A hard serious discussion about the Forsaken

[Shadowfire]

I know I'm probably gonna get a lot of grief for this but someone needs to say it so here it goes

The Forsaken Undead have no business being a playable Race in wow

Now I know what you guys must be thinking but my reasoning for this goes Bsck directly to Warcraft 3 and I will explain Below

First off we must ask ourselves 3 vary important questions

1. Why did Blizzard settle on the Forsaken as a playable Race?

2. How did the Forsaken come to join the Horde?

3. Would the Horde ever willingly except nonetheless tolerate any Undead within its ranks?

During the Undead campaign in warcraft 3 the frozen throne The only thing that was made certain was that Sylvanas and her renegades Formed a new independent Undead faction in Lordaeron

They never joined the Horde, never approached any of the Horde for an invite nor were they ever invited into the Horde

The Hole story regarding the Tauren backing the Forsaken's entry into the Horde also falls flat on its face when you examine it closely for one simple reason and that is all Tauren hold nature sacred. No matter how much conflict or hate exist between the Tauren tribes they would never back the Forsaken because the Undead are a affront to nature

The horde's tolerace of the Forsaken is also problematic because of the horde's past dealings with evil creatures and the level of disgust and mistrust towards the Undead would make any tolerance of Undead by the Horde leadership impossible

I honestly think that Blizzard only added the Forsaken as a playable Race because they wanted a Horde faction in Lordaeron and I'm sorry but that's not a good enough reason for making a race playable

A good replacement for the Forsaken would be the stonemaul ogres with Rexxar as faction leader

The stonemaul were brought into the Horde during warcraft 3 and the fact that they are ogres would give them a shared past with the orcs and their shamanic/hunter ways would give them good relations with the Tauren and the Darkspear trolls

Overall the stonemaul ogres are a much better fit for a playable Horde race then the Forsaken

If the Forsaken were removed from turtle wow as a Playable Race that doesn't mean they have to be removed from the game entirely as they would make a great replacement for the scarlet crusade with Forsaken holdings in tirisfal, Silverpine, hillsbrad and the Plaguelands becoming Quest targets for Players from both factions

Trisfal could become a level 60 Quest zone with the Undercity as a Raid containing Sylvanas and varimatheras as the final bosses

All Horde players who were Undead could be given a free race change to any horse race of their choice

So the question for the turtle wow team is this

Is it possible to restrict the Forsaken to a non playable enemy faction.... and is it worth it?

[Redmagejoe]

To your last question, going to say probably "no"

[Jolikmc]

1. Why did Blizzard settle on the Forsaken as a playable Race?

I'd say because people like zombies and because Death Knight Arthas and Banshee / Dark Ranger Sylvanas were popular? Lore-wise, it wouldn't have made sense to make the Scourge playable since they're hostile toward any living faction, so why not the zombies under the recently-awakened Sylvanas' lead? Their story is so compelling, too:

[…] the Forsaken wage an unending battle against the Scourge as well as the remaining humans who still seek to reclaim their lands. For though the very land is cursed, the zealous humans of the Scarlet Crusade cling to their scattered holdings, obsessed with eradicating the undead and retaking their once-beautiful homeland.

Like… wow, man. What a great story!
–

2. How did the Forsaken come to join the Horde?

Well, as you mentioned, the story of the Forsaken becoming a part of the Horde was told "off-screen". The in-game cinema doesn't really clear anything up, either:

Convinced that the primitive races of the Horde can help them achieve victory over their enemies, the Forsaken have entered an alliance of convenience with the savage orcs and the proud tauren. Harboring no true loyalty for their new allies, they will go to any lengths to ensure their dark plans come to fruition.

Reading the official World of Warcraft RPG Horde Player's Guide (2005) tells us a few extra things…
The Forsaken became extremely distrustful of humanity, and the Alliance as a whole, because of the Scarlet Crusade's zeal. Sylvanas knew that the humans of Stormwind wouldn't listen to her, and I guess she assumed the dwarves of Ironforge wouldn't, either, since the two factions were basically the same. Worried for her "people", Sylvanas figured had no other choice than to try and contact the more "primitive" races of Durotar. Amusingly, while some of the diplomats were slain at first – due to being confused for Undead Scourge – some of them did get to talking with some people in the Horde and some meetings were arranged. During the diplomatic meetings, Sylvanas basically convinced Thrall that the Horde needed her people as much as her people needed the Horde because, you know, demons. Humans. Zombies. Things like that. I think the guidebook says it best:

"I don’t know how, but Thrall bought it."

According to this same book, the Horde's numbers were dwindling after the Third War and, for whatever reason, Thrall decided he wanted some small foothold in the Eastern Kingdoms of Azeroth. On top of that, the Earthen Ring had been talking with Cairne and mentioned that the Forsaken had been battling the same demons that the Horde was engaged with. All of this ultimately encouraged Thrall to give the Forsaken a chance and an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" kind of pact was made. They're not true allies. Just, you know, "convenient non-hostiles". That's probably why Forsaken start as "neutral" with all other Horde factions and vice-versa, in-game.

Honestly? I think the original lore is better than what they ret-conned lore into. "Oh, Hamuul and Magatha begged Thrall to let them in because they want to restore their humanity." What's next, then? Muradin Bronzebeard coming back from the dead? Arthas breaking free of Ner'zhul's control and confessing he was a mindless puppet? Thrall disappearing for a few years and coming back with a convenient, no-name wifey just to wolsh off Thrall / Jaina shippers? Oh, wait.

Lore is what you make of it. And Blizzard apparently wanted to make it a dog's dinner. (:
–

3. Would the Horde ever willingly except nonetheless tolerate any Undead within its ranks?

Initially, my answer was a straight "no". The Horde has no place for creatures like the Forsaken in its ranks, nor would Sylvanas want to bend a knee to anyone or anything. But, after reading the RPG lore a bit… well… my answer to that exact question is still "no". The Forsaken shouldn't be a part of the Horde, proper, and lore-wise… I'm not sure they really are? As I said, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Thrall probably figured that Sylvanas would be useful in keeping Azeroth away from his people and Sylvanas hoped that Thrall would bolster her numbers enough to defend her lands from the Scarlet Crusade and the Burning Legion.

Realistically, the Forsaken are exactly what their name implies: Forsaken. Forsaken by the Light. Forsaken by the Dark. Forsaken in life and forsaken in death. They live to die and die to live. None of them really wants to be what they are, but they had little choice in the matter. No pretty little lies about wanting to become human. No nefarious schemes from Magatha. Just an alliance of convenience and safety. As soon as one doesn't need the other, they would probably part ways quietly and without conflict. Leave them to their own devices because, really, what could Sylvanas possibly do? Free more Scourge from the Lich King's control? Erase the living from her stolen lands? Or just… survive? I honestly don't think she had a goal or even a plan beyond survival. She just knew she didn't want her, or her "people", under the control of the Lich King or anyone else.

Ultimately, the Forsaken being "official, card-carrying members of the Horde" has little bearing on whether or not they should be a playable race. You could technically consider them to be the first "allied race", in a lot of ways. But of course… this was before "allied races" were a mechanic, which is probably why Draenei, Sin'dorei, Gilneans, and the Bilgewater Cartel became "core races" in future updates of retail rather than, you know, unlockables. And on a similar note…

A good replacement for the Forsaken would be the stonemaul ogres with Rexxar as faction leader

I guess we know the real reason this post came about, hey?

[Allwynd01]

I also think Forsaken should not be a playable race, but from the little that I know, Alliance were where the developers poured most of their creativity into. Horde were something of an afterthought. In WC3, Trolls, Orcs and Tauren are the same faction, but Forsaken aren't. In the same game, the Humans have either High Elves or Half Elves (can't remember, never really liked the game), Gnomes and Dwarves. So in a way their faction was already set up.

I think WoW developers made Forsaken a playable race as a last resort to get a relevant 4th race for the Horde. It was also probably their take on Horde humans. Since all Horde races look more or less like beasts, Forsaken feel right at home there. In my experience, when I first started playing WoW, I thought to myself "There is no way in hell I would play as any of the beasts from the Horde." and that's probably the impression WoW developers were going for.

[Mativh]

With all due respect, you are absolutely wrong. Their lore is quite complex and requires a deeper emotional investment in order to be understood.

The Scourge aren't compatible with Alliance or Horde not because of happening to be cursed with undeath, but because they were spreading this curse, which reanimates ones corpse as a mindless puppet used as a weapon in an army that wants to destroy you.

Forsaken are the humans of Lordaeron, that were turned into this weapon, they were forced to commit attrocities in that state. But when the power of the Lich King got weaker, they've managed to reclaim their minds, and to their horror they've seen that their bodies are afflicted by undeath. When you say undead, you imagine an abomination killing everything in sight at the order of a necromancer, the Forsaken aren't that, they are basically Humans with an illness and understandably immense psychological trauma.

It is one of the most tragic parts of Warcraft lore, how they've found themselves in this situation, with everything in ruins yet with a will to live on, and surrounded by enemies.

The undead people of Lordaeron considered themselves to be still in the Alliance, and reached out to Stormwind with the news of them being free from the grasp of the Scourge, asking for help. Stormwind killed all emissaries on sight. There was no way to explain to the shallow minded masses that they aren't evil undead, that they have free will and need help. The Horde first had the same prejudice, only the Tauren were wise enough to see beyond the first impression, and offered their help. The Tauren have softened the stance of the Horde just enough to see also a strategic advantage of having Lordaeron under their control.

Everyones assumptions became a self fullfiling prophecy. By the time the Forsaken finally found allies, they've formed a worldview where they look out mainly for themselves, convinced that the primitive races of the Horde can help them achieve victory over their enemies, the Forsaken have entered an alliance of convenience. Harboring no true loyalty for their new allies, they go to any lengths to ensure their dark plans come to fruition.

It is an unique race, they've never pretended to fit the Hordes thematics, of course adding the Ogres to the Horde would've been simpler, but Warcraft isn't such a franchise, things aren't always rigidly following preconcised ideas and many things occur and fall into place that one wouldn't expect. The Forsaken are my favorite playable race and I've always appreciated how special their place is in the world, sometimes you have to dare to go against premade ideas and carve out depths that weren't there before.

Warcraft is in fact all about this postmodern take on original ideas, about breaking norms. The Orcs aren't evil even though they seem to be when they first appear in Azeroth, they were taken from the Warhammer franchise which took them from Tolkien, where Orcs were very one dimensional. The Forsaken break the concept of the Horde being only tribal races, majority of concept that drives the story forward are contradictions breaking the norm. Nothing is exactly as it appears to be on the surface.

Many things that you've asked are very well summarised here (but I recommend you to read the Forsaken quests in WoW as well as lore books and play the Warcraft RTS campaigns):
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Forsaken

[Philandros]

This just reminds me of past philosophical discussions that WoW should have had 4 Factions like in the WC story.

Alliance: Humans, High Elves, Dwarves, and Gnomes
Horde: Orcs, Tauren, Trolls, and Ogres
Night Elves: Night Elves, Dryads
Forsaken: Undead Humans, Undead High Elves, and Abominations

Classes should have done something similar like SWTOR, with similar mechanics but different animations (to preserve balance.)
For instance, a Warlock for the Horde, and a Hydromancer for the Alliance, a Grove Keeper for Night Elves, and a
Necromancer for the Forsaken.

Priest for Alliance, Spirit Walker for Horde, Acolyte for Forsaken, and Moon Priest for Night Elves

On top of that the factions have a special class: which could even be similar to the above but mirrored between 2 factions (to preserve some kind of balance).

Alliance = Paladin
Forsaken = Death Knight (essentially recolored paladin spells)

Horde = Shaman (essentially reanimated druid spells)
Night Elves = Druids

Magic Schools should have synergized with similar classes or factions or just been simplified as Magic Damage/Healing.

Players should have been able to group with anyone, like in WC multiplayer. Other faction guards and towns would not like you. And factions have a common language and a faction language, if they want to talk behind other players backs.

There should have been more battlegrounds, and pvp versions of warfronts and more neutral towns from goblins and pirates that had their own cross faction battle grounds with the capture the flag, huttball, or arenas.

Doing all this would completely reshape the World of Warcraft world as we know it in Vanilla.

I nerded out on this long ago and have so many notes.

[Reploidrocsa]

This just reminds me of past philosophical discussions that WoW should have had 4 Factions like in the WC story.

Alliance: Humans, High Elves, Dwarves, and Gnomes
Horde: Orcs, Tauren, Trolls, and Ogres
Night Elves: Night Elves, Dryads
Forsaken: Undead Humans, Undead High Elves, and Abominations

Classes should have done something similar like SWTOR, with similar mechanics but different animations (to preserve balance.)
For instance, a Warlock for the Horde, and a Hydromancer for the Alliance, a Grove Keeper for Night Elves, and a
Necromancer for the Forsaken.

Priest for Alliance, Spirit Walker for Horde, Acolyte for Forsaken, and Moon Priest for Night Elves

On top of that the factions have a special class: which could even be similar to the above but mirrored between 2 factions (to preserve some kind of balance).

Alliance = Paladin
Forsaken = Death Knight (essentially recolored paladin spells)

Horde = Shaman (essentially reanimated druid spells)
Night Elves = Druids

Magic Schools should have synergized with similar classes or factions or just been simplified as Magic Damage/Healing.

Players should have been able to group with anyone, like in WC multiplayer. Other faction guards and towns would not like you. And factions have a common language and a faction language, if they want to talk behind other players backs.

There should have been more battlegrounds, and pvp versions of warfronts and more neutral towns from goblins and pirates that had their own cross faction battle grounds with the capture the flag, huttball, or arenas.

Doing all this would completely reshape the World of Warcraft world as we know it in Vanilla.

I nerded out on this long ago and have so many notes.

i also think that would've been the best course of action, with active monitorizing to ensure faction balance at all times

maybe add furbolgs and owlkin to night elves
add nerubians or ghosts (spirits and banshees) to forsaken

if we go full crazy idealistic, i would say replace abominations with a new model and calling them half golems, part necromancy, part construct. Not as strong as an abo but way more agile and intelligent. Something similar to a resized thaddius model

[Mativh]

This just reminds me of past philosophical discussions that WoW should have had 4 Factions like in the WC story.

Since the very first character creation screen, there were already Undeads in the Horde, even before Trolls who fit more thematically.
Many people think that WoW was made after W3, adapting the MMO to the RTS prequel, but that's not true.
W3 development started in 1998 and ended in 2002 and the expansion in 2003, while the earliest content from WoWs development is from 1999.
Warcraft 3 and WoW development is intertwined and the concepts behind both influenced each other.
The idea was that WoW will have the 2 original factions of the franchise: Alliance vs Horde, while Warcraft 3 will have 4 factions: Alliance, Sentinel, Horde, Scourge.
And once the W3 story concludes, these factions will become the 2 original ones, the Sentinel joining the Alliance and the "good" Scourge (Forsaken) joining the Horde.
The Horde of Warcraft was originally only Orcs, and by the time the Trolls and Tauren joined the Horde in W3, events were taking place in order for the Forsaken to join in WoW.
The Sentinel didn't join the Alliance until WoW, and their thematic doesn't exactly match the Human Alliance the same way the Forsaken doesn't match the Horde, yet they're both allies of those factions.
The Troll and Tauren on the other hand are closer thematically to the Orcs just like Dwarves are to Humans that's why they shared factions in W3, but for WoW there was planned the union I've mentioned since the beginning, and the Forsaken and the Night Elves should remain playable and allied to their factions.

I agree with you that the 4 factions should have been preserved and I like what you've mentioned about the classes.
I think the best would have been if in WoW the 4 factions of W3 remained as separate, but allied 2 vs 2, with races belonging to each faction in a way it feels right and not necessarily the same amount, but each faction having it's strong individual identities.
I never liked that it feels like everyone is subordinated to the leaders of Humans in Alliance and the Orcs in the Horde, after WotLK even more so when everything concentrated to Stormwind and Orgrimmar, leaving the other capitals empty and secondary.

This would be an interesting alternative:
- Alliance : Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, High Elves (maybe Vrykul and Draenei later) [faction exclusive class: Paladin]
allied with the faction:
- Sentinel : Night Elves [Druid]
versus
- Horde : Orcs, Trolls, Tauren, Goblin (perhaps Ogres) [Shaman]
allied with the faction:
- Forsaken : Undead Humans of Lordaeron, maybe Undead High Elves of Quel'thalas using the Wretched/Banshee models or in case the High Elves weren't added to the Alliance; Blood Elves and the Naga (a group that would break off from Illidan with them) [Death Knight]
(Alliance and Sentinel having Warlocks doesn't make sense lore wise, so that could be restricted to the Horde/Forsaken while the Alliance gaining Shamans as the Vrykul, as well as the Draenei, but with an alternative appearance of the Broken Draenei option that could be Shamans and Rogues but not Paladins Mages or Priests)

[Allwynd01]

Forsaken: Undead Humans, Undead High Elves, and Abominations

I think there should be Undead Dwarves and maybe Undead Gnomes as well, not 100% sure about the Gnomes.

[Bellybutton]

This is less of a serious suggestion since I know how impossible this would be to implement, and just me spewing bullshit "ideas" in my head.

Semi-related but since we're talking about factions, I've always thought "What if we had a third faction, a playable Scourge?"
There's already many different types of humanoid "races"/humanoid undead within in the Scourge to create a roster of playable races equivalent to the Horde and Alliance, and much like how Alliance have Paladins and Horde has shamans, the Scourge could have playable Death Knights.
The Scourge would only be unlocked as a playable faction on your account upon reaching level 60 on a Horde or Alliance character and possibly doing a specific epic quest chain. Scourge characters would start at level 45 or level 50. Scourge characters would be hostile to literally everything, including neutral towns.

Lordaeron would have to be reworked to facilitate and not ruin the existing low level Horde Forsaken zones and the High Level plaguelands, while also having room for new Scourge quest chains. An entirely reworked or reimagined Northrend could be added that serves as both a starting point for Scourge and an endgame/late level continent for all factions. Scourge quest chains would emphasize how evil and relentless the Scourge is, instead of trying to make them a sympathetic faction, and would push Scourge players into conflict with both the Horde and the Alliance, and trying to desecrate areas around The Eastern Kingdoms, Lordaeron and Kalimdor.

[Aquino]

I think that since a lot of people like playing as undead (me included) and at the same time feeling part of the horde doing so, I suggest an aproximation between the races by having a faction of the Forsaken willing to work with the Horde to find a cure for Undeath. They would value the shammanic and druidic knowledge of the Horde while keeping the memories of Lordaeron alive. That would be a far more interesting plot, have a former human kingdom in need of help of the ones they warred and imprisioned before. That would be a real alliance of convenience. Of course, i don't think the apotecaries and psychos should be removed, because even the Horde tolarates Warlocks on their ranks. All in all, i am saying that there should be a real link between the two and i think my suggestion is a good solution. I said in other thread called "A Cure for Undeath" that they should add some quests representing shamans and druids working there and some forsaken interested in curing themselves. It's just logical that some people wish to do everything possible to return to their lives. It's a sollutio that would fix a vanilla lore problem, not break the vibe AND its easy to do. Just add a few NPCs and some quests and boom, we have consistent good lore in game.

See my thread on this forum if you want to know more about my suggestion
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3005

[Kazgrim]

They don’t thematically fit within the Horde but at this point it would be innapropiate to remove a playable race that many players have as characters. A better solution would have been to have the 4 wc3 factions but that ship has sailed 20 years ago.

[Redmagejoe]

For the reasons stated by multiple people already, I think this should be moved from Suggestions to some more appropriate Discussion board, since it's just not feasible from a resources standpoint or a community acceptance standpoint.

[Jolikmc]

I'm gonna chime in on this subject, again, but with less words and more opinions.

Ignoring the lore for a minute (as Blizzard often does, bam), the Forsaken are sort of "locked in" as a playable race for the Horde.  The Horde has "evil" races in its ranks – obvious exception being the Tauren because, c'mon.  Evil cows? (There is no cow level.) But yeah.  The Horde has "evil" races so, of course, the Forsaken "fit" in that regard.
From a purely gameplay standpoint, they're just one of eight (well, ten, on this server) playable races with their own racial abilities and passives.  It makes very little difference which side they're on, on that front.  Unless, of course, someone is roleplaying.

Just because they're "assigned" to the Horde doesn't mean people have to play them as "Horde" characters.  They're pretty self-contained and there's a lot of "Forsaken" quests in the world.  It's easy enough to simply go about one's business without even touching the greater Horde – at least for a while.
Inversely, players can roleplay a Forsaken character who's trying to prove themselves to the Horde.  Ya know… show they're loyal.  Trustworthy.  Honorable.  Maybe they're a spy for Sylvanas.  Maybe they're trying to overthrow Thrall for their own desires.  Maybe they genuinely enjoy the company of long, tall, tauren babes.  Whatever the case, they've dedicated themselves to serving the Horde whether they're welcome or not.

Just some food for thought.

[Allwynd01]

I'm gonna chime in on this subject, again, but with less words and more opinions.

Ignoring the lore for a minute (as Blizzard often does, bam), the Forsaken are sort of "locked in" as a playable race for the Horde.  The Horde has "evil" races in its ranks – obvious exception being the Tauren because, c'mon.  Evil cows? (There is no cow level.) But yeah.  The Horde has "evil" races so, of course, the Forsaken "fit" in that regard.
From a purely gameplay standpoint, they're just one of eight (well, ten, on this server) playable races with their own racial abilities and passives.  It makes very little difference which side they're on, on that front.  Unless, of course, someone is roleplaying.

Just because they're "assigned" to the Horde doesn't mean people have to play them as "Horde" characters.  They're pretty self-contained and there's a lot of "Forsaken" quests in the world.  It's easy enough to simply go about one's business without even touching the greater Horde – at least for a while.
Inversely, players can roleplay a Forsaken character who's trying to prove themselves to the Horde.  Ya know… show they're loyal.  Trustworthy.  Honorable.  Maybe they're a spy for Sylvanas.  Maybe they're trying to overthrow Thrall for their own desires.  Maybe they genuinely enjoy the company of long, tall, tauren babes.  Whatever the case, they've dedicated themselves to serving the Horde whether they're welcome or not.

Just some food for thought.

The WoW comics show that races interact with each other much more than they do in the game. If one judges affiliation based on just the game, they can't talk to each other since they don't speak the same language and they should attack each other on sight like stupid pre-programmed robots.

In the comics, it's shown that all races interact with each other, such as travelers, adventurers, merchants and such aren't governed directly by who's Horde or who's Alliance, they go pretty much where they want and interact with whoever they want.

For such a long time Kalimdor is mostly established as a Horde continent and Eastern Kingdoms as an Alliance continent. But if it has to be made more realistic, there should be more NPCs from each race in absolutely every zone in the game and they should be neutral so as to create a more living and believable world, as opposed to the current "Black and White" world where people have grown to expect only a certain race to be in each zone, which not true at all. Teldrassil is not just full of Night Elves or Mulgore on full of Tauren and so forth, there should be members of every race in places like Tirisfal Glades, both Plaguelands and so forth.

In another thread some months ago I suggested adding some small quest hubs of the opposing faction into every zone, like a Horde quest hub in Westfall or an Alliance quest hub in Silveprine or Barrens and so forth. Even in 1-10 zones like Elwynn or Mulgore should have Alliance or neutral quest hubs so players from both factions are more encouraged to visit zones that in the "Vanilla" Vanilla were never intended for them to go to.

And back on topic for the Forsaken, they aren't all evil or serving Sylvanas zealously, some love to go about doing their own thing.