Populated Cities

[Noemad]

Ahoy there Turtlers,

This was a little idea I was mulling over the last few days as I was going in and out of Stormwind. One thing that RPGs and MMO's, in general, have always gotten a bit wrong is cities, they just never seem full enough... I know in the past that's been down to hardware/software limitations at the time, but I think it's very doable nowadays.

The vanilla versions of the cities are really quite bare, and considering this server has a bit of an RP aspect to it, I thought a nice little upgrade to the cities (possibly just starting with SW/Org) would be great to increase the experience in the cities.

Having more citizens of the city and outlying settlements occupying the territory would look great, and I imagine - or rather hope it wouldn't put too much stress on the server.

In Stormwind for example, at the gates, there could be farmers who are coming into the city, beggars, pilgrims, all sorts. You could fill the trade district with a few extra street vendors, and maybe NPCs who look like they're buying/doing what people do. The cathedral district could be filled up a bit with priests/monks and paladins in training, attending service, praying, etc.

The old town could be filled with thugs and assassins for hire (not really for hire......but maybe?), gangs, an illegal gambling den, a house of pleasurable desires *cough*...ahem...

The canals could have fishermen, and people on the little dinghy boats.

There could be more noblemen strutting their stuff about the city, looking down upon us simple adventurers.

Anyways, you get the picture.

Populated cities.

[Sinrek]

I would like to see your example for each city, please.

[Kanto123]

Can we have nightclubs pls; I'm looking to get lit on a Friday night in Orgrimmar

[Kanto123]

Ahoy there Turtlers,

This was a little idea I was mulling over the last few days as I was going in and out of Stormwind. One thing that RPGs and MMO's, in general, have always gotten a bit wrong is cities, they just never seem full enough... I know in the past that's been down to hardware/software limitations at the time, but I think it's very doable nowadays.

The vanilla versions of the cities are really quite bare, and considering this server has a bit of an RP aspect to it, I thought a nice little upgrade to the cities (possibly just starting with SW/Org) would be great to increase the experience in the cities.

Having more citizens of the city and outlying settlements occupying the territory would look great, and I imagine - or rather hope it wouldn't put too much stress on the server.

In Stormwind for example, at the gates, there could be farmers who are coming into the city, beggars, pilgrims, all sorts. You could fill the trade district with a few extra street vendors, and maybe NPCs who look like they're buying/doing what people do. The cathedral district could be filled up a bit with priests/monks and paladins in training, attending service, praying, etc.

The old town could be filled with thugs and assassins for hire (not really for hire......but maybe?), gangs, an illegal gambling den, a house of pleasurable desires *cough*...ahem...

The canals could have fishermen, and people on the little dinghy boats.

There could be more noblemen strutting their stuff about the city, looking down upon us simple adventurers.

Anyways, you get the picture.

Populated cities.

Basically, the turtle devs could replicate what is done in the Grand Theft Auto games by having npcs going about regular, daily activities within and around the cities

[Raukodor]

For me is a +1000 always feel the world a little bit empty and the bif cities without life

If is a way to implement npcs who moves and do emotes or talk will be really awesome

[Merikkinon]

I've always enjoyed how there are some scripted NPC activities in the cities (and some other places), where NPCs gather and go through dialogue (consider the Draenei demon class that walks around in the Erodar). Would be great if there was more of that, a bit spaced out as to time, and there were variants to the dialogue or script (not sure if that's possible, but it's a nice though).

[Reploidrocsa]

Oh yeah, i would love some random npc doing some random paths, just like skyrim. Even if they don't interact with anything and just go to point A to point B and despawn

[Dutchie75]

+1
Good suggestion

[5kaeledas5]

I would truly love this feature to be implemented

[Niralthas]

Get to ta NPC Creataaahh!!!

[Noemad]

I would like to see your example for each city, please.

Sorry it took me a while to respond here, been busy.

Here's what I think it could possibly look like! I've done it just for Stormwind and Orgrimmar for now, if the idea actually comes to fruition and devs like it, it would be nice to test it out in just SW and Org first I think, then move onto the other cities.

Stormwind

Valley of Heroes - The main thoroughfare into the city, you could have all sorts of citizens lingering in the valley or entering the city. Farmers, pilgrims, homeless and vagabonds, fishermen down by the water, adventurer/militia npc's, more guards present (You'd think for a capital city there would be more guards on duty)

Trade District - There could be more street merchants outside of the main stores, npc's browsing the stalls and also more citizens looking at the wares inside the stores as well, Noble's strolling the streets, beggars, children. The trade district should be a hive of activity where all sorts of citizens and adventurers clash.

Old Town - We could up the shenanigans and seediness of Old Town. There could be a couple of different gangs unique to Stormwind/Elwynn area (And to Turtle-WoW) with members dotted around old town and in its alleys. There could be mercenaries, the inns could be more populated with gang members, thieves, assassins, mercs and traveling salesmen, there could also be some form of brothel-esque culture in one of the old-town inns, with "escort" style npc's, dancers and revelers who seek to escape the prying eyes of the other districts, drinking and partying the night away.

Mage Quarter - Wizened scholars and novice witches and wizards could roam the streets, looking for knowledge. The mage tower and its surroundings should be abuzz with students of the magical arts. There could also be young child mages being instructed by older mages. (Like hogwarts, yes, shut up)

Dwarven District - You could see a more diverse crowd of dwarves here. There could be groups from different clans, as well as a dispatch of the mountaineers from Ironforge.

Cathedral District - We could see priests and pilgrims in training, or in service/prayer. Groups of priests walking the grounds, same for paladins.


Orgrimmar

Entrance - There could be crews of peons at work on the city, or heading inside with supplies from the surrounding encampents. Similar to Stormwind's entrance, there could also be roaming groups of adventurers, pilgrims seeking refuge, different clan groups heading into the city.

Valley of Strength - We could see an increased guard presence I the valley of strength, as it is the entrance to orgrimmar. There could also be more street peddlers, citizens of the city looking for and trading goods, warband/warparty members, traveling salesmen, beggars of all sorts.

The Drag - This has always felt like it could be a sort of dwelling area, so an increased presence of horde family-like npc's (and children) would be interesting and something we rarely see. If there's an inn here, it could also have reveler like npc's.

The Cleft of Shadow - This could have an increased presence of those who walk in the shadows! More thieves, assassins, warlocks, and all-around unscrupulous sorts. We could see some of those shadow hunters from the trolls, cartel members and bosses from the goblins, mercenary bands from the taurens etc.

The Valley of Honor - We should see Orgrimmar's finest military might being trained here, orcs of young and old proving themselves, or making the pledge to the horde. There could also be some fisherman by the body of water there. There should also be gladiators here as well. Maybe even rich Orgrimmar citizens who own the gladiator's and peons.

The Valley of Wisdom - Here we could see a more diverse elite guard of Orgrimmar, more military officers of the horde and warriors of the horde coming to pledge themselves to the Warchief. There could also be pilgrims seeking knowledge from the warchief or begging outside Gromash hold.

The Valley of Spirits/Talon Gate - We could see an increased troll presence here, as well as magic users of all sorts, mages, warlocks, priests, druids all training, learning and sharing knowledge by the pools and huts. I also think it would be neat to do what they did in Cataclysm and turn the latter part of this valley that leads to the talon gate (The back entrance of org) into the goblin slums/dwellings.

-

Anyways, if this is still interesting and goes further, I'd love to help out more!

[Kyzen]

+1 good idea

[Sinrek]

No love for Ironforge or Undercity?

[Pistol]

I actually have some ideas for flavor NPCs in Undercity, Orgrimmar and a few other places but I'll be posting those in a separate thread I think as my suggestion isn't quite of the same nature.

[Littlebirdd]

+10000 that would be so great

[Noemad]

Aw thanks for all the positive support y'all! Let's hope our Turtle Overlords approve.

In addition, I think it's important that these npc's aren't just static or beholden to one place. In addition to what I've listed above, there should just be regular citizens who have pathing through the city and move about. This would add to the "alive" feeling of an actual city......within the limitations of the WoW client and server load, of course.

[Merikkinon]

ORG - I'd love to see a place where some off-duty Orc guards gather and chat, even with ridiculous dialogue. Sometimes they are there, sometimes not.

SW - you know how there are the female mages that walk around talking about leylines and all that mumbojumbo? Would be great to see a few off-duty officers or soldiers walking around (some in partial gear) having some conversations (about leylines? hahaha)

IF - again, off-duty soldiers getting tanked, or talking jack with one another... maybe having some type of goofy dwarf macho games.

Darn - too granola to come up with anything for...

TB - def here have some strength games...

UC - I am unsure, but def the place needs to be made a lot creepier... i would love it if it were a bit dangerous, but that's me... but definitely some creepy stuff




Again, it would be great if they were NOT like present 100% of the time. That helps with appreciating them when they do occur.

[Allwynd01]

ORG - I'd love to see a place where some off-duty Orc guards gather and chat, even with ridiculous dialogue. Sometimes they are there, sometimes not.

SW - you know how there are the female mages that walk around talking about leylines and all that mumbojumbo? Would be great to see a few off-duty officers or soldiers walking around (some in partial gear) having some conversations (about leylines? hahaha)

IF - again, off-duty soldiers getting tanked, or talking jack with one another... maybe having some type of goofy dwarf macho games.

Darn - too granola to come up with anything for...

TB - def here have some strength games...

UC - I am unsure, but def the place needs to be made a lot creepier... i would love it if it were a bit dangerous, but that's me... but definitely some creepy stuff




Again, it would be great if they were NOT like present 100% of the time. That helps with appreciating them when they do occur.

It can start simpler at first - without a chat, because that's some more effort. It can just be more NPCs without any other purpose than walking around. Some market stands with an NPC behind and NPCs walking around, stopping, looking, having a chat animation with the seller and moving on.

Pretty much all settlements in the game, big or small look like they have precisely the amount of NPCs that only have some functionality useful to the player.

Like Goldshire for example - it's just an inn and a smithy... and that's supposed to be a village. I know there is one building by the lake and Turtle WoW has added a few more, but there can be a few houses scattered around with some pointless NPCs just walking about, this can be applied to all settlements.

Especially Booty Bay should see some real expansions in all departments, I think it's the go-to neutral hub in the game, but it can definitely use some expanding - 1-2 more levels, more NPCs, class trainers, arena/battleground NPCs, maybe some dungeon like Booty Bay Sewers for levels 35-45 and a lot of new quests.

[Kanto123]

ORG - I'd love to see a place where some off-duty Orc guards gather and chat, even with ridiculous dialogue. Sometimes they are there, sometimes not.

SW - you know how there are the female mages that walk around talking about leylines and all that mumbojumbo? Would be great to see a few off-duty officers or soldiers walking around (some in partial gear) having some conversations (about leylines? hahaha)

IF - again, off-duty soldiers getting tanked, or talking jack with one another... maybe having some type of goofy dwarf macho games.

Darn - too granola to come up with anything for...

TB - def here have some strength games...

UC - I am unsure, but def the place needs to be made a lot creepier... i would love it if it were a bit dangerous, but that's me... but definitely some creepy stuff




Again, it would be great if they were NOT like present 100% of the time. That helps with appreciating them when they do occur.

It can start simpler at first - without a chat, because that's some more effort. It can just be more NPCs without any other purpose than walking around. Some market stands with an NPC behind and NPCs walking around, stopping, looking, having a chat animation with the seller and moving on.

Pretty much all settlements in the game, big or small look like they have precisely the amount of NPCs that only have some functionality useful to the player.

Like Goldshire for example - it's just an inn and a smithy... and that's supposed to be a village. I know there is one building by the lake and Turtle WoW has added a few more, but there can be a few houses scattered around with some pointless NPCs just walking about, this can be applied to all settlements.

Especially Booty Bay should see some real expansions in all departments, I think it's the go-to neutral hub in the game, but it can definitely use some expanding - 1-2 more levels, more NPCs, class trainers, arena/battleground NPCs, maybe some dungeon like Booty Bay Sewers for levels 35-45 and a lot of new quests.

Booty Bay dungeon sounds great

[Noemad]

Booty Bay should definitely get some love. I'd imagine it much like the famed town of Tortuga! There could be a few ships that are actually permanently anchored in the bay, and we could see pirate npc's from different pirate groups in the town, at the inn etc. Notable pirate groups are Blacksail Crew, Blackwater Raiders, Bloodsail Buccanneers, Dread Crew, Southsea Freebooters, Northsea Freebooters.

[Hamstercrack93]

Lot of fun ideas!

Out of curiosity: what load does one NPC add? Does the draw distance on Turtle add to it? Would be interesting to know. Can a city add 20 or 200 NPCs without affecting performance? How does LOS affect it?

A possible approach is to go for a rough number of new NPCs based on game performance with them added. Take that number and divide it between different roles. See examples below. For such roles, most NPCs should be of the race that fits the city or settlement. One or a few that stands out are fun.
To help devs, long list of names could be set up so can easily name all that’s needed. If 100+ names for each race is made, there is plenty to chose from and just be crossed out once used.
Another help could be random conversations. Long enough and reusing would not be a worry.


Traders/Vendors
Small stalls or waking around selling simple wares. Can group together in squares, streets etc.

Crafters
Small stalls. All professions represented. As above, can group together.

Visitors
Walking around. Talking to city guards. Can exclaim wonder or snarky comments. Mainly other races relative to the city.

Shoppers
Walking around. Stopping at various vendors. Conversations with shopkeepers. Alone or in pairs.
Not around at night.

Old People
Walking around. Taking to each other. Can sit outside homes, watching people go by.
Not around at night.

Porters/Messengers
Carrying things, some running etc

Laborers
Simple clothing, doing various tasks, in groups or alone, some can sit at building site and have a break, can be a foreman with others working

Rich people
Rich clothing, can have guards or servants, snooty comments

Kids
Often in groups. Running around, playing.
Not around at night.

Priests
Wandering around, giving help, can randomly heal injured players

Beggars
Sitting here and there. Can be questioned by guards.

Prisoners
In stocks, behind bars, in shackles next to guards etc. Can moan or beg or curse

Shady people
In certain areas. Rude and/or offering to sell illegal goods.
Several more at night

Party people
Mainly evenings and nights. Raising the roof

Drunks
One or two, shambling around

Entertainers
Musicians, dancers, snake charmers, etc. Perhaps only afternoon and evenings.

Orators
Holding speeches. Naturally standing on a box.

Arcane users
Mages walking around, some doing something esoteric

Warlocks
In less common areas, hanging around or talking. Demons following them, casting spells, rituals etc

Special encounters

• Guards chasing a thief
  Angry mob shouting at someone
  Angry mob listening to trouble maker
  Group listening to preacher
  Kids/students listening to a teacher
  Theater performance with small audience
  Strange vendors: uncommon goods
  Charlatans: rigged chance games, selling snake oil etc (item is blue and cheap but when buys it is grey and n inventory)
  Spies or intruders (other faction, trolls, Defias etc), in stealth
  Attack: desperate attack by something found in the area. Better for small settlements. Quest to help out.
  Robbery (in shady spot). Help me quest?
  Plague: 30 or 60 min mild debuff that spreads to any NPC that comes near. Gone 24 hours if not cleansed. Quest to help out.
  Ghosts haunting an attic or cellar around midnight. Quest to find out if happens: have to wait for midnight and quest given during day.
  Rat infestation in a house or area & rat catcher shows up 12-24 hours later. Can be quest meanwhile to kill rats.
  Group of people around two people boxing, people betting
  Ghouls in a graveyard at night
  Dead person, guards nearby telling people to move along and/or stand back

Sewers
Any fantasy city is not complete without them. Adding sewers to SW would be great. I don’t think it would suit Orgrimmar. However, you could add other tunnels there. Like RFC, but not an instance.

I’m the sewers of SW add rats, random monsters, thieves etc and perhaps tunnels with kobolds or such that has tunneled in.
For tunnels in Orgrimmar the same but different variety.

[Bisbyhoughton]

Just popping in to express support for something along the lines of these ideas, hardware permitting etc.

[Aubreykun]

I don't think the GTA-style of lots of "useless" NPCs is the way to go. It can actually make a city feel less-alive because the NPCs end up being just decoration. No personality, no sense of life, just robots.

There is a limit to how much an individual can visually process. Increasing the amount of complexity in the cities isn't necessarily good.
If you check from 9:31 in this video (timecode linked) he explains what I mean in a more entertaining way.


Consider how WoW's cities feel pretty alive already - there are all kinds of "useless" vendors and shops that sell nothing of importance like white gear and specific foods. There are some "empty" buildings for players to use for RP or which blizz added other NPCs to over the course of vanilla (and onward, but that's offtopic.) The random citizens are, for the most part, named. Some of them have eventual uses like Jordan Stilwell and Wilder Thisthlenettle, others are simply recognizable characters that spout voice lines like Topper McNabb or the girls discussing magic in the SW Mage Quarter. And don't forget the guards.

Contrast with how many other MMOs go too far in the other direction by creating huge cities where almost none of it is explorable, basically giant hallways with some vendors that sell only useful items, with few actual interiors.

I think that if the devs were to "liven up" the cities, then the priorities should be on Darnassus and Thunder Bluff as these are the least-lively. SW has already had a ton of extra work put into it by the turtle staff, and I should probably mention that due to the way it's connected, Alah'thalas is basically a new "district" of SW.

[Lichenwitch]

i second Aubreykun here. there are all already acutally a lot of unique NPCs just there for the flavor. and adding to Darnassus and TB to make those places feel more alive and "lived-in" would be most welcome