekunekud
Posts: 67

Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Mekunekud » Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:33 pm

Ugoboom wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:35 pm
Kairion wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:25 pm
30 mins for the big buffs is plenty. We dont want to make it too convinient buffing the raid on a pally and then switching to another character ;)

After all paladin buffs are quite strong as is, only being held back by their duration
Unlike priest and druid buffs, Pally buffs already drop the moment the pally, or the buffed person, leaves the raid, similar to how totems become unavail the moment they leave.

30/60 mins on the buffs. 0 reason not to.
As far as I remember, only greater blessings drop off when you leave group, like auras etc. Normal ones stick around hence you can run around the world buffing players and giving them extra mp/5 or AP.
I'd say giving 15 minutes on both is fine and Greater Blessing just a convenience feature. Smooths out levelling, 5 mans pre 60 and generally everything bar raids, where it changes nothing aside from if you need a specific buff on someone like Sanctuary or BoLight.

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Bloodline1x9
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Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Bloodline1x9 » Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:40 pm

30 min buff will be too long cuz ppl will ask buff for leveling. It will be stupid.
Then they will ask to make a buffer NPS in the capital.

But 5 min is really short. 10-15 min will be enough. Do 12 minutes all pala buffs and 45 min great raid buffs

Inovatu
Posts: 85

Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Inovatu » Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:39 pm

10/20 Mins is okay
15/30 Mins also okay
no need to even longer
But 5 on the single ones is bad

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Ugoboom
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Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Ugoboom » Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:51 pm

Karrados wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:07 pm
That would only really fly if they increased the mana cost by a lot. Paladin Blessings were designed to be low cost, low duration but high effect.
Druids also have super low cost MotW, its only priest and mage buffs which are obscenely expensive for no reason.
Bloodline1x9 wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:40 pm
30 min buff will be too long cuz ppl will ask buff for leveling. It will be stupid.
Then they will ask to make a buffer NPS in the capital.

But 5 min is really short. 10-15 min will be enough. Do 12 minutes all pala buffs and 45 min great raid buffs
People already ask for stam and int for leveling. This isn't an issue. Why do you think it is?
Zaas - 60 High Elf Warrior
Saere - 60 Night Elf Priest
Splendra - 59 Inferno Mode Warlock
I play a few other classes on my friends' accounts.
Slowly leveling a Resto Dryad and a dorf pally with my buddy.

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Karrados
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Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Karrados » Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:55 pm

Yeah but the Difference is quite high even between Paladin and Druid. Assuming we are talking about Max Rank Buffs it's 445 mana for one Mark of the Wild vs 120-135 Mana for one of the blessings.

So if they want their 30 Minute duration it would need to be doubled at the very least.

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Rokit
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Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Rokit » Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:48 am

I am just... floored that people oppose reasonable QoL in the face of the large departure from early vanilla design towards late vanilla design that is the standard on this server.

Part swimming upstream, part bold contrarianism.
Rokitt - High Elf Priest

Ravenstone
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Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Ravenstone » Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:06 am

A large part of it is that seeing the Paladin change so drastically with Crusader Strike added and SotC/JotC drastically changed from its original form. Paladins have been broken for almost a year now... and is severely detrimental to the PvP experience, let alone looking nothing like Vanilla Paladin. Meanwhile you have Shamans who still suck so badly with no changes in sight.

And then along comes a thread like this which is purely for convenience sake. Then yes people start to say actually no, I don't want to see these changes. I'm not particularly opposed to increasing the length of the blessings, but I also don't really see why there needs to be a departure from the original design when there are far more important changes to be made.

Geojak
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Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Geojak » Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:58 am

Thorns, dampen magic, underwater breething are all 10 minutes.

I would liek to see shaman weapon enchants and paladin blessing standardised to 10 minutes too,nothing World changing.

Greater blessing could go to 20,25 or even 30 minutes.but Even with 15 minutes they stay, relevant because of the ease of buffing multiple people at once.

But its kinda annoying in raids you know. Those 15 mind buffs always run out first, always, need to remidn soem paladin to do some buff again. It isn't rly fun and making it 30 minutes rly doesn't hurt anything and if you think it's unfair, make these reagents 15% more expensive for paladin buffs.

You can't put greater blessing on anyone outside of group anyway and they lose the buff on group leave.

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Wrathweaver
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Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Wrathweaver » Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:36 pm

I like buffing people in groups and on the road/towns ext, but i dont do it much with paladin because of the short duration.
Paladin buffs like wisdom is kinda OP, and that might be one of the reasons for its duration.
Having a paladin in a group, even if its for dps would be more meaningful if the duration is short.

The only alternative with a huge "Maybe" might be to bring greater blessings to lower level paladins, it should not be done at all but its important to understand that paladins are going throught a period of fibropapillomatosis with a.....well decent survival rate i hope.

It is imporant not to loose hope in the class just because it is what it is now.
Just tested my paladins yesterday, it needs a dps nerf as well as a rewind.
Last edited by Wrathweaver on Wed Mar 15, 2023 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Great Sun and Glorious Leader of the Bring Back Judgement of the Crusader movement.

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Wrathweaver
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Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Wrathweaver » Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:37 pm

Ravenstone wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:06 am
A large part of it is that seeing the Paladin change so drastically with Crusader Strike added and SotC/JotC drastically changed from its original form. Paladins have been broken for almost a year now... and is severely detrimental to the PvP experience, let alone looking nothing like Vanilla Paladin. Meanwhile you have Shamans who still suck so badly with no changes in sight.

And then along comes a thread like this which is purely for convenience sake. Then yes people start to say actually no, I don't want to see these changes. I'm not particularly opposed to increasing the length of the blessings, but I also don't really see why there needs to be a departure from the original design when there are far more important changes to be made.
1+
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Roger411
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Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Roger411 » Wed Mar 15, 2023 6:56 pm

Agree, worth a change on this, theres nothing anti vanilla on a buff going from 5 min to 10, just a bit of qol

Ibux
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Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Ibux » Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:06 pm

if you think paladin buffs are short. take a look at shaman buffs. Mana Spring Totem for example is only 1 min and cost 100 mana and gives you lousy 375 mana. meanwhile blessing of wisdom gives you 2376 mana and cost 125 mana. or 7128 mana for 250 mana with the greater blessing of wisdom.

Kairion
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Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Kairion » Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:08 pm

Ibux wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:06 pm
if you think paladin buffs are short. take a look at shaman buffs. Mana Spring Totem for example is only 1 min and cost 100 mana and gives you lousy 375 mana. meanwhile blessing of wisdom gives you 2376 mana and cost 125 mana. or 7128 mana for 250 mana with the greater blessing of wisdom.
This comparison is a bit too simplistic. With blessings you choose one of all blessings per paladin, while a shaman can drop multiple of his buffs at once. Manaspring totem also applies to the same group at once, while one cast of blessing only targets one player. Both of these aspects make manaspring better than a simple cost comparison would suggest.

And the whole "class A has X so class B needs to have something equivalent to X" approach of balancing is what ruins modern wows classes.

Paladin buffs are certainly some of the strongest spells someone can throw out for one cd and their little manacost, but a longer duration would only be a convinience increase and not really have a gameplay impact (unless you consider speedrunning raids gameplay)

Ibux
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Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Ibux » Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:26 pm

Kairion wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:08 pm
Ibux wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:06 pm
if you think paladin buffs are short. take a look at shaman buffs. Mana Spring Totem for example is only 1 min and cost 100 mana and gives you lousy 375 mana. meanwhile blessing of wisdom gives you 2376 mana and cost 125 mana. or 7128 mana for 250 mana with the greater blessing of wisdom.
This comparison is a bit too simplistic. With blessings you choose one of all blessings per paladin, while a shaman can drop multiple of his buffs at once. Manaspring totem also applies to the same group at once, while one cast of blessing only targets one player. Both of these aspects make manaspring better than a simple cost comparison would suggest.

And the whole "class A has X so class B needs to have something equivalent to X" approach of balancing is what ruins modern wows classes.

Paladin buffs are certainly some of the strongest spells someone can throw out for one cd and their little manacost, but a longer duration would only be a convinience increase and not really have a gameplay impact (unless you consider speedrunning raids gameplay)
say you spend 5 min on a fight. then you have to drop 5 mana spring totems. meaning you spent 500 mana for that fight and time to drop totems that you could have spent on healing for example. and you have to recast them if you move out of range. it's not just convenience. pala can just buff before fight and it will last the duration. and greater blessing buffs the entire raid with the click of a button while mana spring totem only buffs 1 group.

Geojak
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Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Geojak » Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:07 pm

just as you said, paladins can and will just buff before the fight. changing duration from 5 to 10 min wont change anything in acutal gameplay, we still have the buff up now and will be still having it up. the only difference is the qol. paladin tanks having to stop to rebuff and drink every 4 minutes kinda slows the hole group down, its not just the paladins that are affected

Drubarrymooer
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Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Drubarrymooer » Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:18 pm

Jammyxx wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 6:25 pm
Make it happen.
Could we make it happen please?!

Ibux
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Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Ibux » Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:41 am

Geojak wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:07 pm
just as you said, paladins can and will just buff before the fight. changing duration from 5 to 10 min wont change anything in acutal gameplay, we still have the buff up now and will be still having it up. the only difference is the qol. paladin tanks having to stop to rebuff and drink every 4 minutes kinda slows the hole group down, its not just the paladins that are affected
they could let shaman's mana spring totem also give a buff for the same length to everyone affected by the totems aura.

Geojak
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Re: Longer Paladin Buff Duration

Post by Geojak » Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:28 am

I think doubling the duration from 1 to 2 minutes in case of mana spring totem just like doubling it from 5 to 10 for paladins blessing could be a, good change.

Making totems last 10 minutes feels.. Wrong? I dotn know, just a bit extreme move away from vanilla.

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