tauren priests?

[Kokorogensou]

possibly something to consider in terms of Horde class balancing (in vanilla, only trolls and undead can be priests; alliance side, all races sans gnomes can be priests) and possibly giving the tauren some more flavor lore. this was brought up in the Discord server a couple times by other members, but i wanted to make a post here to explain things in a more concise manner.

admittedly this does have basis in post-Cata retail, though i'm only using it as a lore-wise standpoint since i don't want to suggest more radical additions like the tauren paladins.

there was a quest in WOTLK where two tauren NPCs discussed the night elves and their worship of the moon, and how that carried on to the tauren druids. the tauren are a people of balance in nature, and it's brought up that they may have overlooked a key aspect of that balance; the sun and moon are the "eyes" of the Earthmother that the tauren venerate (this aspect is mentioned in the lore scrolls in the Elder Rise), but only the moon has been focused upon because of the druids. these NPCs would later be the origin point of the sunwalkers (paladins) and seers (priests) amongst tauren society, with both classes representing An'she (the sun) as a parallel to the druids and Mu'sha (the moon).

i haven't thought about priest racial spells on this end, but perhaps something that fits the seers' worship of the sun would be interesting?

i dunno, just tossing out a few dumb thoughts of mine! :'D

[Lahire]

All that are innovations years after Warcraft 3 canon. When you look at who taurens are in WC3 and vanilla, priest would make no sense, as their priests are : shamans and druids. Functionally, those classes are the priests of the tauren society.

"Balance" for class repartition is a trap. It only goes in one way : homogenization of the two factions and of all races into the same gameplay blurb. Strangely enough, players never ask for the removal of a combo race-class when they talk about "balance". This word is mostly used as a rhetorical fallacy to push anti-rpg design decisions.

[Mac]

"Holy cow" jokes aside, if Trolls can be priests, then I don't know, maybe Tauren can be priests, too. Would be nice to see Tauren get another class.

[Lahire]

"Holy cow" jokes aside, if Trolls can be priests, then I don't know, maybe Tauren can be priests, too. Would be nice to see Tauren get another class.

Trolls are literally "priests" in WC3. There are the mob "troll shadow priest", the "troll high priest", the witch doctor, etc. Taurens have not the same culture as trolls at all.

It's stranger that trolls have shamans, but it must be because the thematic link between shaman and totem was not established in WC3 (orc shaman didn't have any totem while troll witch doctor had some "wards"). The witch doctor is priest-like, as is the shadow hunter ("voodoo", healing, etc) ; they are the playable versions of the "troll priests" mobs.

But when the designers unified shamanism for wow into one class, they logically merged witch doctor, spirit walker and shaman, as they were from the same "spirit" building in WC3. So all 3 races obtained "shaman" though it doesn't perfectly fit trolls.

[Mac]

Trolls are literally "priests" in WC3.

Sure but then Taurens are also literally "priests" in WC3.

http://classic.battle.net/war3/orc/unit ... lker.shtml

Mystical Tauren caster with Ethereal Form, which allows him to avoid physical damage. Believed to be the ill omen of a coming age, white Tauren are held in near reverence by their people, often becoming reclusive priests who wander the land in search of kindred spirits. Attacks land and air units.

[Sinrek]

No.

We do not touch those atrocities committed by ActiBlizzurd.

[Kokorogensou]

All that are innovations years after Warcraft 3 canon. When you look at who taurens are in WC3 and vanilla, priest would make no sense, as their priests are : shamans and druids. Functionally, those classes are the priests of the tauren society.

"Balance" for class repartition is a trap. It only goes in one way : homogenization of the two factions and of all races into the same gameplay blurb. Strangely enough, players never ask for the removal of a combo race-class when they talk about "balance". This word is mostly used as a rhetorical fallacy to push anti-rpg design decisions.

fair enough! honestly never looked at it from specifically that perspective; was mostly too focused on the "lore" angle of it. post-vanilla lore tends to have a lot of issues, but the quest i mentioned in the original post still sticks a lot to me especially with how it ties into the tauren lore (or ended up becoming, knowing how actiblizzion handles it nowadays).

No.

We do not touch those atrocities committed by ActiBlizzurd.

this is also fair in all honesty, lmao

tauren paladins still seem "too much" to me years after cata brought them in. paladin class aesthetics just never fit the tauren at all.

[Raukodor]

So... A tauren priest would be a holy cow??

[Mac]

No.

We do not touch those atrocities committed by ActiBlizzurd.

So no more Gnome Hunters? Bummer.

[Lukkas462]

i vote YES for Holy Cow

[Kazgrim]

A tauren priest makes as much sense as a troll priest.

The term priest is ambiguous. It's not just a follower of the Holy Light, nor a worshipper of Elune. It's a term to designate a magic user that uses DIVINE magic. Do shamans or druids use divine magic? They do not.

The closest thing to priests in tauren culture are spiritwalkers, who are imbued with the powers of their spirit ancestors. The source of their power is arguably divine, if you consider spirits from the afterlife as divine creatures.

The class mechanics of priest in WoW are not exactly those you'd expect of a spiritwalker, but then again the mechanics don't make sense for most of the races.

Possible tauren racials? There's two they could use.

http://classic.battle.net/war3/orc/unit ... lker.shtml

[Raukodor]

A spirit link skill would be great.

[Merikkinon]

Kaz with the logic argument. Interesting one, too.

Except that by nature, the WoW 'races' are pulling much of their inspiration from various earth cultures. The Tauren represent, as I understand it, cultures that were focused and connected to the earth, and did not have quite the traditional 'divinity' conceptions as other, later cultures developed. In essence, their holiness was shaman-centric, not priest-centric (nothing to do with classical divinity).

[Mac]

Except that by nature, the WoW 'races' are pulling much of their inspiration from various earth cultures. The Tauren represent, as I understand it, cultures that were focused and connected to the earth, and did not have quite the traditional 'divinity' conceptions as other, later cultures developed. In essence, their holiness was shaman-centric, not priest-centric (nothing to do with classical divinity).

Tauren have the Earth Mother. Here's an excerpt on The Earth Mother from Horde Player's Guide:

The Earth Mother is the tauren ideal of all the spirits of nature. The Earth Mother lives in the rivers, trees,
plains and mountains of Azeroth. She is the embodiment of nature. All lesser nature spirits come from the
Earth Mother, and return to her upon death.
In a sense, tauren see the Earth Mother as a sort of universal consciousness. While individual spirits represent
a particular location, animal or object, such as the spirit of a single tree, or the spirit of a valley, the Earth
Mother represents the land. She is everywhere life and nature is.
The only spirits separate from the Earth Mother are the spirits of sentient creatures. Tauren ancestor spirits
live in harmony with the Earth Mother, but are not a part of her.
Tauren religion teaches to respect and love the Earth Mother by treating her body, the land, and her children,
the plants and animals of the world, with respect. Tauren disrupt the natural balance of the land as little as
possible. They take only what they need from the land and eschew mass logging and mining. They respect the
animals they hunt and never wastefully discard animal carcasses.
Priests of the Earth Mother can gain access to the Animal, Elements and Spirits domains.

And yes, they mention Priests of the Earth Mother at the end.

And here's an in-game book telling a religious creation myth type story about the Earth Mother wherein she is very much written as a divine deity.

[Sinrek]

No.

We do not touch those atrocities committed by ActiBlizzurd.

So no more Gnome Hunters? Bummer.

You don't make sense. Gnome hunters, despite my own disgust at the idea of such a class, was planned and scrapped in beta just like dwarf mages.

[Lahire]

"Priests of the Earth Mother can gain access to the Animal, Elements and Spirits domains."

Literally Spirit Walker = shamans.
WC1 to WC3 vocabulary for lore is a bit in a state of flux, because of the philosophy "gameplay first" (which often also means "lore ? I don't care write anything"). They sometimes switch one word for the other, or have common concepts that were made more specific afterwards (like totems/wards used by priests in WC3 and then given to shamans).

But in this sentence, I don't see how it could be understood any other way than a reference to the tauren spirit walker, which is a basis of inspiration for the wow shaman class. again, troll priests are nominally in the WC3 game. While tauren "priests" are not in the game, and here are clearly shaman-like. The tauren Earth/Ancestors religion is just a reimagination of american shamanism afterall.

[Mac]

You don't make sense.

It was a joke.

"Priests of the Earth Mother can gain access to the Animal, Elements and Spirits domains."

Literally Spirit Walker = shamans.
WC1 to WC3 vocabulary for lore is a bit in a state of flux,

That wasn't "WC1 to WC3 vocabulary" because that book came out in 2006 during WoW Vanilla. The Priest it's discussing is the Priest from WoW (or more specifically, the pen and paper equivalent).

[Reploidrocsa]

if it were for me, i would make druids&paladins Alliance only while Shamans&Warlocks horde only.

[Lahire]

if it were for me, i would make druids&paladins Alliance only while Shamans&Warlocks horde only.

+1.
Would not be received well by most players, but would be far more thematic.

[Afaslizo]

Before I even consider Tauren priests I sooner consider Tauren mages because of the Tauren boss in Blackrock Depths. He might be Twilight Hammer but since that cult actually should prefer Shadow Priests it appears that Taurens are not able to become them else he would have been one. So in-game example dictates that arcane and elemental magic is far mor likely than priesthood.

I agree though that Tauren Mage is a bit silly. There is not really any additional existing class that fits with the Tauren race at the moment. If Turtle ever adds any custom classes that might change but I don't see that happen.

[Augustfenix85]

Tauren Rogue would be my preferred choice. But with the melee hunter addition coming I can settle for that.

If anything with a horde race getting priests I could see Orc only because of where they are from and maybe learning from the lost one Draenai

[Rafale]

Please no, Spirit Walkers are shamans and tauren shamans gonna have spirit link anyway.

[Kazgrim]

Spiritwalkers are not classical WoW shamans. They are mystics, which deal with the afterlife and the spirits of their ancestors. Classical WoW shamans deal with elemental spirits, forces of nature. They do not focus on communing with the dead, whereas Spiritwalkers do.

[Merikkinon]

if it were for me, i would make druids&paladins Alliance only while Shamans&Warlocks horde only.

.

Absolutely.

Inclusion-ism is overrated, under-perceived as to its capacity to dilute story, lore, gaming, etc.

[Kalocsa]

No.

We do not touch those atrocities committed by ActiBlizzurd.

God bless you Sinrek, you'll go to paradise i ensure you.

[Lahire]

Tauren Rogue would be my preferred choice.

Sure the 2m10 cow with big stomping hooves can be sneaky lmao.
Good joke.

Spiritwalkers are not classical WoW shamans. They are mystics, which deal with the afterlife and the spirits of their ancestors. Classical WoW shamans deal with elemental spirits, forces of nature. They do not focus on communing with the dead, whereas Spiritwalkers do.

As WoW shaman is a fusion of the 3 WC3 spirit units, this aspect is present in the class too. WoW shaman isn't just elements, it also has a rez that references the Ancestors (Ancestral Spirit) ; it has the Ankh ; it has Chain Heal that resembles the Chain Link. And all the textbox in game about the ancestors, the spirit world, etc.
This aspect has been reinforced during retail (spirit form...), but it was ofc present since vanilla. This class is really a mash up :
- Totems are from the troll witch doctor
- Ancestral Spirit, chain heal, ancestral lore from the tauren spirit walker
- All the elemental stuff + purge from the orc shaman
- Ankh is from tauren chieftain
- the troll hero has the same thematic (chain heal and ward)

This thematic, which can be called "tribal magic", was a continuum during WC3 used to inspire more than 1 class (priest has parts of it). It's not 1 = 1, but most aspects of wow shaman come from this tribal theme.

[Mac]

Tauren Rogue would be my preferred choice. But with the melee hunter addition coming I can settle for that.

A tauren rogue isn't as completely, totally, 100% outlandish as some people might think given that Grimtotem bandits and Grimtotem ruffians are in game, although you could argue they aren't strictly rogues. So only, like, 99% outlandish.

Before I even consider Tauren priests I sooner consider Tauren mages because of the Tauren boss in Blackrock Depths. He might be Twilight Hammer but since that cult actually should prefer Shadow Priests it appears that Taurens are not able to become them else he would have been one. So in-game example dictates that arcane and elemental magic is far mor likely than priesthood.

I agree though that Tauren Mage is a bit silly. There is not really any additional existing class that fits with the Tauren race at the moment. If Turtle ever adds any custom classes that might change but I don't see that happen.

There's also Grimtotem sorcerers and Grimtotem geomancers in game to support tauren mages. Maybe we could get tauren mages and dwarf mages at the exact same time.

[Kazgrim]

Yes, a WoW shaman is a jack of trades master of none. Whether you classify a spiritwalker as a shaman or a priest, it doesn't really matter because the spiritwalker is not entirely either. The term shaman, like you've pointed out, is ambiguous and is an umbrella term. When it comes to tribal races, a shaman and a priest are the same thing (until you make the distinction when it comes to communing with the elements) - which is why you often see people saying a troll shaman or priest can fulfill the role of a witch doctor.

[Lahire]

Yes ; and it was consciously that the designers didn't do a 1=1 between WC3 and WoW. Most wow classes are a generic "umbrella" for a spectrum of warcraft characters. For example, Warrior represents Demon Hunter, Blademaster, but also the grunt, the footman, etc. All these styles are part of the warrior identity and you can reconstruct analogs of them with the talent and gear systems.

K. Jordan says this decision was conscious. Because by doing it this way, the designers thought it would stimulate more the fantasy and imagination of players. Instead of accepting a narrow identity (for ex: "Spirit Walker"), the player can reconstruct it with their own class/talent/race/gear choices, or build something entirely new.
This is good design.

I think they didn't entirely succeeded applying this rule to all the classes though. The paladin is a narrow fantasy : it's Uther and that's it. As the priest has a shadow spec to simulate troll and undead cultures, they imo should have done a "fallen paladin" spec to simulate Arthas ; a death knight spec if you will. But well, it wasn't ever discussed apparently (DK was thought as a "heroic class").

[Kazgrim]

iirc a developer did mention their desire to introduce hero classes or at least spells reminiscent of wc3 heroes at level 40. That would've been a cool transition to see a paladin become a death knight.

[Lahire]

iirc a developer did mention their desire to introduce hero classes or at least spells reminiscent of wc3 heroes at level 40. That would've been a cool transition to see a paladin become a death knight.

Before the talent system was created, the designers dabbled with the idea of "hero class" (demon hunter notably). It would have been a specialization at the end of leveling you could take from quests, to bring your character into a more narrow but more powerful class, more like the WC3 heroes.
It was dimmed too linear and not interesting enough. So it was abandoned. After iterations, they invented a far more creative system : the talent trees (which is imo a revolutionary system for the RPG genre that influenced numerous games).

The new team took again the concept of "hero class" during WotLK with the Death Knight, but in a new way : the player unlocks the ability to create a new character of this hero class which doesn't begin at lvl 1 and is more powerful than most classes.
My opinion is the WotLK take on the hero class is not a great idea.

My take is : the "hero class" is an appealing concept on paper (hence the fact it was tried multiple times) but it is extremely difficult to pull off correctly. The best implementation of it imo is the Jedi class in Star Wars Galaxy : so hard and long to obtain that it was miraculous when 1 player had it. If half the player base is a "hero class", it loses all meaning.
But of course, each player wants to be the hero of their own story, so they all ask to obtain the hero class more easily. It produces a conflict between players and designers, and frustration (see what happened during Galaxy). Either the designers give in to the players and the game becomes a herofest (with lost of integrity to the game), or the designers don't give in and players rant endlessly : so the "hero class" concept is better left untouched...

[Warmane]

No.

We do not touch those atrocities committed by ActiBlizzurd.

you guys litteraly copied some spells from Wotlk in the changes coming with 1.16

[Siinda]

I would love to see paladin and shaman go cross faction officially as playable chars. Tauren paladins are cannon in actiV world and even go with the "pulled from human cultures" logic idea. I wouldn't recommend them as first choice myself but if I have to be a sun worshipping cow to play horde paladin I would get beefy with it.

[Sinrek]

No.

We do not touch those atrocities committed by ActiBlizzurd.

you guys litteraly copied some spells from Wotlk in the changes coming with 1.16

Bring up examples.

[Gheor]

No.

We do not touch those atrocities committed by ActiBlizzurd.

you guys litteraly copied some spells from Wotlk in the changes coming with 1.16

The spells were created from scratch to fit Vanilla.

Even if our spellmaker took inspiration from another expansion they were not downported or copy pasted.