Seal of the Cruasder is now 100% dead. Let's rework it, and also fix the windfury question

[Kairion]

As funny as it is theorycrafting utb with perfect uptime, i think the new change was awful.

It removed a core ability many paladins use while leveling and in instances because we already got crusaderstrike in the past.

Crusader strike is a crutch for paladin to begin with. Its only used because of a bug turned feature - being able to proc wf.

Make crusaderstrike actually useful as a spell itself instead of changing the judgement of the crusader he made obsolete.

Give him 12 second cd for 100% weapon damage as holy for a percentage of base mana, revert sotc and have a useful paladin without changing core spells or being dependent on a shaman

The judgement and cs combo dethrone shaman as the proc king in classic. I can not grasp why the only thing that made one meme class raidworthy has to be brought to another.

Guaranteed 5/8 uptime on nightfall is nuts. And it actually pushes paladin back away from being useful on their own back into shitty debuff bot territory.

And can we talk about how bad it is that all rets do in raid is throw out holy flavored hamstring and just fish for wf?

[Geojak]

Paladins are now swiss multitool knives.
You gotta keep every procc weapon ingame. Need a silence? Slot in silent fang, jotc boom. Need a heal? Slot in hand of Edward jotc bang. Oh you want to disarm? I think there is a weapon for that. 15% dmg in raid, just slot nightfall.

IF you don't collect these items, the more the better, your jotc is useless.

It rly is rather wild. I will get farming

[Balake]

Overloaded unstoppable toolkit in pvp yet nightfall/shahram/darkspear buffbots in pve. This change will hurt ret paladin balance for a long time and sends them many steps behind instead of forward to a functional spec.

[Mekunekud]

https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=60413 Can't wait to see Paladins topping AoE DPS meters with the improved version of Ravager due to forced procs and consecrate. Ravager was already a tryhard 4+ mob thing with its base proc chance. Now its going to be outright broken on any cleave fight.
Can't wait to see PvP paladins with Dark Edge of Insanity disorientating people, hitting a 2k+ Holy Strike, then stunning them with HoJ, hitting 2x white attacks and a Holy Shock then redisorientating them for another Holy Strike in the same combo where most classes can't stop it, unless they are a mage or another paladin.
Can't wait to see the raid taking the Ret Paladin to cycle Nightfall and Annihilator/BRE so that the mob has 15% extra spell damage taken and an additional 2100 reduced armour.
Oh and not to mention that EVERY paladin can do these things. It's not spec reliant. So you could have 6 paladins, all judging SoTC with different effects ontop of one another since there's no limitation and it's a single off GCD skill so it wouldn't even reliably interfere with healing outside renewing the seal to do it anyway.

I'm just hoping its a silly oversight and the aim was just to allow non-damaging judgements to also have procs for weapon/trinket effects. That makes some degree of sense but just allowing SoTC to force procs when weapon procs have some insane utility that's balanced by their unreliability? Absolute madmen in both the best and worst ways.

[Geojak]

Ravager is bugged, there is a ticket on github, so you won't see pl topping anything with it

[Syphie]

So uh... I'm 37 and working on leveling up my paladin. I'm retribution. My normal rotation was Seal of the Crusader - Judgment - Seal of Command - Judgment (Repeat SoC as necessary).

I'm having trouble finding a good rotation now that does as much damage since Seal of the Crusader is busted. What should I be doing? Crusader Strike x5 (still visually broken) and Seal of Command?

[Ugoboom]

So uh... I'm 37 and working on leveling up my paladin. I'm retribution. My normal rotation was Seal of the Crusader - Judgment - Seal of Command - Judgment (Repeat SoC as necessary).

I'm having trouble finding a good rotation now that does as much damage since Seal of the Crusader is busted. What should I be doing? Crusader Strike x5 (still visually broken) and Seal of Command?

SoR is pretty strong baseline, likely better than command which will end up as overkill more often than not.

Only use cruasder strike if you have mana to spare. If you start killing too fast and ooming at that pace, keep up the pace but stop using CS and just back to SoR/SoComm with holy strikes.

[Geojak]

You are lvl 37, either judge wisdom, use SoR and crusader strike or use Soc rank 1 only. Always use holy strike rank 1

[Geojak]

so with the patch the seal of crausder effect was change too. the haste part now increaes by 5% per rank. so 30% at rank one and up to 60% yo max rank. BUT the dmg per hit is still reduced in the same manor. that means the real damag incrase is still the static bonus meele attackpower of 373 at max rank. its a flat dps incrase that doesnt scale with anything but maybe meele crit and meele hit. its shit.

i was hoping the dmg reecution would be capped at 30% and at max rank you would still get an effective of 30% haste bonus. this is not the case.

i dont understand why this was done by the devs. SoR gives effectively a 100% more proccs with its doubling effect while crusader seal now has 60% more proccs. so this cant be the idea behind it

i rly dont get it how seal of crusader and jugmenrt of crusader are supposed to work. is this alll just to make nightfall uptime higher? but eve nthen you would use SoR and just activate seal of crusader to judge then go back to SoR.

why change something in a way it doesnt fix/change anything?

[Wrathweaver]

I think changing the numbers of a skill in wow is fair game for "fixing classic" but i would not touch abilities that a class baseline has in terms of mechanics.

Players with almost 20years od built up expectations and experiences come to play classic. The base shell of the game should stay in tact. A different judgement of the crusader would be a substantial change for them. And frankly one that is not necessary.

1+

[Flameroller]

I am astonished almost nobody has noticed that the change to seal of the crusader is absolutely broken. Don't see how? Try using an Untamed Blade from Razorgore in BWL? 300 strength every 8 seconds with infinite uptime because judgment cooldown is 8 seconds with talents. Add on top of that your crusader enchant and you've got permanent +400 strength, or 880 attack power after kings buff.

As mentioned once in this thread, Bonereaver's Edge from Ragnaros gives permanent -2100 armor to all bosses and nightfall can be up 100% of the time as well, but that isn't the most dangerous proc. No, that belongs to Dark Edge of Insanity from C'thun. A 3 second disorient at will every 8 seconds and since it wasn't mentioned, The Unstoppable Force is also overpowered now with its stun being every 8 seconds. It being only 1 second makes it less OP, but there are other weapons with stun procs with longer durations. Only saving grace for those is they are all blue quality. I haven't even seen all the custom weapons with procs, so there could be an insanely powerful weapon out there.

My changes to Seal of the Crusader are much less powerful than some of the suggestions I've seen here. Instead of judgment of command proccing the weapon, it can only proc enchants and oils and it should start at 100% for all ranks to make it useful for low levels. This will need to be on the tooltip though. The seal should have the proc mechanics attached to it, such that each rank has a higher chance to proc weapons than normal at a rate high enough to make it better than seal of righteousness. Ranks shouldn't affect this new proc mechanic idea at all and only improve it's attack power bonus. I 100% agree with the idea of removing the damage reduction, but I don't think the AP needs to be reduced. It's fine as it is. Since all you'll be doing is auto attack and stop taking up debuff slots (no crusader strike necessary and judgment won't take a slot either. Weapon procs would obviously be the intended goal and are assumed wanted), you need that extra damage from the AP and it also helps scaling your holy strikes and windfury procs. I'm thinking doubling the chance for weapon effects to proc will make it better than righteousness and keep it from being op in pvp, while still remaining a legitimately good possibility there.

[Geojak]

You lose the dmg from judging seal of righeousbess. I doubt judging jotc even with UTB is better dps

[Kairion]

800 ap from utb + crusader (you wont get kings bonus since u use wf) is 57 dps. In an 8 second window that is 457 dmg and about as much as judging righteousness. Since SoR also is buffed beyound recognition.

UTB definitely is the most fun way to play but cant hold a candle to mcp spellret. So i dont see it as much of a problem rly. If someone wants to use it for big jotc + soc bursts its a lot of mana and fair by my book in pve.

The stun weapons you just mentioned pale in comparison to dark iron pulverizer a 8 second stun. And it took the community about 2 seconds to figure out that was broken. Thats why any cc / aoe procs have a massively lower chance to proc from jotc than stuff like destiny and hand of rag.

The big problem child remains nightfall that went from 2-3 ppm up to about 10ppm on paladins...

It also massively hinders ever adding cool proc weapons because they will have to account for jotc and be probably almost useless for other classes as a result.

[Geojak]

Hoensrly the best way to use new jotc is a holy healing buff.

You judge with darkspear to give your hole group 4% meele crit forc 20s, then you swap, back your healing weapon and shield and heal, after 18s or so you judge crusader again.

So you can become like a feral druid aura by giving up a tiny bit of gcd for healing.

[Wrathweaver]

Hoensrly the best way to use new jotc is a holy healing buff.

You judge with darkspear to give your hole group 4% meele crit forc 20s, then you swap, back your healing weapon and shield and heal, after 18s or so you judge crusader again.

So you can become like a feral druid aura by giving up a tiny bit of gcd for healing.

Crazy strange game mechanic...
Pallys running around full of proc weapons switching between them.
This is something you see on other private servers, but i didnt expect this stuff on turtle.

[Ugoboom]

Crazy strange game mechanic...
Pallys running around full of proc weapons switching between them.
This is something you see on other private servers, but i didnt expect this stuff on turtle.

agreed, and what has been done is nothing like I suggested in my OP, where the idea was just to proc weapon oils (which you'd only use when have no windfury)

I really think this force weapon proc thing should go to enh shamans instead. its far more thematic, they are already heavily support, and cant use the most degenerate weapons which are mostly swords. And then I stand by with my original idea for JotC and SotC