A More Humane Honor System

Zulnam
Posts: 22

A More Humane Honor System

Post by Zulnam » Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:18 pm

The old honor system borders on the abusive. I know, and met others who knew, people who back in the day got in serious trouble with their education or family life because of the ranking system (guy i knew failed his Bacalaureate cause he was grinding rank 14). The system itself, or more specifically it's decay system, strongly pushes the sunk cost falacy. Spend hours, sometimes more than 10, every day, doing the same thing, because you have already invested so much unrecoverable time that stopping would mean it was all for nothing.

Doesn't have to be this way. 18 years have passed since we first met the Honor system, and most of us are older and wiser. And it's time, i believe, to make a new ranking system. One that, while still demanding time invested, treats our time with respect and lets us choose to pursue it's goals at our own pace.

The plan would be to remove decay and brackets altogether, instead locking every rank behind a hard honor value, and at the same time make all titles usable as they are unlocked. This second part would also be a huge boon for roleplay and open the floodgates to military-style RP, as players can finally choose their IC rank to reflect their title (of course, will also mean there would be a lot of warlords and marshals, but frankly it is a small price that i, for one, am willing to pay).


The honor values for each rank that I propose are listed below, the number indicating the rank:

1: 100 Honor Points
2: 1,000 HP
3: 10,000 HP
4: 100,000 HP
5: 200,000 HP
6: 300,000 HP
7: 350,000 HP
8: 400,000 HP
9: 450,000 HP
10: 500,000 HP
11: 800,000 HP
12: 1,200,000 HP
13: 2,000,000 HP
14: 3,000,000 HP

To get to these numbers, I took what I believed would be an average estimate of honor gain, AV.

AV can take anywhere between 17 minutes (yeah, saw it here, on twow) to 4 hours (also here, on twow). But lets make our lives simple and throw an estimate of 30 minutes for which lets calculate the honor based on the winning side and say you get about 5,000 honor per won AV (sometimes can be more, sometimes less; again, taking an average to make the math easier to do).

Based on these values, I made a google spreadsheet to calculate how many AVs, played time and real time it would take for each rank. It can be found here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
Feel free to copy it and make your own estimates.

As you can see, on an average playtime of 4 hours per day, it would take about 236 days to get from rank 1 to rank 14. That's a lot, but even that is a huge leap in fairness as someone who only plays 4 hours a day could before only dream of reaching rank 14. Now, they actually have a chance, all they gotta do is keep to it. Slow and steady...

In conclusion, removing decay and the aformentioned brackets would open the pvp grind to more players and allow players to grind it at their own pace, be it half a year or two years, everyone would get a fighting chance!


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On Server Benefits


The system in place that needs to calculate ranking every week would be gone. I am not sure how the infrastructure of a 2004 wow server looks like, if there is another middleware running to make these calculations and keep tabs of who's where or if the server itself does it, but the load, big or small, would not be needed anymore, meaning increased performance and reduced infrastructure costs (again, don't know the values. maybe it's $0.01. still counts!)

In fact, the ranking calculations could be done instantly, similarly to how faction reputation is gained. With no more ranking and brackets, the need for a "once a week honor check" would be gone. This could be implemented at a later time, since ideally a change this large would be released in iterations. That's how i would do it, at least.

Thank you for reaching the end.

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Patadepalo
Posts: 50

Re: A More Humane Honor System

Post by Patadepalo » Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:27 pm

Agree with all .

Hope the Twow devs reworked vanilla honor system.

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Ugoboom
Posts: 119

Re: A More Humane Honor System

Post by Ugoboom » Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:44 pm

AV can take up to 9 hours on twow, seen that myself as well.

Big +1 to this suggestion in general, but the implementation is off. I really dont see the problem with the vanilla style of brackets and Ranking Points. Just the decay is the problem. Instead of honor, it should just be the curretn system adjusted for no decay, so that you get diminishing returns if you wish to do the grind too fast. With your system, there is no DR and that also encourages unhealthy play.
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Oonadruidqueen
Posts: 13

Re: A More Humane Honor System

Post by Oonadruidqueen » Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:51 pm

Yeah basically this ^

Some classes get a ton of value out of the PvP gear, especially the weapons. This would allow them to skip a lot of earlier raiding content through this gear.
I worry that without a little gating to prevent people from grinding too hard this would just become a new "mandatory" grind for several classes (Heavy air quotes here)
Which could create additional unhealthy gameplay.

Overall I agree with a change in this direction but I do have concerns with players doing unhealthy things to themselves in the name of minmax

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Imonobor
Posts: 61

Re: A More Humane Honor System

Post by Imonobor » Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:13 pm

+1 it's still insane, but a different type of insane.

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Dansch
Posts: 1

Re: A More Humane Honor System

Post by Dansch » Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:15 pm

in my opinion the 1.12 pvp system we know shouldn't be changed this drastically... r14 was never meant to be achieved by everybody, same like raiding naxxramas with all the needed consumes - there are things which will only be reached by a few and that's good. satisfied_turtle_head

one thing which would help though would be to just enable decay if you go >15hks, so people could stop for a period of time if RL hits again and continue if the time is right, this way (almost) no changes at the pvp system need to be done! (no decrease of decay, no increase of RP, no bigger brackets)

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Tobieski
Posts: 7

Re: A More Humane Honor System

Post by Tobieski » Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:58 am

I am agree that the honor system in 1.12 is requiring to avoid social life in order to succeed. But I am not agree with your proposal - to make a hard honor behind every rank, because the main thing that vanilla keeps player entertained is the farming. If there is a hard honor behind the brackets in lets say 1 month the PVP will die, because players will reach their goal in certain week and then they wont play BGs anymore -> no carrot on the stick.

I don't like the 1.12 honor system at all, because it is not competative, but instead time consuming. So a player who can be online and staying almost afk on a tower in AV have a higher rank than a player who can outplay him. But it is what it is in vanilla (people will argue me in here).

I like the idea of just remove the weekly decay if you have less than 15 HKs. So you can plan your live and at least have the possibility to take a break for a while.
Also I heard (read somewhere) that there are around 800 ghost rankers, so this increases the pool size and make the ranking easier. With the recent player base, maybe there are 2 options - increase this pool so it has the same impact as before, or maybe just reduce the Weekly decay to 10%, which will open more room for more players to reach top ranks.

I think it wont be fair to completely change the PVP ranking system right now, because those who spent 3 months of their live in the game to achieve this sweet R14 (or at least R13) will feel super bad, if it is possible to get from 0 to hero in 1 week.

Cheers

Zulnam
Posts: 22

Re: A More Humane Honor System

Post by Zulnam » Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:57 am

Ugoboom wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:44 pm
AV can take up to 9 hours on twow, seen that myself as well.

Big +1 to this suggestion in general, but the implementation is off. I really dont see the problem with the vanilla style of brackets and Ranking Points. Just the decay is the problem. Instead of honor, it should just be the curretn system adjusted for no decay, so that you get diminishing returns if you wish to do the grind too fast. With your system, there is no DR and that also encourages unhealthy play.
that might also work. personally i opted to suggest removing the brackets system since:

1) if there are brackets and bracket-required ranks you would still have to do 1 week every high rank of absurd gaming, to get into that bracket. perhaps not as bad on twow, but getting #1 standing for example, for r14, cannot be easy.
2) keeping the brackets system for standing without any other honor system benefit would be an unnecessary strain on the server and/or the infrastructure. but this is just speculation on my part and it could be a very small infra cost.

Alternatively, could add DR so that ranks are still calculated weekly and you can only jump 2 ranks in a week, making a very hard cap for DR.

i'm fine with keeping brackets too, it will be a bit rougher, but i guess people can plan their "sacrifice" week in advance while they casually reach it.

Geojak
Posts: 546

Re: A More Humane Honor System

Post by Geojak » Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:43 am

Keep the current honour brackets, don't abandon rankink points. Atelast a little bit a competition is healthy.

Let's investigate the current systems formulas and system. This will help when deciding what to adjust.

Currently you lose 20% of rp per week.
Lets do a calcularion with the current system. Let's assume we are having rank n and we trying to get rank n+1 with n>=3.

To get rank n we already have atleast (n-2) * 5000 ranking point
To get the next rank n+1 we need 5000 more points so (n-1) * 5000
We lose every week rp. The decay is 20% of our rp. So it's atleast
(n-2) * 1000

Now to brackets.
IF you are in bracket j (j=1,...8), you gain atleast 12000 - 1000 * (j-1) ranked points

We see both in decay and brackets this 1000. This is important. It means for each rank you gain you need to be another bracket higher. This relation is the driver of the insane grind needed.

If you want to just stay stable at your current rank n you must hold bracket:

12000 - 1000 * (j-1) = (n-2) * 1000
<--> 12 - j +1 = n - 2
<--> 15 - n = j (with n >= 3)
To illustrate, if you are rank n= 10 you need to be atelast in bracket 5 just to hold the rank.
For rank 14 you need to hold bracket 1.
This works also the way that, if you are below rank 10 and you consistently place in bracket 5 then you eventually reach rank 10 but will never reach rank 11.

A rank 13 player has atleast 55000 rp.
He loses every week atleast 11000 to decay. In bracket one he gets atleast 12000 points.
Thats just 1000 points per week profit. To reach 60000 rp. he would need 5 weeks of Consistent bracket 1.

Let's assume we set decay to 5% instead of 20% of rp but we also double the rp points needed for all ranks, that means he currently has 110.000 rp.
The same rank 13 player losses 5500 point to decay
He can make in bracket 1 now a profit of 6500 rp after decay.

First observation, that's is Enough to do 0 pvp in the next week and still not be lower in rp than before. Which is justifies after being in bracket 1.

Second observation, in order to get the needed 120.000 rp he just needs 2 weeks if he is consistently in bracket 1.

Third observarion, to just hold rank n constant he needs just be in bracket:
12000 - 1000 * (j-1) = (n-2) * 10000* 5%
j = 14-n/2
That means a, rank 14 player just need to be in bracket 7 to hold his, rank
For each rank you gain you just need half of another bracket to stay stable.

This also means to reach rank 14, it is theoretically enough to consistently be in bracket 7.

With the old system you needed a minimum of 12 weeks bracket 1 to reach rank 1 to rank 14. And you absolutely had to be bracket 1 for 4 weeks in a, row, to go from rank 13 to 14.

Let's assume someone with rank 3 exakt 10000 rp in my new system that also hits bracket 1 every week.

Week 0 rp 10000, rank 3
Week 1 rp 21500, rank 4
Week 2 rp 32425, rank 5
Week 3 rp 42803, rank 6
Week 4 rp 52663, rank 7
Week 5 rp 62030 rank 8
Week 6 rp 70928 rank 9
Week 7 rp 79382 rank 9
Week 8 rp 87413 rank 10
Week 9 rp 95042 rank 11
Week 10 rp 102290 rank 12
Week 11 rp 109175 rank 12
Weekc12 rp 115717 rank 13
Week 13 rp 121931 rank 14

We see that in the new system compared to the original system, the total time to reach rank 14 as fast as possible is almost the, same.
The speed at which we gain ranks is normalised, so its slower at first and tater at the end in the new syste.

it would take 422 weeks of bracket 7 to raeach rank 14 in the new system, a year has 52 weeks so that is more than 4 years, in bracket 6 its just 37 weeks already, less than a 3/4 of a year and bracket 6 is very casual with ur ghost rankers.
bracket 5 32 weeks. until breacket 1 the 14 weeks we saw above.

With the current system you will never reach rank 14 unless brackt 1, no matter how much time long term invested.

As, seen above the decay is a lot less, of a driving factor, you can even reach rank 14 if you just cosisnrely hit bracket of 7 or above.

All in all, I think by just changing 2 numbers in the current system, we can mostly, fix all issues it has.

Tldr:
Change decay from 20% to 5% rp
Double rp required per rank
--> turns it into a manageable slow cosistent grind even casuals can compelte with lots, of time if they cosisnrely hit bracket 6 for 37 weeks and at, the same time keeps the minium time needed to rank 14 with bracket 1 consistently almost the same.

so i checked vmangos code on github for less than half an hour (and i have zero prevous expereice with it)

its so easy. in the file HonorMgr.cpp its all there in one easy to adjust function

float HonorMaintenancer::CalculateRpDecay(float rpEarning, float rp)
{
float decay = floor((0.2f * rp) + 0.5f);
float delta = rpEarning - decay;

if (delta < 0)
delta = delta / 2;

if (delta < -2500)
delta = -2500;

return rp + delta;
}

this can be adjusted to implement my propsal above

float HonorMaintenancer::CalculateRpDecay(float rpEarning, float rp)
{
float decay = floor((0.05f * rp) + 0.5f); //decay rom 20% to 5%
float delta = rpEarning/2 - decay; //rpEarning halfes to simulate double bracket size

if (delta < 0)
delta = delta / 2;

if (delta < -2500)
delta = -2500;

return rp + delta;
}

these two tiny changes are impleneting 1:1 my proposal above. its analog
Last edited by Geojak on Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Zulnam
Posts: 22

Re: A More Humane Honor System

Post by Zulnam » Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:39 am

@Geojak, i challenge you to find any part of the wow pvp community, be it vanilla, classic, som or twow, that was or is healthy. The constant bickering over the weekly standings, the "pvp mafia" stigma...

But I digress.

I am not a fan of your proposal (due to reasons regarding brackets that i stated in above posts), but if it will make it easier to rank while also being an easier implementation (changing a few fixed numbers), then I'd rather see it happen over my proposal. The alternative would be what we have now, which is bad.

Hbl
Posts: 14

Re: A More Humane Honor System

Post by Hbl » Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:45 am

the problem with removing (or reducing) honordecay is that everyone and their dog will have r14 eventually. just afk in AV and wait it out.... wheather it be 5 or 10 month they are not playing anyhow...

I totally agree that ranking at higher ranks is painfull and not healthy, but it must be that way to make the high ranks actually mean something.
there already is the whole raiding, crafting, rep and dungeon gameplay for people who want it "at their pace" these give better gear anyhow when played with the same effort as pvp.
why does everyone think they are entiteld to have it "at their pace" for pvp as well?

the real issue with the vanilla pvp system is that AV gives bonushonor. that prevents real pvp in WSG and AB and makes the pvp grind a braindead pve experience which requires one only to log on an press the spacebar every 2min for just often enough in a specified time (with the current system) or for just long enough (with the no decay system).

if AV would give no bonushonor the people actually wanting to pvp and do the grind whould quickly boil down, making it manageable again to rank for the people who deserve it
Last edited by Hbl on Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Geojak
Posts: 546

Re: A More Humane Honor System

Post by Geojak » Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:20 pm

@zulman,changing a few hardcoded fixed numbers is doable effort.

Implementing a hole new pvp system is an immense task.

Its a compromise between realistic dev implementation and player wishes.

My suggestion solves and alleviates many issues, keeps the original system partly intact to both partially satisfy pply than don't want a compete rework and ppl that want it to be a slow grind like in tbc.

Of course a compromise doesn't makes everyone perfectly happy.
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Patadepalo
Posts: 50

Re: A More Humane Honor System

Post by Patadepalo » Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:48 pm

Just remove honor decay and let the people do any else.

Hbl
Posts: 14

Re: A More Humane Honor System

Post by Hbl » Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:50 pm

Patadepalo wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:48 pm
Just remove honor decay and let the people do any else.
please give me r14 gear for running into a wall in AV just often enough

Patadepalo
Posts: 50

Re: A More Humane Honor System

Post by Patadepalo » Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:02 pm

Its for people how dont have +5hours per day to play Twow..

I think we need more comfortable honor system. Less agresive .

Hbl
Posts: 14

Re: A More Humane Honor System

Post by Hbl » Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:16 pm

Patadepalo wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:02 pm
Its for people how dont have +5hours per day to play Twow..

I think we need more comfortable honor system. Less agresive .
easy fix, play pvp for fun and pve for gear.
accept that the high ranks are not for everyone, just like its intended to be

Zulnam
Posts: 22

Re: A More Humane Honor System

Post by Zulnam » Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:21 pm

Geojak wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:20 pm
@zulman,changing a few hardcoded fixed numbers is doable effort.

Implementing a hole new pvp system is an immense task.

Its a compromise between realistic dev implementation and player wishes.

My suggestion solves and alleviates many issues, keeps the original system partly intact to both partially satisfy pply than don't want a compete rework and ppl that want it to be a slow grind like in tbc.

Of course a compromise doesn't makes everyone perfectly happy.
Yeah, i agree, it would be easier to do. We will see what the team thinks. Coun Ironhoof mentioned in the discord that these numbers are on the client side, so it would still be challenging, but i think it is worth the effort.

Patadepalo
Posts: 50

Re: A More Humane Honor System

Post by Patadepalo » Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:15 pm

Hbl wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:16 pm
Patadepalo wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:02 pm
Its for people how dont have +5hours per day to play Twow..

I think we need more comfortable honor system. Less agresive .
easy fix, play pvp for fun and pve for gear.
accept that the high ranks are not for everyone, just like its intended to be

No fun if you dont have gear progession...

Hbl
Posts: 14

Re: A More Humane Honor System

Post by Hbl » Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:36 pm

Patadepalo wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:15 pm
Hbl wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:16 pm
Patadepalo wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:02 pm
Its for people how dont have +5hours per day to play Twow..

I think we need more comfortable honor system. Less agresive .
easy fix, play pvp for fun and pve for gear.
accept that the high ranks are not for everyone, just like its intended to be

No fun if you dont have gear progession...
now we come to the core of it. you want pvp gear with out competing with other players?
"nodecay" is just that. one has r14 faster, one slower. in the end everyone will have it.

Geojak
Posts: 546

Re: A More Humane Honor System

Post by Geojak » Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:46 pm

merged into post above at the end
Last edited by Geojak on Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:13 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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