Class Combinations: Goblin Priests, Gnomes Paladins, Etc.

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Gladeshadow
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Class Combinations: Goblin Priests, Gnomes Paladins, Etc.

Post by Gladeshadow » Sat Nov 19, 2022 12:44 pm

We've got a few of these posts, but I thought I'd take a stab as well. I'll try to address a few different topics, like underplayed races, lore justification, and player enjoyment. While I'm sure some of these proposals may upset some and their own specific views, we already got over the introduction of other race and class combinations that the same people would have taken offense at as well. And none of these proposals are way out there, like suggestions of druid Forsaken (though I will get to that point!).

Starting off, goblins and gnomes are the 2 least played races according to Lexiebean's census data. While player choice will always be the end determiner, some of this disparity may be addressed by adding a class to each. Hunters were added to each of them and the two are mirror images thus far as classes go. This could remain the case or change. In any case, I personally think every race should have a healing class. By what classes and lore exists in game, I had the hardest time thinking of what might be appropriate for goblins. Druids are right out. Shamans were some Cataclysm drivel but could instead be justified as the rare "treehugger" goblins. But I think priests might be the most appropriate.
The Light is willing to come to the aid of any who believe in it and invoke it while shadow priests are appropriate enough as well in the same vein. One thing that is rather unfortunate with goblins is that they have become a comedic relief "hehe, money" cliche. But a priest could actually play with this. Consider televangelists and the real life "Prosperity Theology" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology that says faith will provide material wealth. I can easily enough imagine goblin priests getting their congregations into a fervor and asking them to dig deep. That way, much like some real pastors, they can use these funds to help purchase private jets and have lavish lifestyles that help them "spread the message". They could get some racial priest spells like "Testify!" or "Indulgence". Something in line with the flavor and theme.
Gnomes also lack a healer. It would be easy enough to give them priests and a couple appropriate racial spells. But I think it would be nice to finally differentiate them from goblins. As such, I suggest giving them paladins. A lore justification of this would be the Holdout Medics of Gnomeregan coming to view healing alone (spells of priests in game) as not having been adequate to save their city in its hour of need. In the meanwhile, the gnomes have learned from their dwarf and human paladin allies that healers can also be combatants. So they've taken to becoming combat medic warriors to better defend their people and retake their lost city.

While trolls are the 3rd least played race and dwarves the 4th, they already have 6 classes. Some moving onto tauren, the 5th least played race. They only have 4 classes. Notably, they lack a cloth class. As a very spiritual race, it would make sense for them to have priests, much like the also spiritual trolls have priests. With faith in the Earthmother and the Sun, they could get some relevant racials. I personally think it would be fun and in theme for them to get the same Sun's Embrace racial as high elves along with something else - the paralleling of priest racials isn't unique (desperate prayer) and the tauren are known for a heavy emphasis on the Sun in their faith.

Now for the potentially most controversial idea - not even a suggestion at this point, mostly just food for thought. Opening up the race combinations to possibilities very rarely or not seen in game. I've seen this suggestion before, particularly behind something like a paywall that supports the server. For example: 2000 turtle tokens to be a human druid. To be fair, we do see some combinations in the form of npcs that aren't playable in the game. And dwarf mages are based of off a mage who wasn't even a real mage! This is where everyone has their own idea, like me not wanting to see forsaken druids or shamans becoming a thing. But I''d be fine with troll druids and warlocks. Just examples. Some gets pretty nitty gritty.
I think a paywall and having to address a GM directly for such a character creation and go ahead would be fine. It's not pay to win. It's pay for cosmetics, which is an even lower tier potential offense than the pay for convenience things turtle tokens can already buy. My own suggestion is to keep paladins and shamans faction locked simply to maintain vanilla feel. Again, I think this could be something the GM team should discuss to keep the server feeling vanilla.

Mac
Posts: 336

Re: Class Combinations: Goblin Priests, Gnomes Paladins, Etc.

Post by Mac » Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:38 pm

Yeah, letting players pay a significant amount of real world money to make any race/class combination they want is the way to go. It helps support the server, it keeps the weird class combinations extremely rare, and it puts a definitive end to the requests for race/class combos. If people feel it's too pay to win (it isn't), then just don't give them any the racials and effectively make it pay to lose. Make it purely cosmetic.

Alrighty2
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Re: Class Combinations: Goblin Priests, Gnomes Paladins, Etc.

Post by Alrighty2 » Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:19 am

Orc priest when? having faith on the zug zug god

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Ugoboom
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Re: Class Combinations: Goblin Priests, Gnomes Paladins, Etc.

Post by Ugoboom » Wed Nov 23, 2022 3:07 am

I'm on board with anything that would get us nelf paladins. That's all I ever want man

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2904
Zaas - 60 High Elf Warrior
Saere - 60 Night Elf Priest
Jeannine - Leveling Undead Warlock
Cenaria - Leveling Resto Dryad

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Markuis
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Re: Class Combinations: Goblin Priests, Gnomes Paladins, Etc.

Post by Markuis » Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:18 am

How would it be implemented? Adding some trainers on places they shouldn't be (paladin trainer in darnassus/Aldrassil) would be a bit immersion breaking.

Mac
Posts: 336

Re: Class Combinations: Goblin Priests, Gnomes Paladins, Etc.

Post by Mac » Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:11 pm

Markuis wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:18 am
How would it be implemented? Adding some trainers on places they shouldn't be (paladin trainer in darnassus/Aldrassil) would be a bit immersion breaking.
How would a Paladin trainer in Darnassus break immersion? Darnassus is a part of the Alliance, which has paladins in it. A paladin trainer hanging out in Darnassus training questing knights isn't absurd in the least. There are night elf druid trainers in Stormwind, a human paladin trainer in Darnassus is hardly farfetched.

Not that you even need to add trainers, a Night Elf Paladin could just start in Northshire Valley. Would make sense since they're, you know, training to become a paladin and all.

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Markuis
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Re: Class Combinations: Goblin Priests, Gnomes Paladins, Etc.

Post by Markuis » Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:48 pm

Mac wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:11 pm
Well, yes and no. The better solution imo would be an area where that custom combination would start. Like some small area in Darkshore with demons and a small human/NE detachment for questing from 1 to 10. But it'd be a lot of work I guess. The easiest solution would be what you say. There is only going to be a handful of people with those combinations, so...

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Nightowl
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Re: Class Combinations: Goblin Priests, Gnomes Paladins, Etc.

Post by Nightowl » Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:12 pm

Gladeshadow wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 12:44 pm
Gnome Paladins

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Gladeshadow
Posts: 82

Re: Class Combinations: Goblin Priests, Gnomes Paladins, Etc.

Post by Gladeshadow » Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:34 pm

Ugoboom wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 3:07 am
I'm on board with anything that would get us nelf paladins. That's all I ever want man

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2904
That's exactly the kind of thing that makes sense. There are priests of the light (of Elune) and there ought to be, and are by all rights, warriors of the light (of Elune).

As for implementation, maybe just test it ought with some players that do pay with turtle tokens before making it a big thing. For instance, someone like a night elf warlock (and there are some corrupt night elves like Tyranis in Desolace, who was apparently supposed to become a satyr based on game datahttps://www.wowhead.com/classic/npc=582 ... anis-malem) might be forced to train in other race's area that tolerates warlocks.

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Mativh
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Re: Class Combinations: Goblin Priests, Gnomes Paladins, Etc.

Post by Mativh » Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:19 pm

Gladeshadow wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 12:44 pm
Now for the potentially most controversial idea - not even a suggestion at this point, mostly just food for thought.
That is the least controversial suggestion.

In the reply below I'll expand on that idea.

Regarding adding new classes to races;

What are the playable races in WoW, a humanoid with this or that appearance/name/place?
No, it is people with their unique way of being, culture and history. They are a collective of humanoids shaped by their environment and experience.
The race is what they are, and from it stems class, which is what they do.
One is tied to the other,m; the classes which a race can be is yet another defining characteristic of that collective of humanoids, and this characteristic embodies part of their history and identity.
They are defined not only by what they are and do, but also by what they are not and not do.

Class concepts; I'll use an an example the Paladins and Holy Priests, that have been designed in WoW to fit the lore of human culture specifically. Human religion of the Holy Light is not the same as the Night Elf religion of Elune. Dwarves and High Elves have learned about the Holy Light from Humans. In Warcraft lore, Night elves had only female priestesses of Elune, the Priest class Night Elves got in WoW is an inacurate standardization. Should this be extended further? Would it improve the vanilla experience? I don't think so. The Paladins of the Night Elves were huntress-priestesses like Tyrande, not what the Paladin in WoW right now. Could you adapt the Paladin to not deal with the human religion but with Elune? Possibly yes, but it would redesign the class completely.

And then there are some new combinations could make sense lore-wise even more than some that already exist, for example Dwarf Shamans (the standardized orcish one being elemental based like the wildhammer dwarf shamans) make more sense than Gnome Warlocks, Human Hunters make more sense than some races wearing plate, Undead Paladins make more sense than many class specs that have been standardized for all.

Also some races-class combinations don't make sense lore-wise, unless you bend twist and stretch it to the point where either the race or the class stop being what they are, which shouldn't be done only because less people play as a certain race, in real life there is not the same amount of all races either.
It isn't 100 black and white though, one player might consider it alright while the other doesn't. For example I wouldn't have added Orc Mages unless Ogres joined the Horde, or wouldn't add Troll Druids (see the suggestion below) and Goblin Priests, but I'd add Undead Paladins or Dwarf Shamans, with lore adequate class changes though.
Because of this the suggestion is so relevant.

As mentioned above, entire races have learned a class, for example humans learned to be mages from high elves, and high elves learned about the holy light from humans.
That shouldn't mean that all races should learn all classe from each other, especially not these standardized races that are in WoW with maybe one flavorful racial on a cooldown if lucky instead of the class/spec being entirely adapted to the lore of the race, but that then would be opposed because of fear of balance issues and of course it is quite a big task to do.
Last edited by Mativh on Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:32 pm, edited 5 times in total.
All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

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Mativh
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Re: Class Combinations: Goblin Priests, Gnomes Paladins, Etc.

Post by Mativh » Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:53 pm

Your idea of allowing more race-class combination, but only to a limited amount of individuals, is a good one.
I imagine it like this;


An individual of a race can be raised by an allied race, and learn their ways, while not being in contact with the lore and culture of his/her race.
So example:
You want to be a Troll Druid.
So...
You reach max level doing the Turtle challenge with 3 characters that are the same race, lets say tauren — or a similar in game achievement that isn't reached easily by everyone.
(Or you make a bigger donation to Turtle WoW)
Now you are well versed in the customs and culture of Taurens including the classes they can be, and you can make a new tauren character, choose one of the classes that race can be, for example druid.
And now because of this special condition that was fulfilled (either the 3 turtle challenge max level characters of that race, or a special donation to turtle wow), when you make your level 1 Tauren Druid, you can summon your turtle pet, talk to it and choose your racial background (another horde race that isn't tauren).
You choose, let's say, that you are a Troll orphan that was raised in a Tauren village.
Your appearance transforms into a Troll, your race now says you are a Troll, your racials... do you have tauren racials, or you unlearn them and learn the troll ones.. that could be up to a debate (nature vs nurture), regardless;
Now you are a Troll Druid.
the choice has to be made at level 1 and is irreversible.
No need to add lore-bending content or any new NPCs, you are starting at the Tauren area, you learn at the local druid trainers.
At most there could be some dialogue or altered trainer text for you that mentiones your race and that it is not usual, it is an exception however cimrcumstances led to this because you are learning the Tauren ways for growing up with them.
Also, this way, no need for overhauling an entire races lore to allow more combinations.

This is like with PvP, there were extensive debates, arguments, complex creative suggestions trying to please everyone while making sense... warmode solved it simply fairly and effectively.
Last edited by Mativh on Thu Nov 24, 2022 12:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

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Markuis
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Re: Class Combinations: Goblin Priests, Gnomes Paladins, Etc.

Post by Markuis » Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:58 pm

I've realized human and undead druids could be a thing. Even gnome druids. Ah, disgusting.

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Gladeshadow
Posts: 82

Re: Class Combinations: Goblin Priests, Gnomes Paladins, Etc.

Post by Gladeshadow » Wed Nov 23, 2022 7:51 pm

Markuis wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:58 pm
I've realized human and undead druids could be a thing. Even gnome druids. Ah, disgusting.
I addressed that in the original post. The decision to allow some combinations would be up to the devs.

Schwa
Posts: 10

Re: Class Combinations: Goblin Priests, Gnomes Paladins, Etc.

Post by Schwa » Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:33 am

if turtle was to do an overhaul on the class system. i think they should get rid of class choice at time of character creation. and they should implement class allignment as part of the reputation system.

instead of making a race 'possible' there should be default reputations with each of the classes when you make your character.
want to be an orc druid? expect to pick a lot of herbs.
want to be an undead hunter? have to skin a lot of animals.
every class should have a resource, and acquiring that resource should unlock the class.

'locks' should have a debuff which creates a soulgem from critters. and it should cost a rat corpse to get.

but what about lore?

lore doesnt matter in a roleplaying game. in a roleplaying game, a character can be some obscure combination of subpar race and class for the flavor. the players in a roleplaying game dont need to conform to the game world, the world needs to conform to them. this doesnt mean the world must be deferent to player choice. it means that the world needs to recognise player choice.
alliance not being able to make shamen makes no sense. the class of shamen is about value and attitudes and an oral tradition. maybe there arent alliance trainers, but there not being shamen of the cenarian circle in darkshore who will teach the interested their ways is strange. the npcs could be horde, and it would narratively work.

this is cause the story of the world is different from the stories of characters and factions. the lore isnt any of those either. the lore was that baine went north with his tauren and most joined the horde. most isnt all, and they also could have had a change in attitude and mind. point abstractly is that the lore reason is arbitrary and basicly doesnt matter. what matters is whether the implementation is immersive and plausible.

as for priests, you could have missions and churches which wish to guide lost sheep to the light. that isnt the problem. the problem is thinking that there should only be set race class combination, and that they should be set at character creation.

why not have gnome druids? instead of cat form you get rat form. and instead of bear you get... idk gator form?
a gnome turned into a rat is thematically appropriate, and there is a long thematic image of wizzards and pet rats. turns out they were gnome druids all along.

they dont need to be connected to the wilds like malfurian... a gnome druid could know insect swarm because he got insects in his book once and found it distressing. the support isnt from out in the real world wit hthe prosperity gospel. the support needs to come from within the world. people are against non canon combination but this bring up a question about the origins of the classes. why can cromie be both a dragon and a gnome but there cant be gnome druids? is the magic of the individuals based on their races or their magical training?

why cant tauren be warlocks? why would someone be incapable of becoming evil? how would that emerge at the scale of a race?

to me, it is fine to make the combinations rare through discouragement. but for every cringe experiance like a human namer yiffer and playing a druid, there is intrigueing potential roleplay.

no one expects the gnome branch of the cenarian circle. few expect an undead member of the scarlet crusade, 'lorderon didnt fall, and im not blind'

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