Split hardcore and non-hardcore players

[Zekythos]

Im constantly running into people who are hardcore players and i cant group up with them, wich leads to alot of extra unessacery waiting for respawns and such. This also affects the interactions towards these people, i wish them the best but there is almost no point talking to them, because we cant help eachother anyways. because of the limiting interactions you can have, it seems almost pointless to mix these players.

In short, i would like it if hardcore and non-hardcore players where phased, separeted, split into two servers or whatever. idk what the right solution is but it is starting to get annoying.

How are people feeling about this and is something like this doable?

[Redmagejoe]

Never had any problems or even spared a thought to HC players and, in fact, I buff them or help them when I can. Hell I had a level 53 HC help me with an elite quest on my level 24 alt earlier today when no one else would come help.

There is absolutely 0 reason to arbitrarily segregate these players beyond the existing mechanical restrictions. It sounds more like they, for whatever reason, bother you and thus you feel we should alienate them when there is plenty of interaction you can have with them even with the restrictions.

[Magina]

As someone who only plays HC, I would very much like to be separated from softcores.
Without fail, the biggest danger in all my runs have been softcore players. It's just a fact of the matter that they typically play more recklessly, as death doesn't have any consequences for them.
My solution has always been to go somewhere else if there is one in the area I'm trying to quest or grind in, but with the massive population increase, that's getting harder and harder to do.

I highly doubt phasing is possible to do here, but a HC and non HC server would be ideal.

[Savionight]

I agree with Redmagejoe.

[Tygoro]

How about HC players who use LFT and bug it out! LOL

[Elonmusk]

I don’t get the point of even separating the two. It doesn’t make hardcore harder, it doesn’t prevent any abuse, and frankly there isn’t any abuse that can be done. Indeed, if one purposely decides he wants to play the hardcore challenge, that person clearly wishes for a more challenging experience so why would he actively try to make his experience less hardcore?

The separation makes no sense if you actually think it through.

[Redmagejoe]

I will absolutely fight tenaciously against any attempts to segregate the playerbase, and this idea is no exception. Rest assured, it will NOT happen.

[Toodarkpark]

Never had any problems or even spared a thought to HC players and, in fact, I buff them or help them when I can. Hell I had a level 53 HC help me with an elite quest on my level 24 alt earlier today when no one else would come help.

There is absolutely 0 reason to arbitrarily segregate these players beyond the existing mechanical restrictions. It sounds more like they, for whatever reason, bother you and thus you feel we should alienate them when there is plenty of interaction you can have with them even with the restrictions.

I think that was my hunter helping your mage on the border ashenvale/felwood.

Crazy

[Mac]

A separate Hardcore server would be a good thing, and the server’s population has grown to the point where it can support a split.

[Akalix]

We do not have any plans to be splitting servers, as it would cause a dramatic and noticeable decrease in the number of player interactions.

Fighting (and cooperating) for tags is a basic part of the game. If six people need it, you're still going to be fighting over it. You are able to talk and buff eachother, as well as help eachother kill enemies. Though many HC's will avoid you if you're in warmode, for their own safety.

If our growth continues at such a good rate, this may be something we have to consider in the future, however for now I think the odds are slim to none.

[Hannigan]

What exactly would happen to a hc player once he reaches 60? Stay on the hc server? Transfer to the sc server? There's more questions to your answer to an imo non-existing problem.

[Greatgrass]

i agree wholeheartedly. people have told me they're scared segregating the HC into a separate realm would "hurt the server population that is already small."
Well, that argument doesn't really hold any merit when these guys are playing in the most objectively antisocial way possible. People unable to group, unable to trade, unable to do anything except steal your mobs and spam and derail the chat with HC messages aren't a part of the population. They're already playing singleplayer, so they should do it somewhere else.
Many of them are on their hundredth attempt+, so they have no patience for politeness or social etiquette, and will steal mobs and quest objectives without a single consideration or word for the people around them because of the grind.

[Akalix]

i agree wholeheartedly. people have told me they're scared segregating the HC into a separate realm would "hurt the server population that is already small."
Well, that argument doesn't really hold any merit when these guys are playing in the most objectively antisocial way possible. People unable to group, unable to trade, unable to do anything except steal your mobs and spam and derail the chat with HC messages aren't a part of the population. They're already playing singleplayer, so they should do it somewhere else.
Many of them are on their hundredth attempt+, so they have no patience for politeness or social etiquette, and will steal mobs and quest objectives without a single consideration or word for the people around them because of the grind.

I recommend you try HC for a few levels. You'll find the experience is quite different than what you've described.

The <Still Alive> guild is extremely active and social, and HC players are able to trade, group, and play together. They are far from playing singleplayer, they're playing HC with other HCs, and able to interact with others not playing HC as well. Most HC's who are unwilling to cooperate with others are scarred from how often non-HC players will do things which threaten their lives (which happens unfortunately often).

HC's aren't single-player NPCs, it's a very vibrant and active community.

[Greatgrass]

I'm 60 now and so relieved to never have to deal with hardcore characters upsetting my quests that I will probably never level any alts, because it would mean having to deal with these antisocial HC guys again. Probably to a much greater degree than my first character, since the server has grown 5x since I started playing. I'm guessing the level 10 quests are being spammed by HC guys preventing normal people from playing as we speak.

[Greatgrass]

i agree wholeheartedly. people have told me they're scared segregating the HC into a separate realm would "hurt the server population that is already small."
Well, that argument doesn't really hold any merit when these guys are playing in the most objectively antisocial way possible. People unable to group, unable to trade, unable to do anything except steal your mobs and spam and derail the chat with HC messages aren't a part of the population. They're already playing singleplayer, so they should do it somewhere else.
Many of them are on their hundredth attempt+, so they have no patience for politeness or social etiquette, and will steal mobs and quest objectives without a single consideration or word for the people around them because of the grind.

I recommend you try HC for a few levels. You'll find the experience is quite different than what you've described.

The <Still Alive> guild is extremely active and social, and HC players are able to trade, group, and play together. They are far from playing singleplayer, they're playing HC with other HCs, and able to interact with others not playing HC as well. Most HC's who are unwilling to cooperate with others are scarred from how often non-HC players will do things which threaten their lives (which happens unfortunately often).

HC's aren't single-player NPCs, it's a very vibrant and active community.

They can have their vibrant community on a different realm. From the perspective of normal players, single-player NPC's is exactly what they are. They inherently can't be anything else due to the restrictions.

[Tenant]

I think that split is not a good idea. But I also think that hardcore restrictions are too harsh (just for clarity - never played HC myself and don't plan to).

[Archyy]

How about HC players who use LFT and bug it out! LOL

I made a suggestion about this since i am a HC player : viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3227 admins just looked over it forgot it... like.. "Yea is a good idea but we can't be bothered to implement it" , if you wish to promote that idea, go and post in that thread, dont let it die like admins would like to...

[Dannyp19921]

They should decrease the respawn time of quest objects imo, at least in the low level areas, as the server's population has increased a lot and there's too much waiting around for respawns. Other than that, I think the Hardcore-rules are fine for now.

[Akalix]

How about HC players who use LFT and bug it out! LOL

I made a suggestion about this since i am a HC player : viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3227 admins just looked over it forgot it... like.. "Yea is a good idea but we can't be bothered to implement it" , if you wish to promote that idea, go and post in that thread, dont let it die like admins would like to...

We don't "want suggestions to die" -- there's just a lot getting worked on each day, so insignificant things like LFT changes tend to fall to the wayside. I'll pass the suggestion along to the team, but do try to not assume the worst of us, we are trying our best to provide a great experience :)

[Phoenixphire]

If you moved HC players to another server you would kill most of the HC population plain and simple. Why? A big part of the reason I and I imagine a lot of HC players play HC is not only because we will love the experience of leveling HC, but also there is that light at the end of the tunnel. That light being hitting 60 and being about to play the game if we wish normally with the knowledge our character is immortal.

Now picture this, you hit 60 and you are excited, you look around.... there are 10 other 60s online on your "hArDcOrE SeVeR." You can't do a raid, you can't easily do a dungeon, your blood sweat and tears is basically now a character screen trophy. Terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE idea. Knowing that no matter how fun the journey is, your character will become near useless at 60 will demotivate a lot of people I think. Its like building a car for years that once its finished you can't even drive around and take for a spin, it'll just sit in your garage.

As a hardcore player. PLEASE don't do this, IDC about fighting for quest mobs, IDC about softcore players doing sketchy shit near me I am a hardcore player I can adapt and play on my feet. If you take away my ultimate goal to have my hardcore character become a level 60 that can go do level 60 things it will really kill the drive for me. Only way this could work would be letting the 60s transfer over and even then I think it would hurt the community overall. Just my opinion, not a personal attack against anyone, I am happy there is a discussion about it and love to see Twow staff commenting on it.

[Mac]

If you moved HC players to another server you would kill most of the HC population plain and simple. Why? A big part of the reason I and I imagine a lot of HC players play HC is not only because we will love the experience of leveling HC, but also there is that light at the end of the tunnel. That light being hitting 60 and being about to play the game if we wish normally with the knowledge our character is immortal.

Now picture this, you hit 60 and you are excited, you look around.... there are 10 other 60s online on your "hArDcOrE SeVeR." You can't do a raid, you can't easily do a dungeon, your blood sweat and tears is basically now a character screen trophy. Terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE idea. Knowing that no matter how fun the journey is, your character will become near useless at 60 will demotivate a lot of people I think. Its like building a car for years that once its finished you can't even drive around and take for a spin, it'll just sit in your garage.

As a hardcore player. PLEASE don't do this, IDC about fighting for quest mobs, IDC about softcore players doing sketchy shit near me I am a hardcore player I can adapt and play on my feet. If you take away my ultimate goal to have my hardcore character become a level 60 that can go do level 60 things it will really kill the drive for me. Only way this could work would be letting the 60s transfer over and even then I think it would hurt the community overall. Just my opinion, not a personal attack against anyone, I am happy there is a discussion about it and love to see Twow staff commenting on it.

The solution to that problem is that a level 60 hardcore would be transferred to the normal server once they hit 60.

[Greatgrass]

If you moved HC players to another server you would kill most of the HC population plain and simple. Why? A big part of the reason I and I imagine a lot of HC players play HC is not only because we will love the experience of leveling HC, but also there is that light at the end of the tunnel. That light being hitting 60 and being about to play the game if we wish normally with the knowledge our character is immortal.

Now picture this, you hit 60 and you are excited, you look around.... there are 10 other 60s online on your "hArDcOrE SeVeR." You can't do a raid, you can't easily do a dungeon, your blood sweat and tears is basically now a character screen trophy. Terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE idea. Knowing that no matter how fun the journey is, your character will become near useless at 60 will demotivate a lot of people I think. Its like building a car for years that once its finished you can't even drive around and take for a spin, it'll just sit in your garage.

As a hardcore player. PLEASE don't do this, IDC about fighting for quest mobs, IDC about softcore players doing sketchy shit near me I am a hardcore player I can adapt and play on my feet. If you take away my ultimate goal to have my hardcore character become a level 60 that can go do level 60 things it will really kill the drive for me. Only way this could work would be letting the 60s transfer over and even then I think it would hurt the community overall. Just my opinion, not a personal attack against anyone, I am happy there is a discussion about it and love to see Twow staff commenting on it.

The solution to that problem is that a level 60 hardcore would be transferred to the normal server once they hit 60.

this

[Redmagejoe]

Greatgrass, your general attitude towards HC players is the issue as I see it, not the HC players. It's the sort of outlook that could be applied to any different group doing things in a different way than you. Disparaging, dehumanizing, or otherwise labeling them a nuisance is not a server or a staff problem.

It's a you problem. As I said before, you're going to have to deal with it. It's not happening. They're not going to segregate these players and risk losing dozens if not hundreds of them to appease one slightly tilted person. The majority of people on the server, whether you like it or not, like the HC players being there and embrace that aspect of the community. They are not antisocial. You are.

[Greatgrass]

Greatgrass, your general attitude towards HC players is the issue as I see it, not the HC players. It's the sort of outlook that could be applied to any different group doing things in a different way than you. Disparaging, dehumanizing, or otherwise labeling them a nuisance is not a server or a staff problem.

It's a you problem. As I said before, you're going to have to deal with it. It's not happening. They're not going to segregate these players and risk losing dozens if not hundreds of them to appease one slightly tilted person. The majority of people on the server, whether you like it or not, like the HC players being there and embrace that aspect of the community. They are not antisocial. You are.

im not the one following people to steal quest mobs who cant do anything to stop me and cant invite me to group.

also for anyone interested, you can take away attention from them by typing in " .hcmessages 60 " into chat, it will automatically hide all the HC spam except 60's. there might be a better one that hides 60 too but that's the one i know.
they're literally not playing the game with us so they don't deserve attention from us.

[Proudwell]

I think that HC players should be able to play as HC, unhindered and not sorted into a separate box.
The issue I think is that while HC players can be perfectly social and interact/trade with other HC within ~5 levels(?), they split the community for a very large amount of the game in the effort to level to 60.
You get two different types of people competing for the same things. And though it may be exploited, I think a lot of issues could be fixed with regards to community animosity if HC players could group with other players within ~5 levels (or so?) of themselves, HC or not.

[Redmagejoe]

im not the one following people to steal quest mobs who cant do anything to stop me and cant invite me to group.

I guarantee absolutely not a single HC is doing this or has ever done this to you. Most HCs avoid non HCs like the plague, and this is some strawman nonsense.

[Greatgrass]

im not the one following people to steal quest mobs who cant do anything to stop me and cant invite me to group.

I guarantee absolutely not a single HC is doing this or has ever done this to you. Most HCs avoid non HCs like the plague, and this is some strawman nonsense.

Why wouldn't they? Why would they stop their hundreds of hours' long grind on my account? There's 2 others in this thread claiming this has happened to them, too. Do you think people would ask for them to be segregated for no reason at all?

[Redmagejoe]

Do I think any human being would ask that another human being be segregated for no reason at all ever?

Going by precedence? Yes.

It sounds like a better solution would be to give you your own server to play on since you've spoken about these players in the most unsympathetic, straight-up hostile terms. Can I ask that you be put on a separate server? I really don't want antisocial people like you on my realm, after all.

[Proudwell]

Do I think any human being would ask that another human being be segregated for no reason at all ever?

Going by precedence? Yes.

It sounds like a better solution would be to give you your own server to play on since you've spoken about these players in the most unsympathetic, straight-up hostile terms. Can I ask that you be put on a separate server? I really don't want antisocial people like you on my realm, after all.

When are you planning on dropping this btw?

[Citizenkane]

Greatgrass has made some excellent points. The whole "sense of community" argument gets the rug pulled out from under it as the very nature of hardcore mode is a self-alienating one. And I echo Mac's solution to the issue raised by Phoenixphire. If it isn't already obvious, I'm for segregation. I made a post in another thread describing the competition for mobs here.

With that being said, a community manager has given his take on the matter, and I respect the staffs' decision. Still, it doesn't mean that discussions are off the table. After all, there have been numerous instances where constructive discussions have led to meaningful change.

[Redmagejoe]

Constructive is the operative word, and denigrating the players in question does not qualify. Try to remember that these are other player in the same server and the same community, and that they deserve the same respect and consideration due anyone else.

[Phoenixphire]

Greatgrass has made some excellent points. The whole "sense of community" argument gets the rug pulled out from under it as the very nature of hardcore mode is a self-alienating one. And I echo Mac's solution to the issue raised by Phoenixphire. If it isn't already obvious, I'm for segregation. I made a post in another thread describing the competition for mobs here.

I respect where you are coming from but you guys are just not correct. HC is not self isolating. Some people do play it that way yes but it is not the majority in my experience. The Still Alive guild chat is very active and social. And there are CONSTANT HC dungeon runs going on and people meeting up for quests and to trade. This take keeps getting repeated and it just is very far from the truth and it seems like you folks just haven't played hardcore enough to see that which is perfectly fine. And again, while I see your point and I respect your opinion, please stop saying this cause it just is not correct for a large percentage of HC players. If anything they are self isolating from softcore players which is just the nature of the challenge, but for a majority of HC players it is not a "Single player experience." IN FACT, you are incentivized heavily to work with other HC players for getting crafting mats you don't have access to, doing hard quests without risking a death, and to of course do dungeons because the Turtlefinder is almost useless for HC.

If you wanna fix competition for mobs up spawn rates, if you wanna fix farming professions up spawn rates. This seems like a very easy fix to me.

[Sinrek]

Boosting up rates isn't an easy fix. It's more like a slow economy's death.

[Greatgrass]

Greatgrass has made some excellent points. The whole "sense of community" argument gets the rug pulled out from under it as the very nature of hardcore mode is a self-alienating one. And I echo Mac's solution to the issue raised by Phoenixphire. If it isn't already obvious, I'm for segregation. I made a post in another thread describing the competition for mobs here.

I respect where you are coming from but you guys are just not correct. HC is not self isolating. Some people do play it that way yes but it is not the majority in my experience. The Still Alive guild chat is very active and social. And there are CONSTANT HC dungeon runs going on and people meeting up for quests and to trade. This take keeps getting repeated and it just is very far from the truth and it seems like you folks just haven't played hardcore enough to see that which is perfectly fine. And again, while I see your point and I respect your opinion, please stop saying this cause it just is not correct for a large percentage of HC players. If anything they are self isolating from softcore players which is just the nature of the challenge, but for a majority of HC players it is not a "Single player experience." IN FACT, you are incentivized heavily to work with other HC players for getting crafting mats you don't have access to, doing hard quests without risking a death, and to of course do dungeons because the Turtlefinder is almost useless for HC.

If you wanna fix competition for mobs up spawn rates, if you wanna fix farming professions up spawn rates. This seems like a very easy fix to me.

hardcore players playing in a self-insulated bubble with themselves is irrelevant to the original point, which is they aren't a part of the wider community. your guild and hc dungeons would lose nothing if they were moved to a different realm.

[Akalix]

This entire thread has devolved into degrading and/or insulting HC players with strawman arguments, which is a bummer

We won't be splitting HC's into a separate server anytime soon. If you think it is impossible to interact with HC players as a non-HC, you're ignoring many of the game's social avenues. You can talk, you can coordinate, you can help eachother, you can buff eachother, and you can even be in a guild together. A HC is no different than a non-HC that you don't group with, the only exception being that they may be distrustful towards you due to this very sort of "fuck the HC's" mindset.

There are nearly 12,000 HC characters. They are a large and valuable part of the overall community, and segregating them would do little good for the server while causing many issues. Both realms would look much less populated, chats would be less active, we would need to dedicate more server resources (which with our recent growth, I'd prefer not to dedicate server resources towards this), people would be yanked from their guild and friends upon hitting 60 or forced to exist in a dead realm, any many more issues.

If further replies devolve into toxicity and strawmen again, I will be locking this topic and dishing out warnings as needed. As far as I am concerned, there's not much more to say on this matter, as while we appreciate the suggestion, we do not plan to implement it.

PS: If you feel a player, HC or not, is griefing you, feel free to report it