Some spell & talent suggestions

Sen8sei
Posts: 21

Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Sen8sei » Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:08 am

Paladin
- Rework spell Righteous Fury
- Remove talent Improved Righteous Fury, replace with something else
- Retribution Aura - Crusader Strike?

Righteous Fury is a mandatory spell that has to be active while a paladin is tanking or wanting to generate and hold aggro. There is no other reason for a paladin to have this spell active otherwise (that I am aware of). Therefore, the spell should be reworked to increase holy threat to the maximum percentage obtainable right from the get-go. Why? Because...

Improved Righteous Fury could be removed. The talent is basically a waste of a talent space and talent points, when something much more useful could replace it. For this suggestion, I have no ideas so far, but other players or staff members might have some creative ideas they can come up with.

Isn't Retribution Aura's damage considered Holy damage? If that's the case then Crusader Strike's effect should be amplifying the damage output of Retribution Aura. I have not yet tested other spells as I haven't played TWoW until recently a week ago, but I have noticed that Retribution Aura doesn't seem to scale with stacks of Crusader Strike.

Warrior
- Rework spell Thunder Clap

I see no reason why this spell should have a limit of maximum 4 targets.

Hunter
- Rework spell Hunter's Mark

This spell should cost less or close to 0 mana. Most instant and spammable spells should have some sort of "penalty" for casting them, though in the case of Hunter's Mark there is no reason to penalize what is essentially target swapping. You could argue that the Hunter has the ability to freely swap between targets, specifically in pvp, at free will and have an increased attack damage on each of those targets, for free. That's great, a skilled hunter should be rewarded for his speedy actions, not penalized by having their mana drained for using a mechanic. The spell already shares a global cooldown so to me that's enough of a penalty already.

I decided to review every single talent from every single class available using WoWhead classic calculator and to me they all (apart from the ones mentioned already) seem to fit in properly. They are talents that either have synergy or enhance a class and help add to the uniqueness of a class. In other words, they at least make sense in comparison.

There might definitely be other spells that could be reworked or etc. Talents? Not so much imo, but we should be open to more suggestions, as long as they don't essentially break the game or redefine it's core identity. So I am counting on the rest of the community to share their ideas here on what they consider could be improved.

What do you think?

Kairion
Posts: 313

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Kairion » Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:56 am

Righteous fury does its job as a threatspell decently. Just like warriors defensive stance it is possible to tank with just the base version of the spell. So improved righteous fury and defiance respectively are talents that make tanking easier for people who spend points into the talent tree for tanking.

Imp. Righteous fury is one of the few reasons tank paladins actually have to even spend points into the prot. tree to begin with. So the talent and the base form of the spell should absolutely stay as is.

Retribution aura does scale with spelldamage. Its just a rather low value of 3% of holy damage. So crusader strike does improve the ret aura already. And the dmg coefficient is absolutely reasonable with 3% for a free dmg reflect.

Removing the target limit on thunderclap seems excessive. Thanks to turtles change to cast it in defensive stance and its built in threat multiplier its alreasy a good spell to click in any aoe situation. On turtle it causes 270 threat for every single target hit if used in def. Stance with defiance. Thats excessive to apply this to every target within range on gcd. Dont forget it also applies an attackspeed slow. I'd say either casting it in def stance or the attackspeed debuff would have to go for this change to be somewhat fair.

The hunters mark change i am a bit on the fence. Its a reasonable change on turtle since you actively sacrifice a trueshot in the time you place hunters mark. On the other hand for questing hunters mark is already a decent spell, at least pre level 36.
But i'd say hunters wouldnt be broken if the manacost is a bit reduced. But is probably stagger the cost reductions per rank of the spell, so its not exactly free in low lvl

Sen8sei
Posts: 21

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Sen8sei » Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:46 am

Hmm... I might have to rephrase a bit.

Yea, Righteous Fury works as intended, no question there.

What I meant with Righteous Fury is that the base spell should definitely be reworked to have the maximum percentage boost, as base. In other words, if the spell has say 60% base holy threat increase, amplify it up to 80 or 100% or 110% BASE, whatever the maximum percentage is, WITHOUT needing to have a talent do it.

Therefore, the Improved Righteous Fury talent would become useless, as it already is pretty much taking up space and a filler talent. Then, TWoW can come up with some other custom talent, much more useful and creative.

I hope you understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying that the spell, nor the talent, nor that paladins need more threat generation. It's a filler talent, as filler as it can get.

You see, there's a reason why in TBC expansion they had to add something more to the talent, because as it stood, it was way too much of a filler talent. So they added damage reduction. And not only that, but in WOTLK they completely removed the threat increase (from the talent) and simply left it as a Damage Reduction talent.

From a design perspective, as I mentioned, I reviewed all other talents from all other classes and they somewhat make sense, but with Righteous Fury it simply makes no sense design-wise. As expected though as was most of vanilla balancing, since it was sort of hacked together before release due to not having the original system's developer and what not.

Regarding the Warrior Thunder Clap, the maximum amount of targets makes no sense. It should be like other AoE spells with no cap. Would it be unfair to be able to slow the attack of all those enemies? I don't know, what about Mage's Permafrost and Blizzard improved with Improved Blizzard talent? etc. Makes no sense to cap Thunder Clap amount of targets.
Edit: I forgot to mention that Thunder Clap's maximum target limit was also removed later on, though I forget in which expansion this was implemented.

And yea, Hunter Mark also got reworked later on to cost 0 mana, though I don't remember what expansion this happened on.

Thanks for your feedback!

Ravenstone
Posts: 66

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Ravenstone » Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:26 am

I'm pretty sure Kairion understood what you meant regarding Imp. Righteous Fury, but I think the point he was trying to make is that if you make it baseline, there isn't really a compelling reason for someone to go down the Prot tree, as the rest of the talents don't really add anything else that impactful other than Holy Shield. It'd make more sense for someone to spec into Ret for Vengence for example, or go for Holy Shock and ignore deep Prot altogether.

I do understand your sentiment though, its like a 3 point tax you have to pay at max level, rather than making a choice in the tree. I think there are more important changes to be made to Prot though before considering changing it.

Ravenstone
Posts: 66

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Ravenstone » Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:36 am

Sen8sei wrote:
Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:08 am
Warrior
- Rework spell Thunder Clap

I see no reason why this spell should have a limit of maximum 4 targets.
I think this makes Warriors the best AoE tanks around if you get rid of the limit. I see no reason to improve them any further in that department.

Kairion
Posts: 313

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Kairion » Fri Jan 13, 2023 11:14 am

Ravenstone wrote:
Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:26 am
I'm pretty sure Kairion understood what you meant regarding Imp. Righteous Fury, but I think the point he was trying to make is that if you make it baseline, there isn't really a compelling reason for someone to go down the Prot tree, as the rest of the talents don't really add anything else that impactful other than Holy Shield. It'd make more sense for someone to spec into Ret for Vengence for example, or go for Holy Shock and ignore deep Prot altogether.

I do understand your sentiment though, its like a 3 point tax you have to pay at max level, rather than making a choice in the tree. I think there are more important changes to be made to Prot though before considering changing it.
Exactly!

Edit: And i think there is nothing wrong with having some obviously good talents. Plenty of trees have 5% universal crit chance and everyone picks them up. Sure having more interesting talents where your choice matters, but thats a miniscule consideration in the overall scheme of spec playability
Last edited by Kairion on Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sen8sei
Posts: 21

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Sen8sei » Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:09 pm

Ravenstone wrote:
Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:26 am
I'm pretty sure Kairion understood what you meant regarding Imp. Righteous Fury, but I think the point he was trying to make is that if you make it baseline, there isn't really a compelling reason for someone to go down the Prot tree, as the rest of the talents don't really add anything else that impactful other than Holy Shield. It'd make more sense for someone to spec into Ret for Vengence for example, or go for Holy Shock and ignore deep Prot altogether.

I do understand your sentiment though, its like a 3 point tax you have to pay at max level, rather than making a choice in the tree. I think there are more important changes to be made to Prot though before considering changing it.
Ardent Defender reduces all damage taken by 25% when below 35% health. Improved Seal of Justice is essentially a taunt spell, so I think it's also worth it, though it requires 3 points for it to work at 100% due to the tax from the stun proc chance.

The other talents are not good enough imo and while they should also be considered for changing, I think Righteous Fury should definitely be a higher priority than the rest. If someone were to come up with a rework theory of the Protection Paladin tree, I am positive they would definitely discard Righteous Fury as it is now and rework or replace it entirely.

It makes no sense that they had to place an entire talent to generate more than FIFTY percent threat upwards of 100, when Warrior for example has, essentially, built-in threat multipliers everywhere that simply state "generates high amounts of threat" lol Defiance at least decently states 3% increase per point. That only means that they did not design the paladin's threat multipliers correctly and they over-compensated drastically through a talent. And if that's the case, that Righteous Fury and it's talent are basically the only things making the paladin's threat generation acceptable/viable... Then might as well remove the talent and amp the base spell for it to do the job that it's going to do anyways at 3 points into the talent.

If anything were to change from Protection Paladin tree, it would most definitely have to start at Righteous Fury since as you both mention that it's the "core" behind Prot, which may as well be considering the multipliers.

Defiance talent was MOST LIKELY implemented due to the amount of damage DPS classes were dealing, so they had to make sure Warrior aka considered the only viable raid tank completely took over aggro.

Sen8sei
Posts: 21

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Sen8sei » Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:10 pm

Ravenstone wrote:
Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:36 am
Sen8sei wrote:
Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:08 am
Warrior
- Rework spell Thunder Clap

I see no reason why this spell should have a limit of maximum 4 targets.
I think this makes Warriors the best AoE tanks around if you get rid of the limit. I see no reason to improve them any further in that department.
Please elaborate further on this, as I've understood all these years that Paladins are the #1 aoe tanks, ever.

Ravenstone
Posts: 66

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Ravenstone » Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:43 pm

Sen8sei wrote:
Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:10 pm
Please elaborate further on this, as I've understood all these years that Paladins are the #1 aoe tanks, ever.
Sure. As Kairion said, currently it gives 270 threat per target hit, every 4 seconds. If you remove the limit to the targets, you actually open up Warriors to get the Improved Thunder Clap talent to increase their Thunder Clap damage by 60% and suddenly they are doing around 430 threat to every target every 4 seconds, since building 16 rage every 4 seconds isn't really a big deal with enough targets. Now granted, I'm not entirely sure of the Paladin's AoE threat numbers, but I'd wager that it's not that much higher. Please correct me if I'm wrong on the math but it doesn't feel like a change that is either needed or of value, considering how strong Warriors are as Tanks already.

Why do you think the change needed? You haven't really explained that.

Sen8sei
Posts: 21

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Sen8sei » Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:22 pm

The threat points with Imp Thunder Clap are overkill for 4 targets, and that's also a reason why Warriors do not spec into the talent, because it has a target limit. So Paladin would always remain as the #1aoe tank, due to no target limit and due to their toolkit. Warriors just can't compete as it is now, nor can anyone else.

Theoretically speaking, if Thunder Clap's target limit was removed, maybe, as I also don't have the Paladin's numbers, could potentially out-aggro the Paladin. But that would still not make Warriors the best AoE tank, since they have no tools to survive nor sustain like Paladins do. The Warrior as an AoE tank and removing the target limit is as reckless as Challenging Shout, simply reckless in every way.

That's why I'm suggesting the change though. But I haven't explained that, true. The idea is to have the Warrior be able to deal true fashion AoE damage as other DPS classes, rolling AS a DPS class, not as a tank, and not in Defensive Stance.

Ravenstone
Posts: 66

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Ravenstone » Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:23 pm

Sen8sei wrote:
Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:09 pm
It makes no sense that they had to place an entire talent to generate more than FIFTY percent threat upwards of 100, when Warrior for example has, essentially, built-in threat multipliers everywhere that simply state "generates high amounts of threat" lol Defiance at least decently states 3% increase per point. That only means that they did not design the paladin's threat multipliers correctly and they over-compensated drastically through a talent. And if that's the case, that Righteous Fury and it's talent are basically the only things making the paladin's threat generation acceptable/viable... Then might as well remove the talent and amp the base spell for it to do the job that it's going to do anyways at 3 points into the talent.
I think it's a bit more complicated than that, which is part of the reason I don't think the talent should be changed, and that changes elsewhere should happen before considering Righteous Fury. Firstly, you don't want to make it too easy for Paladin's to hold aggro when leveling without the talent investment, which giving them the talent as the baseline would do. Secondly, you also don't want to skew the tree away from it's intention which I think it would do.

Currently, the thing that is governing tank Paladin builds is the threat, not the Protection side of things. From what I've seen and has been explained to me, Paladin's do not actually go full Prot, usually just going 21 for Holy Shield and then going 30 in Ret for Vengence. Now, this does in part lend itself to questioning the Righteous Fury formula, but that is a huge task, and may either make Paladin Tanks unviable, or just end up with Prot being ignored in favour of Vengence (which is especially true with the added Holy Strike and Crusader Strike).

We did actually have a thread about updating the Protection tree for Paladins, and Imp. Righteous Fury didn't come up: viewtopic.php?f=41&t=5323

Kairion
Posts: 313

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Kairion » Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:33 pm

Sen8sei wrote:
Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:22 pm
The threat points with Imp Thunder Clap are overkill for 4 targets, and that's also a reason why Warriors do not spec into the talent, because it has a target limit. So Paladin would always remain as the #1aoe tank, due to no target limit and due to their toolkit. Warriors just can't compete as it is now, nor can anyone else.

Theoretically speaking, if Thunder Clap's target limit was removed, maybe, as I also don't have the Paladin's numbers, could potentially out-aggro the Paladin. But that would still not make Warriors the best AoE tank, since they have no tools to survive nor sustain like Paladins do. The Warrior as an AoE tank and removing the target limit is as reckless as Challenging Shout, simply reckless in every way.

That's why I'm suggesting the change though. But I haven't explained that, true. The idea is to have the Warrior be able to deal true fashion AoE damage as other DPS classes, rolling AS a DPS class, not as a tank, and not in Defensive Stance.
your version of TClap alone is a tiny bit worse in terms of TPS than Consecration & Ret aura together. Considering you also have demo shout you would get more aoe TPS than a paladin, apply two aoe dmg debuffs to a target and even dodge more damage with piercing howl - only getting hit a little bit to sustain the rage costs.

This is massively overkill. Modern wow has tanks that hold threat by just existing. In Classic wow, having this on every tank would make the game much more boring.

And its just not necessary. Warrior have the options with gear and consumables to plug the hole in tanking large mobgroups. Many people just look at what other classes have and want the same thing for themselves, not realizing they have unique tools the other class is crying for too.

Should we give Paladin Shieldwall? No! and equally we shouldnt give infinite AoE threat to warrior

Ravenstone
Posts: 66

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Ravenstone » Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:43 pm

Sen8sei wrote:
Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:22 pm
The idea is to have the Warrior be able to deal true fashion AoE damage as other DPS classes, rolling AS a DPS class, not as a tank, and not in Defensive Stance.
From a DPS balance point of view, not every class needs to be able to do everything. Warriors and Rogues are top single target DPS. I get that it sucks there are some bits where Warriors and Rogues literally just sit by and wait for the fight to be over, but the majority of the time is Warriors and Rogues shining with their damage.

Thematically, I'd argue that shards of ice falling from the sky or a pillar of flames should do more than, I don't even know what Thunder Clap is, but it sounds like a loud noise at most.

Inadvertantly, your Thunder Clap makes Warrior tanks a lot better in an area they are traditionally weak in, pushing on the realms of Paladin tanking and basically making them redundant. Sustain doesn't play a part in raiding since it's not up to the Tank to sustain their health, and survivability you are on par if not more survivable than a Paladin with the extra health Warrior gear tends to have and the debuffs you apply to the mobs. Only when Ardent Defender kicks in can I see a Paladin being more survivable than the Warrior.

Sen8sei
Posts: 21

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Sen8sei » Fri Jan 13, 2023 11:37 pm

Ravenstone wrote:
Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:23 pm
Sen8sei wrote:
Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:09 pm
It makes no sense that they had to place an entire talent to generate more than FIFTY percent threat upwards of 100, when Warrior for example has, essentially, built-in threat multipliers everywhere that simply state "generates high amounts of threat" lol Defiance at least decently states 3% increase per point. That only means that they did not design the paladin's threat multipliers correctly and they over-compensated drastically through a talent. And if that's the case, that Righteous Fury and it's talent are basically the only things making the paladin's threat generation acceptable/viable... Then might as well remove the talent and amp the base spell for it to do the job that it's going to do anyways at 3 points into the talent.
I think it's a bit more complicated than that, which is part of the reason I don't think the talent should be changed, and that changes elsewhere should happen before considering Righteous Fury. Firstly, you don't want to make it too easy for Paladin's to hold aggro when leveling without the talent investment, which giving them the talent as the baseline would do. Secondly, you also don't want to skew the tree away from it's intention which I think it would do.

Currently, the thing that is governing tank Paladin builds is the threat, not the Protection side of things. From what I've seen and has been explained to me, Paladin's do not actually go full Prot, usually just going 21 for Holy Shield and then going 30 in Ret for Vengence. Now, this does in part lend itself to questioning the Righteous Fury formula, but that is a huge task, and may either make Paladin Tanks unviable, or just end up with Prot being ignored in favour of Vengence (which is especially true with the added Holy Strike and Crusader Strike).

We did actually have a thread about updating the Protection tree for Paladins, and Imp. Righteous Fury didn't come up: viewtopic.php?f=41&t=5323
Explain to me why Paladin's holding aggro while leveling is a problem and how it affects gameplay, or for that matter, any other tank class. When and where is it exactly considered a problem? While solo-leveling by questing or killing mobs? In 5man dungeons? While in a group with one, two, three or four other people questing or grinding exp? It's not easy and the change would not make it easier "just like that", even with threat modifiers implemented through talents, there are other volatile factors at play that complicate the tank player's life CONSTANTLY and at any moment. Can a good player benefit from the "easy change"? Sure, and in the long run as well. Can a bad player benefit and become a pro tank for free? No, and not in the long run by a long shot either.

These volatile factors should be what determine a tanks ability to tank properly, not threat multipliers. Those should ONLY exist for purposes of ensuring the tank can out-aggro DPS team members of the same lor around the same level, since they are constantly focusing on improving and min-maxing their damage numbers. That's EXACTLY why retail wow works the way it did and does now, because relying solely on a players ability to play perfectly and nearly godlike, and also relying on the rest of the players to allow the tank to perform his job as neatly as possible (lol), instead of focusing on killing the target as efficiently and FAST as possible, was never going to happen on a mass scale, which it never did and never has, as proven for 20 years now.

Threat is a system that exists for the purpose of having a mob's aggression directed at the player with the highest position on it's table. That's exactly where a class that's tanking wants to be at, at the top of the table, if possible at all times or if not asap due to other mechanics. There's a reason retail wow scaled all tank class threat modifiers to 300%, then to 500%, equally across all 3 tanking classes, then 4 tanking classes, then all current tanking classes. Because the only time threat really matters is when players are around the same levels, or at endgame levels. And at that point, a players SKILL should determine if they can tank or not, good plays, good calls, good reactions, anticipations, few mistakes, proper preparation and experience, a good team, etc... Not multipliers lol.

To your second point, yea I believe TWoW pretty much continues the trend of not being able to fix a trash design by Blizzard, perhaps even doing the opposite, creating more problems.

Thank you for sharing that post, it's an interesting read. Though it seems to me that the only real concern with class changes is paladin. Paladin is simply a problem in vanilla that no one has "been able to fix" for 20 years now. Let me be clear though, I am NOT advocating for drastic changes. Change prot paladin, vanilla prot paladin talents suck a$& and raiding too.

Sen8sei
Posts: 21

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Sen8sei » Fri Jan 13, 2023 11:45 pm

Kairion wrote:
Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:33 pm
Sen8sei wrote:
Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:22 pm
The threat points with Imp Thunder Clap are overkill for 4 targets, and that's also a reason why Warriors do not spec into the talent, because it has a target limit. So Paladin would always remain as the #1aoe tank, due to no target limit and due to their toolkit. Warriors just can't compete as it is now, nor can anyone else.

Theoretically speaking, if Thunder Clap's target limit was removed, maybe, as I also don't have the Paladin's numbers, could potentially out-aggro the Paladin. But that would still not make Warriors the best AoE tank, since they have no tools to survive nor sustain like Paladins do. The Warrior as an AoE tank and removing the target limit is as reckless as Challenging Shout, simply reckless in every way.

That's why I'm suggesting the change though. But I haven't explained that, true. The idea is to have the Warrior be able to deal true fashion AoE damage as other DPS classes, rolling AS a DPS class, not as a tank, and not in Defensive Stance.
your version of TClap alone is a tiny bit worse in terms of TPS than Consecration & Ret aura together. Considering you also have demo shout you would get more aoe TPS than a paladin, apply two aoe dmg debuffs to a target and even dodge more damage with piercing howl - only getting hit a little bit to sustain the rage costs.

This is massively overkill. Modern wow has tanks that hold threat by just existing. In Classic wow, having this on every tank would make the game much more boring.

And its just not necessary. Warrior have the options with gear and consumables to plug the hole in tanking large mobgroups. Many people just look at what other classes have and want the same thing for themselves, not realizing they have unique tools the other class is crying for too.

Should we give Paladin Shieldwall? No! and equally we shouldnt give infinite AoE threat to warrior
I don't understand why care enough about threat generation. It's the tank, that's exactly what should be happening. Multipliers should not determine if a tank is good or not at holding aggro. Yes, that's exactly why Blizzard did that change, all tanks EQUALLY scaled to 300% then 500% etc. They realized there was no point in expecting tank players to play at almost godlike levels just to keep up with levels of DPS. Instead, simply have the tank do his job, and fail at his job if he was not skilled enough to do it. Not something simply determined by multipliers.

"Many people just look at what other classes have and want the same thing for themselves, not realizing they have unique tools the other class is crying for too" That's exactly what people are asking for, for retail wow but they don't realize it. If I'm wrong about that, then why has no one been able to fix Paladin for 20 years in a vanilla environment, lol

Sen8sei
Posts: 21

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Sen8sei » Fri Jan 13, 2023 11:48 pm

Ravenstone wrote:
Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:43 pm
Sen8sei wrote:
Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:22 pm
The idea is to have the Warrior be able to deal true fashion AoE damage as other DPS classes, rolling AS a DPS class, not as a tank, and not in Defensive Stance.
From a DPS balance point of view, not every class needs to be able to do everything. Warriors and Rogues are top single target DPS. I get that it sucks there are some bits where Warriors and Rogues literally just sit by and wait for the fight to be over, but the majority of the time is Warriors and Rogues shining with their damage.

Thematically, I'd argue that shards of ice falling from the sky or a pillar of flames should do more than, I don't even know what Thunder Clap is, but it sounds like a loud noise at most.

Inadvertantly, your Thunder Clap makes Warrior tanks a lot better in an area they are traditionally weak in, pushing on the realms of Paladin tanking and basically making them redundant. Sustain doesn't play a part in raiding since it's not up to the Tank to sustain their health, and survivability you are on par if not more survivable than a Paladin with the extra health Warrior gear tends to have and the debuffs you apply to the mobs. Only when Ardent Defender kicks in can I see a Paladin being more survivable than the Warrior.
That's a fair point and I think the same way as well, each class should bring something unique to the table, or at least similar.

Well the setting is fantasy so I guess it can be considered a Nature-type damage since it's like electricity/thunder, idk

edit: I see both yours and Kairion's points, wanting each tank to tank differently, essentially. Thing is, there are NEVER enough tanks in any private server, so there's that. If changes are made to make all three tank classes be able to aoe any number of mobs somehow, without increasing damage ofc, would be a win-win I think.

Ravenstone
Posts: 66

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Ravenstone » Sat Jan 14, 2023 1:49 am

Sen8sei wrote:
Fri Jan 13, 2023 11:37 pm
To your second point, yea I believe TWoW pretty much continues the trend of not being able to fix a trash design by Blizzard, perhaps even doing the opposite, creating more problems.

Thank you for sharing that post, it's an interesting read. Though it seems to me that the only real concern with class changes is paladin. Paladin is simply a problem in vanilla that no one has "been able to fix" for 20 years now. Let me be clear though, I am NOT advocating for drastic changes. Change prot paladin, vanilla prot paladin talents suck a$& and raiding too.
There are other class discussions going on, particularly around Enhancement Shaman and their 'mediocrity' as Kairion so politely puts it. Paladin seems to be the only concern at the moment because of how overpowered they have become. TWoW has royally fucked that up and still has yet to fix it or even ackowledge the problem on the forums.

Regarding the threat, I'm not going to answer because honestly it seems the real problem is that you see threat as an annoyance to work around and something that seemingly shouldn't exist (please correct me if I'm wrong here), whilst I believe Kairion, and I certainly, both see it as a core part of the game and something that shouldn't be abandoned.

There are never going to be enough tanks because firstly people don't want to have the burden of that responsibility, and secondly most people are lazy/entitled rather than helping out the guy carry the group.

Kairion
Posts: 313

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Kairion » Sat Jan 14, 2023 8:58 am

what people often tend to forget, a DPS character is just as much in charge of managing threat as a tank is.

Trivializing threat for every tank is about equally "enhancing" the game to your characters automatically kicking spells. It would reward players for not bothering with a mechanic the game wants you to learn and master.

I love threat, its this cool mechanic of playing chicken with the tank and the mob. Sure the game gets pretty annoying if the dps die on every pull just because they don't learn, but thats what you win if you don't know how to play chicken.

And its not like imp. Righteous Fury / Defiance / No AoE limit thunderclap is actually needed. All these talents can be omitted in many cases if your group has a bit of discipline.

Imp. RF & Defiance exist if you want to tank in groups where that's not the case. For that purpose these talents are totally worth their point, but we shouldn't make threat obsolete just because players suck at the game

Players will not start tanking if the mechanics are made easier, in fact people who like the challenge will get bored and switch. But what would help is dps not being pricks towards inexperienced tanks and constantly ripping their threat out of malice or incompetence. No amount of bonusthreat prepares you for dps who use mocking blow in their rotation...

And to the whole paladin argument. If you really believe paladin tank is bad on Turtle, either you huff some massive copium or have not played one recently. The class is ridicusly strong and both AoE threat and single target threat are really good even without imp. righteous fury. After all. For any situation bar Raidbosses pala is the best tank

Sen8sei
Posts: 21

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Sen8sei » Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:28 pm

Ravenstone wrote:
Sat Jan 14, 2023 1:49 am
Sen8sei wrote:
Fri Jan 13, 2023 11:37 pm
To your second point, yea I believe TWoW pretty much continues the trend of not being able to fix a trash design by Blizzard, perhaps even doing the opposite, creating more problems.

Thank you for sharing that post, it's an interesting read. Though it seems to me that the only real concern with class changes is paladin. Paladin is simply a problem in vanilla that no one has "been able to fix" for 20 years now. Let me be clear though, I am NOT advocating for drastic changes. Change prot paladin, vanilla prot paladin talents suck a$& and raiding too.
There are other class discussions going on, particularly around Enhancement Shaman and their 'mediocrity' as Kairion so politely puts it. Paladin seems to be the only concern at the moment because of how overpowered they have become. TWoW has royally fucked that up and still has yet to fix it or even ackowledge the problem on the forums.

Regarding the threat, I'm not going to answer because honestly it seems the real problem is that you see threat as an annoyance to work around and something that seemingly shouldn't exist (please correct me if I'm wrong here), whilst I believe Kairion, and I certainly, both see it as a core part of the game and something that shouldn't be abandoned.

There are never going to be enough tanks because firstly people don't want to have the burden of that responsibility, and secondly most people are lazy/entitled rather than helping out the guy carry the group.
No, I don't see threat as an annoyance, it's a good game mechanic at a fundamental level. I've also never suggested it should not exist. Going back to the arguments being made here so far, it's basically been stated that Improved Righteous Fury is the only reason why paladins spec into the prot tree. That alone should speak volumes to how bad it is, because a multiplier carrying an entire tree is beyond idiotic, and if paladins are not going full prot, then why even acquire that talent in the first place.

If paladins are already the best tanks except for raidbosses, then who cares if Righteous Fury's baseline spell is multiplied up to 80% or 100% instead of 60%.

Sen8sei
Posts: 21

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Sen8sei » Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:29 pm

Kairion wrote:
Sat Jan 14, 2023 8:58 am
what people often tend to forget, a DPS character is just as much in charge of managing threat as a tank is.

Trivializing threat for every tank is about equally "enhancing" the game to your characters automatically kicking spells. It would reward players for not bothering with a mechanic the game wants you to learn and master.

I love threat, its this cool mechanic of playing chicken with the tank and the mob. Sure the game gets pretty annoying if the dps die on every pull just because they don't learn, but thats what you win if you don't know how to play chicken.

And its not like imp. Righteous Fury / Defiance / No AoE limit thunderclap is actually needed. All these talents can be omitted in many cases if your group has a bit of discipline.

Imp. RF & Defiance exist if you want to tank in groups where that's not the case. For that purpose these talents are totally worth their point, but we shouldn't make threat obsolete just because players suck at the game

Players will not start tanking if the mechanics are made easier, in fact people who like the challenge will get bored and switch. But what would help is dps not being pricks towards inexperienced tanks and constantly ripping their threat out of malice or incompetence. No amount of bonusthreat prepares you for dps who use mocking blow in their rotation...

And to the whole paladin argument. If you really believe paladin tank is bad on Turtle, either you huff some massive copium or have not played one recently. The class is ridicusly strong and both AoE threat and single target threat are really good even without imp. righteous fury. After all. For any situation bar Raidbosses pala is the best tank
If paladins are already the best tanks except for raidbosses, then who cares if Righteous Fury's baseline spell is multiplied up to 80% or 100% instead of 60%.

Post Reply