Lets talk Warmode and PvP.

Jongyi
Posts: 24

Re: Lets talk Warmode and PvP.

Post by Jongyi » Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:01 pm

Jesterjacks wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:47 pm
I would disagree with the mentality of "if you have warmode, you accept this."

If warmode is on, I'd be fine with fighting in pvp of my level. But instead I'm just ganked by lvl 60 characters. How is that fair or fun?
This

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Jarlson
Posts: 10

Re: Lets talk Warmode and PvP.

Post by Jarlson » Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:39 pm

if turtle wow would create a mirror server that is pvp and fresh however hardcore mode is disabled allowing normal wpvp encounters while also keeping cross faction dungeons and raids i think it would be a huge success. granted it would split the new players but it would allow what my friends and i want to do more freely and without stigma and would also invite a lot of pvp players to the server

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Gantulga
Posts: 32

Re: Lets talk Warmode and PvP.

Post by Gantulga » Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:25 am

I'll pitch in my PvP experience as a relatively new player (will hit 40 soon-ish) who's been playing with Warmode enabled since the beginning:

I've had a grand total of 3 PvP encounters:

1. Two level 19 twink rogues camping the elite orc castle at Redridge. This one wasn't even bad as I managed to get a couple kills since I'm not wearing junk myself.
I didn't mind the gank games but the rest of my group who wasn't flagged, just ragequit after one wipe and so I wasn't able to finish the quests.
This is one of the issue created by trying to segregate the playerbases, because by grouping with and supporting a flagged player, you're flagging yourself too. This creates a dissonance and conflict of interests while grouping. The server isn't big enough to recruit only PvP flagged players for your outdoor activities.

2. Some levels 60 riding around STV and killing lowbies while talking trash in world chat. Multiple victims called for reinforcements but nobody ever arrived.
From my experience of playing on many PvP servers over the years, when people kill lowbies, their intent is to provoke a fight and have actual competitors come. This doesn't seem to happen here and I'm confused as to why. Those 60's are happy oneshoting low levels and other 60's aren't interested in PvP to come and put up a fight despite people asking for help.
This is recreated again in the last scenario:

3. After weeks, I finally and for the first time find a PvP flagged player of own level! Excitedly I approach and attack him. He does not seem to fight back and just stands there until I kill him. I do not attack again or camp once he comes back, just letting him be.
He runs away and a few minutes later there's a geared level 60 coming from the same direction, killing me on sight, laughing and trying to camp (which I didn't let happen and just moved away as he wasted time).
This player obviously turned the Warmode on exclusively for the 30% EXP boost and does not want to engage in actual PvP.


The vast majority of players I see, are not flagged. Needless to say that the experience has been very underwhelming and I completely agree that slapping an EXP bonus there wasn't a wise move as it attracts people powerleveling alts and not people who want to PvP.
I would gladly part with the EXP bonus and have it changed into something tangible such as gaining some reputation with BGs while doing WPvP so you can at least buy some of that basic BG gear as you progress. No bonus whatsoever is fine too. I want to PvP for fun, not for perks.

Jesterjacks
Posts: 17

Re: Lets talk Warmode and PvP.

Post by Jesterjacks » Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:36 am

Sadly, my experience with outdoor pvp is the same. I either got ganked by twinks until lvl 25-ish, or I got decimated by lvl 60. And as I said before, the only reason why I picked warmode is because I thought I'd have more of a chance if pvp happens. I do want the 30% speed because I just don't have the time with work and everything and 30% is a lot in the long span.

In hindsight, with all the corpseganking and twink killing, I'm not sure if it was worth it... It got somewhat better past 30 but I've yet to encounter someone of my lvl to fight with. It's just lvl 60s that kill me... I even got killed in stormwind mage tower past the portals.

Again. Even got killed in stormwind mage tower past the portals. I think I'm insane to have continued for 30% exp...

Then there's people who just tell me "you're pvp, you asked for this".

No. I ASKED for a fair fight, not to get corpse ganked by lvl 60s and killed in stormwind.

Jesterjacks
Posts: 17

Re: Lets talk Warmode and PvP.

Post by Jesterjacks » Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:38 am

Ah, and, any attempt to RP? I just got killed.

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Jubabuba
Posts: 10

Re: Lets talk Warmode and PvP.

Post by Jubabuba » Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:11 am

Jesterjacks wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:36 am
Sadly, my experience with outdoor pvp is the same. I either got ganked by twinks until lvl 25-ish, or I got decimated by lvl 60. And as I said before, the only reason why I picked warmode is because I thought I'd have more of a chance if pvp happens. I do want the 30% speed because I just don't have the time with work and everything and 30% is a lot in the long span.

In hindsight, with all the corpseganking and twink killing, I'm not sure if it was worth it... It got somewhat better past 30 but I've yet to encounter someone of my lvl to fight with. It's just lvl 60s that kill me... I even got killed in stormwind mage tower past the portals.

Again. Even got killed in stormwind mage tower past the portals. I think I'm insane to have continued for 30% exp...

Then there's people who just tell me "you're pvp, you asked for this".

No. I ASKED for a fair fight, not to get corpse ganked by lvl 60s and killed in stormwind.
You are describing every pvp server since WoWs existence.
It is nothing new you get ganged by 60s or Zergs or get killed somewhere you feel safe.
You want a fair fight? Do BGs, Arena or play a fresh vanilla pvp server when a project starts and try to power level to keep up with the other guys on the server or else *start reading the text above again*.
You can't change human behavior.
My point is just this men you have the choice pvp with the usual problems that comes along with it plus 30% exp or no pvp no problems and just the usual exp.
If the team takes the 30%out of warmode would you stop playing cuz it is to slow to level?

I personally play with warmode just like you just for the exp if the devs take that away I will deactivate warmode for sure.

A pvp zone where everyone who enters is flagged with some objectives would be very nice.

Jongyi
Posts: 24

Re: Lets talk Warmode and PvP.

Post by Jongyi » Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:23 am

Jubabuba wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:11 am
Jesterjacks wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:36 am
Sadly, my experience with outdoor pvp is the same. I either got ganked by twinks until lvl 25-ish, or I got decimated by lvl 60. And as I said before, the only reason why I picked warmode is because I thought I'd have more of a chance if pvp happens. I do want the 30% speed because I just don't have the time with work and everything and 30% is a lot in the long span.

In hindsight, with all the corpseganking and twink killing, I'm not sure if it was worth it... It got somewhat better past 30 but I've yet to encounter someone of my lvl to fight with. It's just lvl 60s that kill me... I even got killed in stormwind mage tower past the portals.

Again. Even got killed in stormwind mage tower past the portals. I think I'm insane to have continued for 30% exp...

Then there's people who just tell me "you're pvp, you asked for this".

No. I ASKED for a fair fight, not to get corpse ganked by lvl 60s and killed in stormwind.
You are describing every pvp server since WoWs existence.
It is nothing new you get ganged by 60s or Zergs or get killed somewhere you feel safe.
You want a fair fight? Do BGs, Arena or play a fresh vanilla pvp server when a project starts and try to power level to keep up with the other guys on the server or else *start reading the text above again*.
You can't change human behavior.
My point is just this men you have the choice pvp with the usual problems that comes along with it plus 30% exp or no pvp no problems and just the usual exp.
If the team takes the 30%out of warmode would you stop playing cuz it is to slow to level?

I personally play with warmode just like you just for the exp if the devs take that away I will deactivate warmode for sure.

A pvp zone where everyone who enters is flagged with some objectives would be very nice.
Dude, this is not a PVP server. This is PVE RP servers where most ppl come for leveling and custom contents.

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Adunai
Posts: 33
Location: The Western Ukraine

Re: Lets talk Warmode and PvP.

Post by Adunai » Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:57 am

Angulardrift wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:37 am
Rpers have been outnumbered and even PvE players are beginning to notice the irritating issues of griefers going after quest NPCs and the abysmal respawn time, its become a bit of an issue for warmode and non-warmode alike.
Maybe, the reason is... the higher population? The server has grown from 0.5k to 2.5k concurrent players over a span of 2 months, it ought to have increased the natural competition over quest NPCs. No griefing necessary to explain it.
Angulardrift wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:37 am
Why was this even considered for an RP-PvE server? We're a PvE server for a reason and tying a PvE Reward of an XP Boost to PvP content wasn't a good idea in my opinion. No one is coming here for world pvp, the faction dynamic and zone wars.
I cannot speak of anyone but myself, but I have indeed come to Turtle - 4 years after DodgyKebaab taught me of the server's existence - primarily because it has become so much livelier! I do believe we could combine the best of the both worlds - the marvelous community, full of friendly book-reading women on the one hand, and the competitive spirit of a high-population realm on the other. It is one of a kind experience, and I would see as a mistake such unnecessary antagonisation.
Jongyi wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:23 am
Dude, this is not a PVP server. This is PVE RP servers where most ppl come for leveling and custom contents.
Umm... But isn't PvP possible out in the wide world? The world so meticulously embellished by the Turtle team? Isn't it wondrous to explore it - in danger and caution?

P.S. And regarding being "nice" - would you find it nice when I buy mats off the auction house only to sell them at higher prices? How would you deal with that?
The Sin'dorei reign supreme! © Grand Astromancer Capernian

Jongyi
Posts: 24

Re: Lets talk Warmode and PvP.

Post by Jongyi » Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:27 am

Adunai wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:57 am
Angulardrift wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:37 am
Rpers have been outnumbered and even PvE players are beginning to notice the irritating issues of griefers going after quest NPCs and the abysmal respawn time, its become a bit of an issue for warmode and non-warmode alike.
Maybe, the reason is... the higher population? The server has grown from 0.5k to 2.5k concurrent players over a span of 2 months, it ought to have increased the natural competition over quest NPCs. No griefing necessary to explain it.
Angulardrift wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:37 am
Why was this even considered for an RP-PvE server? We're a PvE server for a reason and tying a PvE Reward of an XP Boost to PvP content wasn't a good idea in my opinion. No one is coming here for world pvp, the faction dynamic and zone wars.
I cannot speak of anyone but myself, but I have indeed come to Turtle - 4 years after DodgyKebaab taught me of the server's existence - primarily because it has become so much livelier! I do believe we could combine the best of the both worlds - the marvelous community, full of friendly book-reading women on the one hand, and the competitive spirit of a high-population realm on the other. It is one of a kind experience, and I would see as a mistake such unnecessary antagonisation.
Jongyi wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:23 am
Dude, this is not a PVP server. This is PVE RP servers where most ppl come for leveling and custom contents.
Umm... But isn't PvP possible out in the wide world? The world so meticulously embellished by the Turtle team? Isn't it wondrous to explore it - in danger and caution?

P.S. And regarding being "nice" - would you find it nice when I buy mats off the auction house only to sell them at higher prices? How would you deal with that?

Dude, you are so oblivious to the issues and rising trend of toxicity in the world. Are you aware griefing is a serious issue. I cannot understand why you dismiss toxicity and griefing as minor issue from increasing population.
You should come out of your 'idealized' version of turtle and then you will see the glaring issues people have been voicing.

Jonas1974
Posts: 6

Re: Lets talk Warmode and PvP.

Post by Jonas1974 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:39 am

Warmode has kinda ruined my enjoyment of the server. Let me explain why.

I initially joined a PVE server, because i don't care for PVP servers. There's plenty of options for PVP servers out there, but PVE servers are really rare.
I also love the hardcore mode, because it's thrilling that you could lose your character at any moment when you're not careful. You put a lot more effort into planing and upgrading your character. I'm totally fine with dying to mobs and losing my character. It's my own fault and i accept it.

What i'm really not okay with is all the new warmode players trying to trick you into flagging yourself for pvp. The amount of times i had warmode players SITTING ON TOP OF MOBS just so you might accidentally attack them and then they could kill you is simply staggering. Mind you this happens if you just happen to click an attack when a mob is dead and you then auto-attack the warmode player sitting on top of the dead mob. We all know how "boring" certain classes are where you just hit 1 1 1 1 until the mob is dead. Don't pay attention for a few seconds and you could be ganked and your character is gone. Not because you died to mobs on a PVE server, like it's supposed to be, but because PVP players want to trick and kill you.

This is no longer a "just ignore PVP players" scenario when they're actively trying to trick you. This is harassment of PVE players. On a PVE server. Tickets to GMs yielded no results. It's just baffling how annoying this is. You constantly have to be on the lookout for PVP players actively trying to ruin your day. The complete opposite of a PVE server!

PS. Warmode also completely killed buffing random passing players, which was always a neat part of classic. I don't want to accidentally flag myself for PVP, get ganked and lose my character. Sure, there's probably macros out there for that, but do i really have to go out of my way to avoid dealing with PVP players on a PVE server?!

Jongyi
Posts: 24

Re: Lets talk Warmode and PvP.

Post by Jongyi » Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:45 am

Jonas1974 wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:39 am
Warmode has kinda ruined my enjoyment of the server. Let me explain why.

I initially joined a PVE server, because i don't care for PVP servers. There's plenty of options for PVP servers out there, but PVE servers are really rare.
I also love the hardcore mode, because it's thrilling that you could lose your character at any moment when you're not careful. You put a lot more effort into planing and upgrading your character. I'm totally fine with dying to mobs and losing my character. It's my own fault and i accept it.

What i'm really not okay with is all the new warmode players trying to trick you into flagging yourself for pvp. The amount of times i had warmode players SITTING ON TOP OF MOBS just so you might accidentally attack them and then they could kill you is simply staggering. Mind you this happens if you just happen to click an attack when a mob is dead and you then auto-attack the warmode player sitting on top of the dead mob. We all know how "boring" certain classes are where you just hit 1 1 1 1 until the mob is dead. Don't pay attention for a few seconds and you could be ganked and your character is gone. Not because you died to mobs on a PVE server, like it's supposed to be, but because PVP players want to trick and kill you.

This is no longer a "just ignore PVP players" scenario when they're actively trying to trick you. This is harassment of PVE players. On a PVE server. Tickets to GMs yielded no results. It's just baffling how annoying this is. You constantly have to be on the lookout for PVP players actively trying to ruin your day. The complete opposite of a PVE server!

PS. Warmode also completely killed buffing random passing players, which was always a neat part of classic. I don't want to accidentally flag myself for PVP, get ganked and lose my character. Sure, there's probably macros out there for that, but do i really have to go out of my way to avoid dealing with PVP players on a PVE server?!

Agreed to your experience, buds. PVERs at the servers are now basically at the mercy of PVPers. Devs should really do something about this if they care the longevity of the server.
If they don't care, then it is their history

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Angulardrift
Posts: 5

Re: Lets talk Warmode and PvP.

Post by Angulardrift » Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:06 pm

I believe theres one solution for warmode.

-5 +5 level limit on pvp
remove 30% Bonus XP, give 30% Bonus Honor
Female Dwarf Supremacy
Bring Rp back to Turtle

Jongyi
Posts: 24

Re: Lets talk Warmode and PvP.

Post by Jongyi » Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:12 pm

Angulardrift wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:06 pm
I believe theres one solution for warmode.

-5 +5 level limit on pvp
remove 30% Bonus XP, give 30% Bonus Honor
Yes, this ideas sound acceptable. 30% bonus honor should be the deal
For 30% bonus exp, it should be something like if you have L.v60 character in your account, your toons will have 30-50% bonus exp or something like that.

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Jambiya
Posts: 43

Re: Lets talk Warmode and PvP.

Post by Jambiya » Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:30 pm

There was a point in vanilla wows development where the devs thought about adding direct negative consequences to excessive dishonorable kills. I made a note of it at the bottom of my fugitive mode/dishonorable consequence suggestion a while back: viewtopic.php?t=2546, where Kazgrim quoted from the old wow manual. While dishonorable ranks do exist here, it's mostly just flavor text and doesn't really impact gameplay. As such griefers can run amuck with no real consequence to their actions.

Personally I think if there was a way to create mechanically negative effects for excessive griefers it could serve as a natural deterrent. How something like that can be implemented, however, is another story. Wouldn't mind a pvp interaction level range at least for warmode as mentioned by Jongyi too.

Zynim
Posts: 8

Re: Lets talk Warmode and PvP.

Post by Zynim » Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:59 am

Jesterjacks wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:47 pm
I would disagree with the mentality of "if you have warmode, you accept this."

If warmode is on, I'd be fine with fighting in pvp of my level. But instead I'm just ganked by lvl 60 characters. How is that fair or fun?
Warmode is a challenge. It's not a catch-up method for the slow vanilla leveling process like others have mentioned, that is what tents are for. If you accept warmode, you're accepting the challenge of leveling while flagged with the benefit of a 30% experience boost. If you don't want to deal with the issues resulting from the challenge don't accept it.

If a quest NPC is getting killed, interact with your community. Communicate with your guild, and other players in your zone to organize a response. If you're unable to do that, move on to another zone. The only change I would make is to make the Local Defense channels only available to the faction that owns the zone (horde players shouldn't be able to see Alliance communication on the defense channel in Westfall). There are maybe a handful of griefers, most are well known and are hunted as soon as someone actually communicates where they are.

Zynim
Posts: 8

Re: Lets talk Warmode and PvP.

Post by Zynim » Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:12 am

Angulardrift wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:06 pm
I believe theres one solution for warmode.

-5 +5 level limit on pvp
remove 30% Bonus XP, give 30% Bonus Honor
So you don't want griefing, but you want to increase the honor one can gain from corpse camping. This would only exacerbate the issue you're complaining about.

Jongyi
Posts: 24

Re: Lets talk Warmode and PvP.

Post by Jongyi » Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:59 am

Zynim wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:59 am
Jesterjacks wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:47 pm
I would disagree with the mentality of "if you have warmode, you accept this."

If warmode is on, I'd be fine with fighting in pvp of my level. But instead I'm just ganked by lvl 60 characters. How is that fair or fun?
Warmode is a challenge. It's not a catch-up method for the slow vanilla leveling process like others have mentioned, that is what tents are for. If you accept warmode, you're accepting the challenge of leveling while flagged with the benefit of a 30% experience boost. If you don't want to deal with the issues resulting from the challenge don't accept it.

If a quest NPC is getting killed, interact with your community. Communicate with your guild, and other players in your zone to organize a response. If you're unable to do that, move on to another zone. The only change I would make is to make the Local Defense channels only available to the faction that owns the zone (horde players shouldn't be able to see Alliance communication on the defense channel in Westfall). There are maybe a handful of griefers, most are well known and are hunted as soon as someone actually communicates where they are.
If the solutions are as simple as u suggest, this issue wouldn't be that big as it is now. By poorly implementing the warmode, it encourage the worst of human behavior. You can see the excessive ganking, griefing, PVPers insulting PVErs in the world chat.
Griefers are thriving as now it is because there is basically no consequences for their toxicity and no moderation.
Devs should see the issues. Blindly shilling and ignoring glaring issues will further divide the essence of community and hurt the longevity of the server

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Gantulga
Posts: 32

Re: Lets talk Warmode and PvP.

Post by Gantulga » Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:08 am

Jongyi wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:59 am
Zynim wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:59 am
Jesterjacks wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:47 pm
I would disagree with the mentality of "if you have warmode, you accept this."

If warmode is on, I'd be fine with fighting in pvp of my level. But instead I'm just ganked by lvl 60 characters. How is that fair or fun?
Warmode is a challenge. It's not a catch-up method for the slow vanilla leveling process like others have mentioned, that is what tents are for. If you accept warmode, you're accepting the challenge of leveling while flagged with the benefit of a 30% experience boost. If you don't want to deal with the issues resulting from the challenge don't accept it.

If a quest NPC is getting killed, interact with your community. Communicate with your guild, and other players in your zone to organize a response. If you're unable to do that, move on to another zone. The only change I would make is to make the Local Defense channels only available to the faction that owns the zone (horde players shouldn't be able to see Alliance communication on the defense channel in Westfall). There are maybe a handful of griefers, most are well known and are hunted as soon as someone actually communicates where they are.
If the solutions are as simple as u suggest, this issue wouldn't be that big as it is now. By poorly implementing the warmode, it encourage the worst of human behavior. You can see the excessive ganking, griefing, PVPers insulting PVErs in the world chat.
Griefers are thriving as now it is because there is basically no consequences for their toxicity and no moderation.
Devs should see the issues. Blindly shilling and ignoring glaring issues will further divide the essence of community and hurt the longevity of the server
The fact that a single 60 can terrorize a low level zone for hours only means that there isn't enough PvP participation. The same applies to the fact that you barely if ever see flagged players while leveling, and even those rarely fight back.

PvP should be self-moderated but the community simply doesn't engage in it enough. Why? I don't really know and to be honest I haven't seen those issues on any other server I've played on. People are generally happy to hunt down those bullying lowbies but that isn't the case here.

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Towdon2
Posts: 5

Re: Lets talk Warmode and PvP.

Post by Towdon2 » Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:56 am

This all really just seems like a moderation issue if it's an issue at all.

On Classic or Retail if you grief Quest givers you get banned, it's as simple as that. That's not to say killing an NPC is going to get actions taken against you but if you sit there and kill the same NPC 3-4 times with the intent to prevent people from turning in or picking up the quest then you would.

I think the bigger issue that isn't being talked about is how Warmode interacts with the LFT tool. Right now if I get into a 5 man with any horde (Literally every 5 man) through the LFT tool I have no control over other players killing me and camping my body. If I defend myself then I get removed from my group and potentially lose my spot in the group and if I don't defend myself then I just get camped and can't leave / am forced to take Rez Sickness. It's a lose lose situation for me and I have zero control about this as it's not explained well anywhere.

A recommendation I would give is either remove PvP all together while in a LFT group with the opposite faction, or don't remove players from the party for doing PvP. Both recommendations have problems but imo the risks are worth the enjoyment of the player.

Fizzles
Posts: 27

Re: Lets talk Warmode and PvP.

Post by Fizzles » Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:24 pm

I would lock any NPCs that gave quests or a flight point to become unattackable(and not aggro at all) by anyone like with the NPCs in starting zones. It isn’t a perfect solution when quest objectives can be griefed, but it will allow people to turn in quests.


The best solution though is to keep warmode limited to PvP rewards to stop baiting PvE players into taking the glyph. It’s funny to see the amount of angry whispers that warmoders give out when they are ganked for taking a glyph that enables them to get griefed.

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