Elevating content to Vanilla-level immersion (example: Hunter traps vs Rogue Poisons), which Retail has been erasing

[Mativh]

In vanilla WoW we have Hunter ammunition, Hunter pet training, Shaman totems in the bag, Rogues vanish requiring flash powder, Rogue poisons being a class profession, weapons having skill level, class trainers etc.
Many details that make the gameplay feel more immersive, grounded and meaningful.
Most of these things have been removed in retail WoW, these little things add up and create the unique vanilla WoW experience.

There are few exceptions though, that aren't on the immersion level of vanilla wow, but could be, for example the Hunter Traps:
They are ment to be physical objects constructed and deployed by the Hunter, yet the traps abilities behave as if the Hunter was conjuring them with magic.
Here are some examples of similar abilities right now in game and how the traps could be:

Shaman Totems;
In order to cast any totem spell, the Shaman must be carrying in the bag a Earth/Fire/Water/Air Totem as appropriate for the totem spell they wish to cast. Which makes sense since it is a physical object.

Rogue Vanish;
Requires the flash powder item, 1 is spent every time vanish ability is used. The idea is that in order to vanish mid-combat, the rogue doesn't do so for no reason like in retail wow, but throws the flash powder to create a smoke cloud around him.

Rogue Poisons;
Rogues make their own poisons using a Poisons skill. Poison ingredients are purchased at Shady Dealers or reagent vendors, found in junkboxes obtained through Pickpocketing, or gathered with Herbalism. Once you have the Poisons skill, you have to level it like a profession. You have a skill level which you can increase by making poisons. Unlike professions, you do not need to purchase the ability to skill up beyond the 75, 150 and 225 limits. Instead your current skill limit is simply five times your current level. There is no poisons trainer; instead you learn new poisons from the Rogue trainer, subject to meeting the level and skill prerequisites. Poisons do not count towards your two-profession limit, despite its similarities to other professions.

Hunter ammunition;
In retail WoW there isn't such thing, the arrows appear in your hand when you decide to shoot with a bow, but they don't exist otherwise. In vanilla WoW they are tangible items that are in the ammo pouch and are spent according to how many times the Hunter shoots.

Hunter Pets;
Unlike the simply summoned demons from the twisting nether by the warlock, or spirits of animals manifesting to aid the shaman, the hunter pets are animals in the world can get tamed, the hunter can learn abilities from them by observing the animal perform it, then the hunter can teach these abilities to other pets. Then there is pet loyalty, increased by feeding the pet. This is greatly simplified in Retail WoW.

And there are many more examples, I love these things about early WoW.

There are things that are having these vanillesque details, then there are other things, like the traps, that don't.
But in retail WoW nothing does, Activision-Blizzard has been gradually erasing them, and also added countless things of the Activision-level immersion, like 'heroic throw' for warriors, that is a ranged attack, the warrior appears to be throwing a weapon at the enemy, but is it the weapon he was holding and it left him disarmed and he can pick it up afterwards, or was the warrior carrying it in his inventory? No, it just magically appeared when the ability was used and that's it...
That is how everything is becoming in newer WoW, and the things that weren't like that in early WoW have been gradually erased.
So I think since Turtle WoW is a vanilla server continuing on the path laid out by the early developers, could do the opposite of what Retail has done;
Instead of slowly but surely getting rid of all the immersive rpg aspects of the game like the examples listed above, Turtle WoW could "vanillify" gradually things, for example the Hunter traps.
In fact the custom content has been vanillifying further the game already. Turtle WoWs WoW has more vanilla content in it than original vanilla WoW had, so it also makes sense to apply it on some of the original content.

The Traps could require, if not class quests and a class profession, at least an adequate item in the inventory in order to be used.
Another example would be crossbows. Guns got a separate ammunition, bullets, and so perhaps crossbows could get bolts instead of using arrows.

If you've noticed other things feel free to mention them. Of course it is a game so I'd emphasize that the immersion level should remain on the level of things mentioned here, and not go to the absurd complexity, but also not be like Retail WoW, where absurd simplicity and incoherence reigns.

[Markuis]

But that would be an indirect nerf to hunters? It's already tedious to carry ammo (on stacks of 200!) and pet food, profession mats, quest items, maybe some situational gear, some loot to sell on the vendor, some more that can make it on the AH...

[Mac]

The Vanilla level of immersion is already set by Vanilla. What you're describing is changing Vanilla to fit your personal level of immersion.

But that would be an indirect nerf to hunters? It's already tedious to carry ammo (on stacks of 200!) and pet food, profession mats, quest items, maybe some situational gear, some loot to sell on the vendor, some more that can make it on the AH...

Correct.

[Mativh]

But that would be an indirect nerf to hunters? It's already tedious to carry ammo (on stacks of 200!) and pet food, profession mats, quest items, maybe some situational gear, some loot to sell on the vendor, some more that can make it on the AH...

The Hunter has ammo and pet food, and other classes have many different class-only items required for various abilities.
The rest you've mentioned is universal.
If you prefer to deal ranged damage without ammunition, you can be a spellcaster shooting magical projectiles (or shoot magic from wands), where the mental incantation stemming from the knowledge of the corresponding school of magic is ment to be your "ammo" (mana is the resource used to perform the act of shooting). But an archer needs arrows, it's that simple. And a mage needs rune of portals to open a portal, the warlock needs soulshards etc.
And an archer with a pet needs to earn that pets loyalty by feeding it, because it isn't enslaved like the warlocks demon.
And the Hunters traps aren't a spell conjured with the forces of this or that school of magic, but an item the hunter uses.
The same way a totem is an item a shaman uses, and requires a totem item for it.
A druid doesn't require to carry roots or seeds in his bag because the ability roots is supposed to call on roots outdoors that already are supposed to exist in the ground, but the hunters trap isn't.
There are many more examples of abilities requiring items when it makes sense, and others not if it doesn't.
The traps is one of the few abilities where the same level of coherence used for other abilities doesn't apply right now.
Whether the max stack of ammo is too low is a separate issue, that could be adjusted.
Having to get the items for the traps could be compensated with slightly decreased mana cost of the trap abilities, which makes sense if the trap is prepared to be deploy-ready beforehand.

[Mativh]

The Vanilla level of immersion is already set by Vanilla. What you're describing is changing Vanilla to fit your personal level of immersion.

Exactly; the vanilla level of immersion is already set.
I have described precisely that in this post.
What is that level, compared to retail wow?
You can answer that by seeing the immersive aspects of vanilla that have been eroded over time by Activision.
The rogue poisons, for example, have been brought down to the level of hunter traps.
In retail WoW both are now simple abilities that make no sense. In retail you click the trap ability and a trap appears, click the poison ability and poison appears on the weapon out of nowhere, while in vanilla.. see the brief description of immersive vanilla wow rogue poisons in the post.
So Activision had these two examples:
Poisons - a more immersive/coherent ability
Traps - a less immersive/coherent ability
And what they did is downgrading Poisons to the level of immersion of Traps.
And I propose to do the opposite, we have:
Poisons - a more immersive/coherent ability
Traps - a less immersive/coherent ability
So, since Turtle WoW is continuing to develop WoW in the vanilla level of immersion, instead of downgrading immersion like Activision did, I propose elevating the Traps to the immersive level of Poisons (or at least a little bit more, with Traps requiring to be constructed beforehand and stored in the inventory, or requiring corresponding items to deploy).
And gradually this logic applied where it is neccesary.
I've explained it to you here:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4850&start=20
And now even further, even though you've been repeatedly not engaging with me in a honest discussion. I don't believe that you don't understand what I'm saying at this point.

[Mac]

Exactly; the vanilla level of immersion is already set.
I have described precisely that in this post.
What is that level, compared to retail wow?
You can answer that by seeing the immersive aspects of vanilla that have been eroded over time by Activision.
The rogue poisons, for example, have been brought down to the level of hunter traps.
In retail WoW both are now simple abilities that make no sense. In retail you click the trap ability and a trap appears, click the poison ability and poison appears on the weapon out of nowhere, while in vanilla.. see the brief description of immersive vanilla wow rogue poisons in the post.
So Activision had these two examples:
Poisons - a more immersive/coherent ability
Traps - a less immersive/coherent ability
And what they did is downgrading Poisons to the level of immersion of Traps.
And I propose to do the opposite, we have:
Poisons - a more immersive/coherent ability
Traps - a less immersive/coherent ability
So, since Turtle WoW is continuing to develop WoW in the vanilla level of immersion, instead of downgrading immersion like Activision did? I propose elevating instead the Traps to the immersive level of Poisons (or at least a little bit more, with Traps requiring to be constructed beforehand and stored in the inventory, or requiring corresponding items to deploy).
I don't believe that you don't understand what I'm saying at this point.

In Vanilla WoW you don't need any items/reagents to create a trap. Changing that doesn't make the game more Vanilla, it makes the game less Vanilla.

[Snigery]

They are ment to be physical objects constructed and deployed by the Hunter, yet the traps abilities behave as if the Hunter was conjuring them with magic.
Here are some examples of similar abilities right now in game and how the traps could be:

Don't say it...

The Traps could require, if not class quests and a class profession, at least an adequate item in the inventory in order to be used.

Noooooooo!

If you're a hunter and you think "I wish I had something else to carry around" you're playing wrong. I spec Herb/Alch on my hunter, I have all Traveler's Backpacks and almost max bank with all Traveler's Backpacks (16 slot), it still is not enough space for potions, food, quest items, etc. as others have said.

I also don't quite understand your reverse-reasoning from what Retail has removed as to how Vanilla should be improved? From what I know also about the era of gaming at the time, a lot of early RPG's were more so emulating or deconstructing TTRPG mechanics more so. I think to that end, Vanilla emulated as you stated, quite sufficiently while still feeling balanced and varied. But seriously, don't add trap ammo, and enough of the bullet variety too, this is not the way to go.

[Shamma]

Maybe also make the traps reagents? And while we are at it make those different reagents for the different traps. And also pls make them either non-stackable or at most stack to 5. To counter the inventory problem created by this, we could also introduce a "trap-pouch". A special bag that only allows you to carry traps, but has say 18 slots.

Fun times!

[Akarui]

But shaman has only 4 totems in bag all time. Make reagents for totems too :) let him buy tons of timber. Casters - should have small bag because they are weak, Plate armor used - small bag because they already has many weight by plate. Druid - should loose all bags and clothes when use any form , Rogues - has a chance to disable invis by noise from big bags . Hunter - should feed or pay for food for stable master. U want realistic game? U don`t want to play that after

[Mativh]

But shaman has only 4 totems in bag all time. Make reagents for totems too :) let him buy tons of timber. Casters - should have small bag because they are weak, Plate armor used - small bag because they already has many weight by plate. Druid - should loose all bags and clothes when use any form , Rogues - has a chance to disable invis by noise from big bags . Hunter - should feed or pay for food for stable master. U want realistic game? U don`t want to play that after

The shaman gets the totems from class-only quests, they are already made, so no need for timber. The shaman has the totems and uses them.
So it already makes sense.
The Hunter doesn't have traps, yet they appear on the ground when the trap ability is used.
It doesn't make sense, it could though, just like the shamans totems do.

Although your suggestions sound interesting, I'd like such level of immersion, I'm not advocating for it because it'd be beyond the current level of immersion, and you know I'm not.
Your attempt to exaggerate to the absurd in order to discredit my suggestion has failed.
So I'll repeat what I've ended the post with:
Of course it is a game so I'd emphasize that the immersion level should remain on the level of things mentioned here, and not go to the absurd complexity, but also not be like Retail WoW, where absurd simplicity and incoherence reigns.

I want a game where hunter traps are just as tangible/realistic as shaman totems and many other abilities of classes.
It's obvious that if shamans didn't require totem items, and I suggested it, you'd have react the same way as to this, and if hunter traps required an item by basic, then you'd not want it removed and considered it to be an adequate level of realism.. it's really just opposing for the sake of opposing.

[Akarui]

But shaman has only 4 totems in bag all time. Make reagents for totems too :) let him buy tons of timber. Casters - should have small bag because they are weak, Plate armor used - small bag because they already has many weight by plate. Druid - should loose all bags and clothes when use any form , Rogues - has a chance to disable invis by noise from big bags . Hunter - should feed or pay for food for stable master. U want realistic game? U don`t want to play that after

The shaman gets the totems from class-only quests, there are already made, so no need for timber. The shaman has the totems and uses them.
So it already makes sense.
The Hunter doesn't have traps, yet they appear on the ground when the trap ability is used.
It doesn't make sense, it could though, just like the shamans totems do.

Your attempt to exaggerate to the absurd in order to discredit my suggestion has failed.
So I'll just repeat what I've ended the post with:
Of course it is a game so I'd emphasize that the immersion level should remain on the level of things mentioned here, and not go to the absurd complexity, but also not be like Retail WoW, where absurd simplicity and incoherence reigns.

I want a game where hunter traps are just as tangible/realistic as shaman totems and many other abilities of classes.
It's obvious that if shamans didn't require totem items, and I suggested, you'd have react the same way, and if hunter traps required an item by basic, then you'd not want it removed and considered it to be an adequate level of realism.. it's really just opposing for the sake of opposing.

good. give for the hunters a quest for traps, pet food and ammos. i will glade to have only one formal arrow for each type, one compound feed, bullet, trap, instead 10+ stacks of arrows and stack of meat before each dungeon.
when i played for shaman i was need onlt 5 places in bag for totems ant ankhs. For hunter i need all one bag for arrows + 1-2 places for food. btw - arrows is not cheap.
Totaly absurd suggestion. But its funny how u defend that

[Mativh]

good. give for the hunters a quest for traps, pet food and ammos. i will glade to have only one formal arrow, one compound feed, bullet, trap instead 10+ stacks of arrows and stack of meat before each dungeon

It isn't perfect, it should not be in the inventory while it is on the ground, and if its destroyed you should have to be able to repair it or craft a new one. But at least it's something compared to the traps, you own that totem and thats why you can use the ability.
It's not the best example, I'd want it to be either bought premade or crsftable from adequate materials, it'd make more sense to be a permanent item to reuse than totems that get destroyed.
Not everything is on the same level of immersion, I'd rank (simplified) some of the mentioned examples as this (the higher number the less immersive/grounded):

1 - hunter ammo, rogue poisons
2 - hunter pets, warlock soulshards
3 - shaman totems
4 - hunter traps <— this is the level of immersion retail wow has been bringing down everything else.
And I dare to suggest that Turtle WoW should do the opposite, and brings things up to levels of immersion found in vanilla that stopped existing in retail, the traps at least to the level of totems. And as a response you propose bring other things down on lower immersion level, to be more like retail wow, that is very unlikely to happen on as Turtle WoW focuses on preserving the immersion level of vanilla WoW, elevating some of the retail-level immersion content to vanilla is compatible with that path.

[Akarui]

good. give for the hunters a quest for traps, pet food and ammos. i will glade to have only one formal arrow, one compound feed, bullet, trap instead 10+ stacks of arrows and stack of meat before each dungeon

It isn't perfect, it should not be in the inventory while it is on the ground, and if its destroyed you should have to be able to repair it or craft a new one. But at least it's something compared to the traps, you own that totem and thats why you can use the ability.
It's not the best example, I'd want it to be either bought premade or crsftable from adequate materials, it'd make more sense to be a permanent item to reuse than totems that get destroyed.
Not everything is on the same level of immersion, I'd rank (simplified) some of the mentioned examples as this (the higher number the less immersive/grounded):

1 - hunter ammo, rogue poisons
2 - hunter pets, warlock soulshards
3 - shaman totems
4 - hunter traps <— this is the level of immersion retail wow has been bringing down everything else.
And I dare to suggest that Turtle WoW should do the opposite, and brings things up to levels of immersion found in vanilla that stopped existing in retail, the traps at least to the level of totems. And as a response you propose bring other things down on lower immersion level, to be more like retail wow, that is very unlikely to happen on as Turtle WoW focuses on preserving the immersion level of vanilla WoW, elevating some of the retail-level immersion content to vanilla is compatible with that path.

hunter ammo + food for pet spend 1 bag and some space in other bags. so
1 - rogues should have one bag only for poisons. And rogues shouldn't be able to use their abilities if they hasnt any poison. just for fun, for immersion
2 - same for warlocks soulshard. Only one bag for carrying soul shard for normal using spells or some penalty for dmg, speed cast etc. And time by time and after demon death warlock have to feed demon by soul shards ) or demon wont be summoned
3 - shaman totems , one bag for timber , and only by using good timber and only from this bag totems will have good effects. Placing totems also should be not instant, 0.5 sec cast
its okay when all classes has similar troubles of your "immersion".
rly idea is good and interestin about "immersion"
Paladins and priests - for buffs should have censer, bibly and cross, and for each buff use one holy water. lets Holy bag for holy things for this classes. And their buffs not instant, they have to read a prayer
Druids - tones of cones, berries, branches, sticks, moss, fur, wool for their druid stuffs
Warriors - let them tones of sharpeners, and let them sharpen their weapon after each mob.
what about mages? magic is realy hard and exhausting work. remember medive . Mages should take a magic bath in towns periodicaly. Immersions

[Balake]

Also let's have a stamina bar, you have to roleplay walk when you get tired. And also hunger and thirst bars for immersion, you can get sick from cold weather if you wear light clothes or overheat in deserts if you have heavy armor.

"Immersion" is meaningless, you are playing a video game! Enjoy the video game for what it is.

[Kairion]

Don't forget mages having to releave themselves after every 5. pull since they drink so much

[Ishilu]

Bolts are a good idea, I always wondered why crossbows and bows use the same ammunition. Thumbs up.

Trap reagents woul be immersive too, but hunters already sacrifice a lot of bag space for ammo. That's the one big con I see for that.

However, depending on how this would be implemented, it would also open possibilities for more individual traps, e.g. longer durations, secondary effects or even (reasonable) changes of the mechanics when different or higher quality mats are used, like nature instead of fire damage or such. This might even pave the way for yet another survival rework after which I can play something like my tbc trap hunter, only with badassery cranked from 11 to 12 .

"Trap kits" could be an item that can be produced and sold by engineers.

As always, when new stuff is being added, let's not get carried away and make it too powerful, though. These changes should be about adding flavour to the game and not pandering to some power fantasies.

[Akarui]

no problem if:
- we will have only one trap in inventory, as a totem for some school of magic
- we have to do an interesting class quest for first basic trap
- we can find in dungeons, craft other trap with additional passive bonuses. "+X sec to duration" "+X % to fire dmg" "+X y to range" "-X% chance to being resisted" "-X sec to CD" etc
Interesting realisation - is good. its a fun. but it wont happend

[Snigery]

You know what, I change my mind. I would be okay with traps requiring a reagent from inventory, or just holding an object like totems IF we could then cast them freely in combat without needing to FD hack. Sounds like the perfect compromise to me.