tauren priests?

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Kokorogensou
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tauren priests?

Post by Kokorogensou » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:08 pm

possibly something to consider in terms of Horde class balancing (in vanilla, only trolls and undead can be priests; alliance side, all races sans gnomes can be priests) and possibly giving the tauren some more flavor lore. this was brought up in the Discord server a couple times by other members, but i wanted to make a post here to explain things in a more concise manner.

admittedly this does have basis in post-Cata retail, though i'm only using it as a lore-wise standpoint since i don't want to suggest more radical additions like the tauren paladins.

there was a quest in WOTLK where two tauren NPCs discussed the night elves and their worship of the moon, and how that carried on to the tauren druids. the tauren are a people of balance in nature, and it's brought up that they may have overlooked a key aspect of that balance; the sun and moon are the "eyes" of the Earthmother that the tauren venerate (this aspect is mentioned in the lore scrolls in the Elder Rise), but only the moon has been focused upon because of the druids. these NPCs would later be the origin point of the sunwalkers (paladins) and seers (priests) amongst tauren society, with both classes representing An'she (the sun) as a parallel to the druids and Mu'sha (the moon).

i haven't thought about priest racial spells on this end, but perhaps something that fits the seers' worship of the sun would be interesting?

i dunno, just tossing out a few dumb thoughts of mine! :'D

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Lahire
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Re: tauren priests?

Post by Lahire » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:19 pm

All that are innovations years after Warcraft 3 canon. When you look at who taurens are in WC3 and vanilla, priest would make no sense, as their priests are : shamans and druids. Functionally, those classes are the priests of the tauren society.

"Balance" for class repartition is a trap. It only goes in one way : homogenization of the two factions and of all races into the same gameplay blurb. Strangely enough, players never ask for the removal of a combo race-class when they talk about "balance". This word is mostly used as a rhetorical fallacy to push anti-rpg design decisions.
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Mac
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Re: tauren priests?

Post by Mac » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:44 pm

"Holy cow" jokes aside, if Trolls can be priests, then I don't know, maybe Tauren can be priests, too. Would be nice to see Tauren get another class.

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Lahire
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Re: tauren priests?

Post by Lahire » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:20 pm

Mac wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:44 pm
"Holy cow" jokes aside, if Trolls can be priests, then I don't know, maybe Tauren can be priests, too. Would be nice to see Tauren get another class.
Trolls are literally "priests" in WC3. There are the mob "troll shadow priest", the "troll high priest", the witch doctor, etc. Taurens have not the same culture as trolls at all.

It's stranger that trolls have shamans, but it must be because the thematic link between shaman and totem was not established in WC3 (orc shaman didn't have any totem while troll witch doctor had some "wards"). The witch doctor is priest-like, as is the shadow hunter ("voodoo", healing, etc) ; they are the playable versions of the "troll priests" mobs.

But when the designers unified shamanism for wow into one class, they logically merged witch doctor, spirit walker and shaman, as they were from the same "spirit" building in WC3. So all 3 races obtained "shaman" though it doesn't perfectly fit trolls.
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Mac
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Re: tauren priests?

Post by Mac » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:38 pm

Lahire wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:20 pm
Trolls are literally "priests" in WC3.
Sure but then Taurens are also literally "priests" in WC3.

http://classic.battle.net/war3/orc/unit ... lker.shtml
Mystical Tauren caster with Ethereal Form, which allows him to avoid physical damage. Believed to be the ill omen of a coming age, white Tauren are held in near reverence by their people, often becoming reclusive priests who wander the land in search of kindred spirits. Attacks land and air units.

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Sinrek
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Re: tauren priests?

Post by Sinrek » Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:22 pm

No.

We do not touch those atrocities committed by ActiBlizzurd.
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Kokorogensou
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Re: tauren priests?

Post by Kokorogensou » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:45 pm

Lahire wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:19 pm
All that are innovations years after Warcraft 3 canon. When you look at who taurens are in WC3 and vanilla, priest would make no sense, as their priests are : shamans and druids. Functionally, those classes are the priests of the tauren society.

"Balance" for class repartition is a trap. It only goes in one way : homogenization of the two factions and of all races into the same gameplay blurb. Strangely enough, players never ask for the removal of a combo race-class when they talk about "balance". This word is mostly used as a rhetorical fallacy to push anti-rpg design decisions.
fair enough! honestly never looked at it from specifically that perspective; was mostly too focused on the "lore" angle of it. post-vanilla lore tends to have a lot of issues, but the quest i mentioned in the original post still sticks a lot to me especially with how it ties into the tauren lore (or ended up becoming, knowing how actiblizzion handles it nowadays).
Sinrek wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:22 pm
No.

We do not touch those atrocities committed by ActiBlizzurd.
this is also fair in all honesty, lmao

tauren paladins still seem "too much" to me years after cata brought them in. paladin class aesthetics just never fit the tauren at all.

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Raukodor
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Re: tauren priests?

Post by Raukodor » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:11 pm

So... A tauren priest would be a holy cow??
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Mac
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Re: tauren priests?

Post by Mac » Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:10 am

Sinrek wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:22 pm
No.

We do not touch those atrocities committed by ActiBlizzurd.
So no more Gnome Hunters? Bummer.

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Lukkas462
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Re: tauren priests?

Post by Lukkas462 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:02 am

i vote YES for Holy Cow
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Kazgrim
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Re: tauren priests?

Post by Kazgrim » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:09 am

A tauren priest makes as much sense as a troll priest.

The term priest is ambiguous. It's not just a follower of the Holy Light, nor a worshipper of Elune. It's a term to designate a magic user that uses DIVINE magic. Do shamans or druids use divine magic? They do not.

The closest thing to priests in tauren culture are spiritwalkers, who are imbued with the powers of their spirit ancestors. The source of their power is arguably divine, if you consider spirits from the afterlife as divine creatures.

The class mechanics of priest in WoW are not exactly those you'd expect of a spiritwalker, but then again the mechanics don't make sense for most of the races.

Possible tauren racials? There's two they could use.

http://classic.battle.net/war3/orc/unit ... lker.shtml
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Raukodor
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Re: tauren priests?

Post by Raukodor » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:30 am

A spirit link skill would be great.
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Merikkinon
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Re: tauren priests?

Post by Merikkinon » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:54 am

Kaz with the logic argument. Interesting one, too.

Except that by nature, the WoW 'races' are pulling much of their inspiration from various earth cultures. The Tauren represent, as I understand it, cultures that were focused and connected to the earth, and did not have quite the traditional 'divinity' conceptions as other, later cultures developed. In essence, their holiness was shaman-centric, not priest-centric (nothing to do with classical divinity).

Mac
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Re: tauren priests?

Post by Mac » Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:50 am

Merikkinon wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:54 am
Except that by nature, the WoW 'races' are pulling much of their inspiration from various earth cultures. The Tauren represent, as I understand it, cultures that were focused and connected to the earth, and did not have quite the traditional 'divinity' conceptions as other, later cultures developed. In essence, their holiness was shaman-centric, not priest-centric (nothing to do with classical divinity).
Tauren have the Earth Mother. Here's an excerpt on The Earth Mother from Horde Player's Guide:
The Earth Mother is the tauren ideal of all the spirits of nature. The Earth Mother lives in the rivers, trees,
plains and mountains of Azeroth. She is the embodiment of nature. All lesser nature spirits come from the
Earth Mother, and return to her upon death.
In a sense, tauren see the Earth Mother as a sort of universal consciousness. While individual spirits represent
a particular location, animal or object, such as the spirit of a single tree, or the spirit of a valley, the Earth
Mother represents the land. She is everywhere life and nature is.
The only spirits separate from the Earth Mother are the spirits of sentient creatures. Tauren ancestor spirits
live in harmony with the Earth Mother, but are not a part of her.
Tauren religion teaches to respect and love the Earth Mother by treating her body, the land, and her children,
the plants and animals of the world, with respect. Tauren disrupt the natural balance of the land as little as
possible. They take only what they need from the land and eschew mass logging and mining. They respect the
animals they hunt and never wastefully discard animal carcasses.
Priests of the Earth Mother can gain access to the Animal, Elements and Spirits domains.
And yes, they mention Priests of the Earth Mother at the end.

And here's an in-game book telling a religious creation myth type story about the Earth Mother wherein she is very much written as a divine deity.

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Sinrek
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Re: tauren priests?

Post by Sinrek » Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:52 am

Mac wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:10 am
Sinrek wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:22 pm
No.

We do not touch those atrocities committed by ActiBlizzurd.
So no more Gnome Hunters? Bummer.
You don't make sense. Gnome hunters, despite my own disgust at the idea of such a class, was planned and scrapped in beta just like dwarf mages.
satisfied_turtle Slowly turtling my way up.

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Lahire
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Re: tauren priests?

Post by Lahire » Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:27 am

"Priests of the Earth Mother can gain access to the Animal, Elements and Spirits domains."

Literally Spirit Walker = shamans.
WC1 to WC3 vocabulary for lore is a bit in a state of flux, because of the philosophy "gameplay first" (which often also means "lore ? I don't care write anything"). They sometimes switch one word for the other, or have common concepts that were made more specific afterwards (like totems/wards used by priests in WC3 and then given to shamans).

But in this sentence, I don't see how it could be understood any other way than a reference to the tauren spirit walker, which is a basis of inspiration for the wow shaman class. again, troll priests are nominally in the WC3 game. While tauren "priests" are not in the game, and here are clearly shaman-like. The tauren Earth/Ancestors religion is just a reimagination of american shamanism afterall.
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Mac
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Re: tauren priests?

Post by Mac » Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:52 am

Sinrek wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:52 am
You don't make sense.
It was a joke.
Lahire wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:27 am
"Priests of the Earth Mother can gain access to the Animal, Elements and Spirits domains."

Literally Spirit Walker = shamans.
WC1 to WC3 vocabulary for lore is a bit in a state of flux,
That wasn't "WC1 to WC3 vocabulary" because that book came out in 2006 during WoW Vanilla. The Priest it's discussing is the Priest from WoW (or more specifically, the pen and paper equivalent).

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Reploidrocsa
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Re: tauren priests?

Post by Reploidrocsa » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:48 am

if it were for me, i would make druids&paladins Alliance only while Shamans&Warlocks horde only.

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Lahire
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Re: tauren priests?

Post by Lahire » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:02 am

Reploidrocsa wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:48 am
if it were for me, i would make druids&paladins Alliance only while Shamans&Warlocks horde only.
+1.
Would not be received well by most players, but would be far more thematic.
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Afaslizo
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Re: tauren priests?

Post by Afaslizo » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:13 pm

Before I even consider Tauren priests I sooner consider Tauren mages because of the Tauren boss in Blackrock Depths. He might be Twilight Hammer but since that cult actually should prefer Shadow Priests it appears that Taurens are not able to become them else he would have been one. So in-game example dictates that arcane and elemental magic is far mor likely than priesthood.

I agree though that Tauren Mage is a bit silly. There is not really any additional existing class that fits with the Tauren race at the moment. If Turtle ever adds any custom classes that might change but I don't see that happen.

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