1h axes for rogue and range weapon spec

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Bloodline1x9
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1h axes for rogue and range weapon spec

Post by Bloodline1x9 » Sat Nov 12, 2022 3:29 pm

1. The first thing what I propose it's plain and simple: available 1h axes. It's more than surprising how an orc or dwarf rog can't use this kind of weapon... If someone thinks why rogues can't use axes, then most likely the answer will be "they are too heavy". But maces/hammers are even heavier.

It would also be good to have a talent there replace Trowing Weapon Spec, what better remove or lower down.
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UPD: I suggest to make the rogues get the opportunity to use axes when taking the talent in the combat spec. That is, it will be written in the talent and unlock axes after that.

2. The second thing is range weapon spec. if you've ever played the true rogue-game "Thief" you know that he often uses a bow, almost as a secondary weapon.
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In Heroes M&M 5 Assassins also use a crossbow with poison.
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Range Weapon Specialisation: you can use poison on bow or crossbow

Plus addtional combo finisher that works as scatter-shot
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100% weapon dmg and 1-5 sec disorient depends on combo points. 30 second cooldown.
Last edited by Bloodline1x9 on Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:58 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Gantulga
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Re: 1h axes for rogue and range weapon spec

Post by Gantulga » Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:57 pm

Letting rogues wield axes is really a no-brainer that would be a net improvement to the game. It'd open better gearing options without providing any power creep at all.

As for throwing weapons, I'd rather have the whole thing reworked so they're actually on par with other ranged weapons and there are many epic options available, and the quantity is gone or reworked into some kind of durability.
The deadly throw custom skill should be usable with any weapon and reworked to actually deal damage and scale with all eviscerate talents and gear bonuses. That or it should just behave similar to the TBC version with the slow and all. The skill isn't even worth putting on your bars right now as it does the damage of a normal shot for 5 combo points.

Kairion
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Re: 1h axes for rogue and range weapon spec

Post by Kairion » Sat Nov 12, 2022 5:55 pm

Axes why not?

Thats why not: https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=17068

While i generally think weapon restrictions are unnecessarily stingy, it would instantly catapult axe to be the new meta and outclass all other weapon types because of the slow swingspeed of deathbringer.

While i don't dislike the idea, it requires some loot adjustments and since rogue has quite a good selection of melee weapons at his disposal, i think that shouldnt have high priority

As for the ranged stuff, i like the idea of applying poison and would even suggest making the chance to apply it a bit higher as his ranged attackspeed is garbage. But i think having access to a range CC spell doesn't really fit with the rogue class. If its a slow instead, i'd be fine with it.

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Sinrek
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Re: 1h axes for rogue and range weapon spec

Post by Sinrek » Sat Nov 12, 2022 7:27 pm

If you took your time and actually played the Thief series then you as nobody else should be aware that the game's main idea was that you either never alert your enemies or at least get out with no witnesses and mind you, Garrett never used anything that even resembled axe. Forget about it. You wanna wield an axe - go warrior.

I would agree on those questionable "improvements" that the team has gone for in the talent tree… this topic, however, isn't a place for such theorycraft though. Something else should be done, that's true.
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Gantulga
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Re: 1h axes for rogue and range weapon spec

Post by Gantulga » Sat Nov 12, 2022 8:01 pm

Kairion wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 5:55 pm
Axes why not?

Thats why not: https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=17068

While i generally think weapon restrictions are unnecessarily stingy, it would instantly catapult axe to be the new meta and outclass all other weapon types because of the slow swingspeed of deathbringer.

While i don't dislike the idea, it requires some loot adjustments and since rogue has quite a good selection of melee weapons at his disposal, i think that shouldnt have high priority

As for the ranged stuff, i like the idea of applying poison and would even suggest making the chance to apply it a bit higher as his ranged attackspeed is garbage. But i think having access to a range CC spell doesn't really fit with the rogue class. If its a slow instead, i'd be fine with it.
This axe is worse for PvP than MSA which everybody can get and likewise worse for raw DPS than any of the available high end swords. Onyxia loot isn't "meta".

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Gladeshadow
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Re: 1h axes for rogue and range weapon spec

Post by Gladeshadow » Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:04 pm

Kairion wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 5:55 pm
Axes why not?

Thats why not: https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=17068

While i generally think weapon restrictions are unnecessarily stingy, it would instantly catapult axe to be the new meta and outclass all other weapon types because of the slow swingspeed of deathbringer.

While i don't dislike the idea, it requires some loot adjustments and since rogue has quite a good selection of melee weapons at his disposal, i think that shouldnt have high priority

As for the ranged stuff, i like the idea of applying poison and would even suggest making the chance to apply it a bit higher as his ranged attackspeed is garbage. But i think having access to a range CC spell doesn't really fit with the rogue class. If its a slow instead, i'd be fine with it.
This axe is also used by fury warriors. And there are better axes and other 1h weapons that exist, so it's not as though this item alone would for some reason mean rogues are too powerful.

Kairion
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Re: 1h axes for rogue and range weapon spec

Post by Kairion » Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:04 pm

The point i was trying to make with the axe is that it has a extremely slow weapon speed. Rogues sinister strikes scales exceptionally well with slow weapons. This is why i regard giving them access to axes as problematic. For warrior this is not nearly as much of an issue because he is mostly relegated to non weapon based attacks (Bloodlust) or Weapon swing based ones (Heroic/Cleave). One Whirlwind all 10 seconds is much less problematic in that regard

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Gantulga
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Re: 1h axes for rogue and range weapon spec

Post by Gantulga » Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:12 pm

Rogues are the polar opposite of "problematic" on this server and as I said, that weapon is far from being the best for either PvP or PvE.
I'd say that that this axe is much more problematic in the hands of a paladin due to the spammable holy strike they got on this server.

If it's an actual issue then it can simply be given "warrior" tag.

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Bloodline1x9
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Re: 1h axes for rogue and range weapon spec

Post by Bloodline1x9 » Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:52 am

Sinrek wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 7:27 pm
If you took your time and actually played the Thief series then you as nobody else should be aware that the game's main idea was that you either never alert your enemies or at least get out with no witnesses and mind you, Garrett never used anything that even resembled axe. Forget about it. You wanna wield an axe - go warrior.
The argument about "Thief" was related to the second part of the topic. That was about range weapon.
It must be remembered that the World of Warcraft is wider than "Thief" concerning rogue melee fights. If Garret fighting style is Sublet spec, then Axe it's Combar spec.

But you should not perceive an ax as something not suitable for a robber at all. This is perhaps the most popular weapon of highway rogues - robbers. It's a cheap weapon. It is even weighs lighter than a hammer and a sword. Because it requires little metal. Every farmer has it at home. And it does not require significant fencing skills.
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We know many stories when some people are driving through the forest and bandits run out and attack the caravan.
Those robbers do not need daggers or batons at that moment - they do not sneak up, but attack in a pack. And these bandits are also rogues. Combat rogues I think.
So what I propose is to make the rogues get the opportunity to use axes when taking the talent in the combat branch. That is, it will be written in the talent and unlock axes after that.

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Sinrek
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Re: 1h axes for rogue and range weapon spec

Post by Sinrek » Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:35 pm

Bloodline1x9 wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:52 am
Sinrek wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 7:27 pm
If you took your time and actually played the Thief series then you as nobody else should be aware that the game's main idea was that you either never alert your enemies or at least get out with no witnesses and mind you, Garrett never used anything that even resembled axe. Forget about it. You wanna wield an axe - go warrior.
The argument about "Thief" was related to the second part of the topic. That was about range weapon.
It must be remembered that the World of Warcraft is wider than "Thief" concerning rogue melee fights. If Garret fighting style is Sublet spec, then Axe it's Combar spec.

But you should not perceive an ax as something not suitable for a robber at all. This is perhaps the most popular weapon of highway rogues - robbers. It's a cheap weapon. It is even weighs lighter than a hammer and a sword. Because it requires little metal. Every farmer has it at home. And it does not require significant fencing skills.
Image
We know many stories when some people are driving through the forest and bandits run out and attack the caravan.
Those robbers do not need daggers or batons at that moment - they do not sneak up, but attack in a pack. And these bandits are also rogues. Combat rogues I think.
So what I propose is to make the rogues get the opportunity to use axes when taking the talent in the combat branch. That is, it will be written in the talent and unlock axes after that.
Garrett's main and characteristic trait was infiltrating. Not killing. There's even a challenge embedded into the last game where you kill or knock out nobody. So bringing an argument for a rogue to use an axe … let's put it mildly - is misplaced.

Any axe requires much more metal than a dagger. There's no point in even arguing about that. Get your maths together.

Robbers … well, that's your regular pleb in the bushes with an axe in hand. Which means even a hunter could fit the description. They do not use stealth, so that also can be excluded with no credit.
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Gladeshadow
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Re: 1h axes for rogue and range weapon spec

Post by Gladeshadow » Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:35 pm

Robbers … well, that's your regular pleb in the bushes with an axe in hand. Which means even a hunter could fit the description. They do not use stealth, so that also can be excluded with no credit.
If semantics is the issue, rogue is an even more general term than robber, which would justify rogues using axes. turtle_tongue
I see what you mean about, for example, a dedicated assassin using daggers rather than axes. But as for WoW, I think axes fit in well enough. Most 1 hand axes are a little more subtle than thunderfury, which rogues can also wield.

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Gantulga
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Re: 1h axes for rogue and range weapon spec

Post by Gantulga » Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:29 am

We have warriors using goddamn staves which is infinitely more ridiculous.

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Ugoboom
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Re: 1h axes for rogue and range weapon spec

Post by Ugoboom » Wed Nov 23, 2022 3:26 am

Kairion wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:04 pm
The point i was trying to make with the axe is that it has a extremely slow weapon speed. Rogues sinister strikes scales exceptionally well with slow weapons. This is why i regard giving them access to axes as problematic. For warrior this is not nearly as much of an issue because he is mostly relegated to non weapon based attacks (Bloodlust) or Weapon swing based ones (Heroic/Cleave). One Whirlwind all 10 seconds is much less problematic in that regard
lol did you forget that SS was nerfed with wep normalization? slow isnt that huge for it anymore

hemo is not normalized though. hemo 1 or 2x MSAs would be better than the ony axe though. your argument doesnt make any sense man.
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Kairion
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Re: 1h axes for rogue and range weapon spec

Post by Kairion » Wed Nov 23, 2022 7:34 am

Weapon speed normalisation is only taking into consideration the AP part of the equation. Skills that deal weapon damage still benefit from slower weapons. Particularly with WF also wanting slower weapons on classes with instant styles.

If you don't have quite exquisite gear the inferior basedamage of hemo can not make up for its better scaling. You would still end up in a Sinister spec even with MSAs

And the much broader point, the game does not only exist in fully decked out t3 with your dream weapon setup. There are a number of extremely potent axes readily available in earlier content. Pick up Deepwood axe and its hard to find better weapons pre-raid.

Additionally, the original request is to add a weapon mastery. Assuming Axes get also added to expertise, the mastery CAN NOT be worse than mace mastery.

And by the way flurry axe does exist which procs mainhand swings when it trigers. Considering you have S&D i consider that also quite a potent choice

Sure for T3 rogues with Gressil or MSA this ain't making a difference but for lower content its relevant.

But outside of this its stronger/irrelevant argument, Its a class change for changes sake. Its a wonky choice flavor wise as axes are some of the most clunky weapons to wield, They only get maces because they resemble the battons thieves use to knock people out in the first place. You are disrupting gear distribution, make Vis'kag a itemdrop that is inferior to Deathbringer for absolutely every class that can wield it. possibly dumb down the itemisation pre-raid for exactly what benefit?

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Gantulga
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Re: 1h axes for rogue and range weapon spec

Post by Gantulga » Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:12 pm

I do agree that Vis'kag could be slower.

Also consider that sword itemization is HOT GARBAGE. There is no smooth progression and you're waiting for CTS/AQR while using a blue sword for ages (zeal, rend, ravenholdt) and then waiting for Gressil. Daggers on the other hand have many more options all over the place as well as much more gear with dagger weapon skill.
Adding more options for rogue is a good thing, especially since maces and fists are sadly crap.

Kairion
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Re: 1h axes for rogue and range weapon spec

Post by Kairion » Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:46 pm

Gantulga wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:12 pm
I do agree that Vis'kag could be slower.

Also consider that sword itemization is HOT GARBAGE. There is no smooth progression and you're waiting for CTS/AQR while using a blue sword for ages (zeal, rend, ravenholdt) and then waiting for Gressil. Daggers on the other hand have many more options all over the place as well as much more gear with dagger weapon skill.
Adding more options for rogue is a good thing, especially since maces and fists are sadly crap.
So is it fair to say, the issue we try to solve here is improve the quality and quantiy of weapons available to rogues in medium raid tiers?

I'd honestly much rather see more content added that can provide decent maces swords and especially fistweapons. Just giving rogues also access to Crul'shoruk and co does not make more high quality weapons drop, it just reshufles their distribution slightly more in rogues favor

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Gantulga
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Re: 1h axes for rogue and range weapon spec

Post by Gantulga » Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:08 pm

Allowing rogues to wield axes would open a new viable raiding option that isn't dagger or sword.

Melee gear itemization is 100% in warrior's favor and they have more options available while also going for "rogue" gear often so I don't see how that would be a bad thing.

I would also enjoy maces and fists becoming viable, with new options being available but that'd require much more work than simply letting rogues wield axes and adding an axe mastery talent. It's funny how basically 99% of main hand fists are too fast for rogue and clearly meant to be used by fury warriors yet are never used.

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Ugoboom
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Re: 1h axes for rogue and range weapon spec

Post by Ugoboom » Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:37 pm

yup agree the poor itemization issue is the real issue here, this is vanilla raiding's biggest problem.

stuff like the aq20 weapon are useless and could use a serious buff, like what the hell the aq20 set weapon is 51 dps..... for an exalted rep grind that you likely wont have completed until you are well into aq40 where you are up for 60dps weps... I can easily see a buff to the aq20 weps to 58 dps like bwl, and the set items also buffed for most classes. a few pieces are okay but most are complete hot garbage and never ever used.
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Gantulga
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Re: 1h axes for rogue and range weapon spec

Post by Gantulga » Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:55 pm

The AQ20 token quest could let you choose between a dagger and a good sword. There's a ton of daggers around already. The ring is embarrassing too.

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Jambiya
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Re: 1h axes for rogue and range weapon spec

Post by Jambiya » Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:26 pm

+1 for axes. +1 for bucklers

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