Fixing [Seal of the Cruasder] Leveling/High End Phase

[Unchallenged]

Hello,

It's me again!

As it stands, the seal portion remains untouched;

------------------------ SEAL NO CHANGES ------------------------

[Seal of The Crusader]
Fills the Paladin with the spirit of a crusader for 30 sec, granting 326 melee attack power. The Paladin also attacks 40% faster, but deals less damage with each attack. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time.

------------------------ JOTC REDESIGN CHANGED PALADIN WEP/GAMEPLAY ------------------------

The Judgement portion was altered;
Per TinyFin: https://discord.com/channels/4666224558 ... 1523486851

[Judgement of The Crusader]
Fills the Paladin with the spirit of a crusader for 30 sec, granting a higher chance to proc weapon effects than a normal attack. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time.

Max Rank =
30% higher chance to proc weapon effects than normal attack.
15% Higher For AoE Effects
6% Higher For CC effects.

This has multiple negative effects;

1. The Skill [Seal of The Crusader] (Lv 6) is a useless skill when used by new paladins.
2. Redesigned the Skill, makes it only usable by lv 37+ (Ravager) Most Lv60 With Use of End Game Weapons.
3. Changes Paladins' playstyle to pursue a weapon that Procs over anything else.
4. Change overall didn't increase the baseline damage/performance of a Ret Paladin.
5. It Changed Them To a Procadin-based class that overall no raid wants.

------------------------ JOTC REDESIGN CREATED A DEAD TALENT ------------------------

T2 | Heart of the Crusader]
Increases the melee attack bonus of your Seal of the Crusader and the Holy damage increase of your Judgement of the Crusader and Crusader Strike by 5%.

1. This is now a dead talent, unused.
2. It will be hard to redesign this t2 talent, without "potentially" breaking something else...

===================== HOW JOTC CAN BE FIXED =====================

Unchanged - [Seal of The Crusader]
Fills the Paladin with the spirit of a crusader for 30 sec, granting 326 melee attack power. The Paladin also attacks 40% faster, but deals less damage with each attack. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time.

Changed Skill [Judgement of The Crusader]
Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 10 sec, increasing damage taken by up to 1.5%. Your melee strikes will refresh the spell's duration. Only one Judgement per Paladin can be active at any one time.

Changed Talent [Heart of the Crusader]
Increases the melee attack power bonus of your Seal of the Crusader and the Damage bonus of your Judgement of the Crusader by .5%/1%/1.5%

This can have positive effects
1. This does not break the skill from lv 6+ and makes it usable.
2. This gives purpose to the Jotc which it didn't have prior, or with current change.
3. This would boost Ret group/raid benefit by providing a 1.5 -> 3% dmg increase
4. Overall this encourages Raids to Bring 2+ Rets, 1 JoW and 2 JoTC.


--> What Does Everyone Think?

[Wrathweaver]

I think they should just keep the original seal of the crusader with the holy damage increase as debuff on judgement.
Not being able to use seal of the crusader while leveling was devestating news for me and other pally players =(.
That rotation is useful and add a fun and useful mana saving rotation to the class and makes it easier to finish of mob and just judge the next if they dont die from the last judge.

I am really begging for them to just bring it back

If high lvl hardcore players want something else, it would be better to add a new spell.

[Kairion]

Seal of the Crusader was never the problem. Crusader strike infringing on its usecase is.

With SOR, judging Crusader was always a sensible choice. Revert the damn seal and make Crusader strike a proper unique spell that doesn't infringe on an often used part of the paladin toolkit.

The windfury/Flametongue abuses "holy hamstring" (read crusader strike) provides have nothing to do with classic paladin playstile anyway.

Just revert the seal to what it was and make crusader strike an actual spell thats more than just abusing gimmicks

[Wrathweaver]

Seal of the Crusader was never the problem. Crusader strike infringing on its usecase is.

With SOR, judging Crusader was always a sensible choice. Revert the damn seal and make Crusader strike a proper unique spell that doesn't infringe on an often used part of the paladin toolkit.

The windfury/Flametongue abuses "holy hamstring" (read crusader strike) provides have nothing to do with classic paladin playstile anyway.

Just revert the seal to what it was and make crusader strike an actual spell thats more than just abusing gimmicks

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Well i think first of all the strange and completely uneccesary changes to crusader seal and judgement should be reverted, lets just slow down on the demands.
At the very least the attack speed and debuff for increased holy damage must be kept for gameplay reasons, its used to finish of mobs that dont die and flee.

Paladins are not flexible, and the 40% attack speed on slow weapons to finish of mobs is a must, if they keep the speed and holy damage debuff judgement as it is (but keep the mojo pally proc thing).... i can live with it, not happily, but i will accept it begrudgingly.

If there are people who want paladins to play more like shamans, i suggest a new spell with a quest line from some troll mojo light convert in stormwind or something, but these design changes are just weird..

Crusader strike is not the best spell, but the tought of being left with only spamming crusader strike is a complete nightmare and almost keeps me up at night.
Currently paladin is not playable for me, removing this spell derailed and streamlined the core of the gameplay.

[Shamma]

Paladins are not flexible, and the 40% attack speed on slow weapons to finish of mobs is a must, if they keep the speed and holy damage debuff judgement as it is (but keep the mojo pally proc thing).... i can live with it, not happily, but i will accept it begrudgingly.[/color]

If there are people who want paladins to play more like shamans, i suggest a new spell with a quest line from some troll mojo light convert in stormwind or something, but these design changes are just weird..

Crusader strike is not the best spell, but the tought of being left with only spamming crusader strike is a complete nightmare and almost keeps me up at night.
Currently paladin is not playable for me, removing this spell derailed and streamlined the core of the gameplay.

I beg to differ. The new judgement of crusader is an improvement to the old one. The old one was terrible. The seal itself has NOT been changed.

If you want faster attack speed with the seal (for whatever reason, however weird) - you can still put that seal and have it. But remember to finish off mobs is not the reason seal of the crusader exists. Only u use it for that. The paladin has ways to finish off mobs and deal with runners. A few actually:
1. You have a stun on demand.
2. You have hammer of wrath.
You want faster attack speed - switch to a faster weapon - you can do it in combat.
3. Judgement of justice prevents mobs from fleeing.
4. Crusader strike can finish off mobs with very little HP left. Instant dmg, no need to wait for a weapon swing.

Having the old judgement of crusader debuff on normal mobs I found useless. The little increase in holy dmg - not worth it. U get more out of judging an extra righteousness or just going with the standards - judge wisdom or light to help sustain and leave combat high on both HP and mana.

The new judgement of crusader makes it useful to collect weapons for interesting effects starting in your 30s and 40s. The first 2 real interesting and very easily obtainable weapon (in your early 40s) - the ravager and the shatterer. You get great on demand AOE and on demand disarm. Those 2 alone - great things to have that the paladins have never had.

In your 50s you get on demand sprint and an extra stun with sprinter's sword and dark iron pulverizer.
You get to write macros and fill up your bags and bars with utility skills and weapons.
This is fun. The paladin has always been a boring class to play alone and lvl. We have a new side now.
Leave the new judgement of crusader as it is. It might even be TOO GOOD. Learn to use it.

[Kairion]

The new judgement effect gives paladin access to slows, spell interrupts, silences, extra stuns, strong aoe effects and the ability to have about 2-3 times the uptime of nightfall as any other class.

Paladin should not have access to all these tools. Lack of slows and interrupts specifically are one of paladins core design weaknesses. If Crusader strike wouldn't steal its spot, JotC would be an often used and integral spell for paladin.

I have to agree that the seal itself is not particularly strong in its 1.12.1 iteration, but why is its judgement then changed and not the seal effect. The seal gives you a 40% increased proc chance on non PPM based weapons.
Due to how its weapon speed change & PPM work, you get shortchanged by procs when using the seal.
Maybe we should just increase PPM when under the effect of SotC to ensure it actively generates an increase in proc frequency such as flurry.

But the judgement is massively buffing paladins PvP (a section that didn't need any help since its already a debate if holy strike was not too much) while forcing you in PvE to either be the nightfall slave (And push enhancement shamans or melee hunters away from that spot) or practice some "clever use of game mechanics".

Its change for the sake of change. There is no practical reasoning except "muh me like procc" why it has to exist.

[Shamma]

The new judgement effect gives paladin access to slows, spell interrupts, silences, extra stuns, strong aoe effects and the ability to have about 2-3 times the uptime of nightfall as any other class.

Paladin should not have access to all these tools. Lack of slows and interrupts specifically are one of paladins core design weaknesses. If Crusader strike wouldn't steal its spot, JotC would be an often used and integral spell for paladin.

Yeah. If anything the new judgement is TOO GOOD. Claiming the old way was better is just plain wrong. Skill cap, imagination and weapon greed for paladins just skyrocketed. If the change should be reverted - it is not because they are bad to play now - it is because they are TOO OP now.

And while it lasts, I am going to collect every weapon with proc I can get my hands on and tinker and have fun with it.

[Wrathweaver]

Removing seal of the Crusader is game changing, drastic and not really something that needs to be removed.
Leveling a Paladin is stale enough as it is, seal of the crusader is the only thing that gives it some gameplay variation.
I would just like to continue to be able to enjoy the slow and steady leveling experince that i now feel is gone.



Adding a new seal that add weapon procs would make everyone happy.
Add to existing vanilla content instead of changing or removing classic signature spells

[Shamma]

Removing seal of the Crusader is game changing, drastic and not really something that needs to be removed.
Leveling a Paladin is stale enough as it is, seal of the crusader is the only thing that gives it some gameplay variation.

Adding a new seal that add weapon procs would make everyone happy.
Add to existing vanilla content instead of changing or removing classic signature spells

Seal of the crusader was changed because of player complaining. So many ppl did not like it and did not see any use for it. Whether the new version is more liked or hated - debatable, but it is more engaging and offers more gameplay options - so much is clear.
And again - you seem to not understand how to get the most out of paladin. Classic paladin with the classic crusader seal/judgement combo is much more stale than turtle paladin. Turtle paladin is not exciting and thrilling - far from it - it is still stale, but definitely more engaging than the classic one.
Learn to play it. Think what u can achieve with the tools you have. They are better, even if different from classic.

[Wrathweaver]

Not all players have this "pwew pwew speed run to 60, max dps epic epic!!" mentality.
And thats the whole reason i love this server, since it respects gameplay and not trying to boost you or doing anything special, drastic or adding "cool epic dps weapon proc".

[Shamma]

And yet you were complaining paladin is stale?! Now u think it is too pew pew?!

[Geojak]

The judgmenrt doing nothing at low level is a major rework to how classic paladins used to be played and rightly critized.

The current situation with both the tooltip saying the old stuff, debuffs hidden, and jotc doing nothing causes havoc for newconers and non sixties.

This jotc makes no sense being available at Low lvl wehre weapon proccs don't even exist.

I honestly thing it's better to revert until the tooltip can be changed properly. Ppl are confused and some get angry

Why not make the debuff a reduce enemy attack power debuff Similiar to how warriors and druid tanks have demoralising shouts. Also keep the procc weapon effect.
This way atleast the effect is Similiar and giving a single target debuff.

Or better make jotc do a single weapon swing analog to stormstrike additional to procc effect.

[Wrathweaver]

The judgmenrt doing nothing at low level is a major rework to how classic paladins used to be played and rightly critized.

The current situation with both the tooltip saying the old stuff, debuffs hidden, and jotc doing nothing causes havoc for newconers and non sixties.

This jotc makes no sense being available at Low lvl wehre weapon proccs don't even exist.

I honestly thing it's better to revert until the tooltip can be changed properly. Ppl are confused and some get angry

Why not make the debuff a reduce enemy attack power debuff Similiar to how warriors and druid tanks have demoralising shouts. Also keep the procc weapon effect.
This way atleast the effect is Similiar and giving a single target debuff.

Or better make jotc do a single weapon swing analog to stormstrike additional to procc effect.

Personally i would prever making it a different spell that you get on higher level, since it is so different.
Simply removing it takes a lot away from the general gameplay when leveling.
It is important to keep at least the original judgement in some form thats playable for everyone, even if it has somewhat modified stats.

[Geojak]

if you keep the original jugment (meaning no acitve part besides a debuff, so its nort worth judging if the debuff is already up) then you will also always have a useless seal of the crusader, even if you make the seal itself better, if the judgment is not worth it

[Kairion]

Crusader strike is the poblem. Without it replicating the same debuff y'all would happily judge crusader all the time.

And with a first come first serve attitude, crusader strike would have to be adjusted rather than the baseline spell seal of the crusader

[Geojak]

Not at all is Cs the only problem.

Zaas original post thaz brought us jotc procc changes was actually about seal of the crusader being useless and only mentioned on the sides, that the judgement needs changes too, an active part like SoR or Soc or it can never be a active dmg seal.

[Kairion]

The active part is very niche in uses indeed, but its not never used. it is useful for skilling weapon skill, it does increase the frequency of certain procs such as nightfall etc.

Its a niche spell. But that doesn't mean its flat out useless. I am in principle also fine with improving sotcs effect to make it better, but the judgement aspect is an integral part of the seal, and that was made completely obsolete by crusader strike.

So the judgement of the crusader should just be adding holy damage and crusader strike should be the spell that should thread untested grounds, not jotc.

[Wrathweaver]

The active part is very niche in uses indeed, but its not never used. it is useful for skilling weapon skill, it does increase the frequency of certain procs such as nightfall etc.

Its a niche spell. But that doesn't mean its flat out useless. I am in principle also fine with improving sotcs effect to make it better, but the judgement aspect is an integral part of the seal, and that was made completely obsolete by crusader strike.

So the judgement of the crusader should just be adding holy damage and crusader strike should be the spell that should thread untested grounds, not jotc.

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