Changes to MELEE HUNTER

[Raukodor]

HELLO turtle Friends. Im very happy with new changes. BUT as a melee hunter player i think still needs a big update for being real viable

First of all. Melee hunter needs shoot. Even being survival melee is very few% of your damage

So if you wanna make it FULL melee and remove all shoot needs a big upgrade.

-wolf aspect: gives 120 ap but you cant shoot.
Low buff for losing all ranged damage. And melee hunter need dodge too.(that you get from monkey aspect)
Instead only 120 ap maybe a good buff to agility (wich guives +ap and +dodge). Wolf aspect Needs a BIG upgrade to be worth of losing all range capability. You are not a warrior. Maybe +100% agility so get enough ap and dodge to be strong enough (remember. You lose all ranged skill)

-buff melee skills: old.lacerate. mongoose and counterattack does crap damage and domt scale at all. Even if they crit. Need a buff damage or better scaling with ap

-more melee skills:melee hunter have very few melee skills. Most are situational and requires to dodge. Maybe turn your shoots into melee skills would be a good idea. (Serpent strike. Multi strike. Arcane strike.... And melee hunter mark)

-still not a real melee class. Admit it. Hunter is not a.pure melee class. And being survival dont fixt that. Maybe adding something like flurry (+attack speed when crit) or something that reduces the cd.of.melee.strikes (a survival hunter does almost same damage in melee than a Bm or MM.) Or even make survival hunter able to put traps in combat

Those would be my fixes to do a melee hunter more viable if wanna make a full melee class

IN SHORT:
Changes i think it needs:
1-make wolf aspect give a good bonus to agility.to be worth lose all ranged capability
2- Buff melee skills scaling with ap
3- Turn ranged skills into melee strikes (not only mongoose/raptor spam)
4-allow use traps in combat and maybe give him flurry like warriors


What do you think??

[Augustfenix85]

While I like the idea of traps in combat, it would have to be something like the Rogue’s Improved Sap in talents to be fair.
Maybe add it into the talent Trap Mastery

Also I can see serpent sting have a melee option: serpent strike

[Valadorn]

You do realize you can instantly swap between aspects? Use normal ones till enemy gets close, activate Wolf till you murder it, and change Back to whatever other aspect you were using to shoot. Repeat o.o


What you are suggesting would overpower any other melee class.

[Darreno]

While I like the idea of traps in combat, it would have to be something like the Rogue’s Improved Sap in talents to be fair.
Maybe add it into the talent Trap Mastery

Also I can see serpent sting have a melee option: serpent strike

A melee hunter does cast Serpent Sting as part of a PvE DPS rotation in raids. But I understand what you mean.

[Raukodor]

But mana is not eternal. Changing froms aspect to aspect. And feinging death to cast trap.in combat will drain your mana

[Raukodor]

And what about a temporary debuff that makes you unable to shoot when you change from wolf aspect

[Melhist2]

Since you lose all you range attacks, at least aspect of wolf should let you strike mongose bite without Dodge. And it wuld be good if mongose bite had weapon damage or some kind of scale.
Or raptor strike shuld be instant and not bind to autoatack

[Raukodor]

Melee hunter attacks hits like my dead grandmother....need a real big buff and scale with ap

[Raukodor]

And still a survival hunter most personal damage comes from shoots.

So wolf aspect needs a REAL upgrade to be worth of losing all ranged capability

[Raukodor]

Hey can we get at least melee hunter skills scale with ap and cause +weapon damage? To do a significative damage

[Celaris]

I agree that melee hunter won't be viable with these changes and they definitely need something

[Raukodor]

Any response to this? More melee hunters agree?

[Merikkinon]

But mana is not eternal. Changing froms aspect to aspect. And feinging death to cast trap.in combat will drain your mana

So... maybe there needs to be a talent that decreases mana costs for changing aspects? It would seem to me that melee hunters (and I've never played one so take that with a grain of salt in my commentary) would be the 'stance-dancers' of the hunter world?

To me, that would be appealing (a talent to encourage aspects shifts by melee hunters).

[Allwynd01]

But mana is not eternal. Changing froms aspect to aspect. And feinging death to cast trap.in combat will drain your mana

So... maybe there needs to be a talent that decreases mana costs for changing aspects? It would seem to me that melee hunters (and I've never played one so take that with a grain of salt in my commentary) would be the 'stance-dancers' of the hunter world?

To me, that would be appealing (a talent to encourage aspects shifts by melee hunters).

I think switching between aspects is not a viable way to play a hunter, it would make it very much like Warrior Stances or Paladin Auras. There needs to be something really unique about Hunter that sets them apart from the other classes.

From what I've read about WoW's development, the Hunter was the most unique class and the one the developers poured the most love into.

[Projecx]

How about replacing Shoot for something like Pounce that would work more like a warrior's Charge but would not have a minimum range.

Also allow hunters to equip Bucklers in offhand.

[Merikkinon]

I think switching between aspects is not a viable way to play a hunter, it would make it very much like Warrior Stances or Paladin Auras. There needs to be something really unique about Hunter that sets them apart from the other classes.

From what I've read about WoW's development, the Hunter was the most unique class and the one the developers poured the most love into.

Fair enough, although the stance-dancing of warriors is going to calm down quite a bit here soon.

But I do think hunters always need to be at a significant disadvantage in melee, given their incredible advantage at range. Otherwise, their dominance is out of control.

But I leave it to you all to determine how that is best manifested while making MELEE a cool spec. I know I would want to try it, so get to work. ;)

[Mikecrow]

I do agree with the traps in combat part and wolf aspect being redudant, it should just be a talent that augments aspect of the monkey to disable ranged attacks but grant bonus melee attack power so you get the dodge too. Nobody out here wants to swap between a bland aspect of the monkey or an attack power buff.

as far as the melee ability thing goes, that remains to be seen whether or not they are strong enough but they should make a talent that periodically causes you to proc counterattack without parrying like maybe a % of the time when you use mongoose bite or dodge an attack to promote monkey synergy? Maybe a talent that causes raptor strike to increase the damage of mongoose bite?

[Snigery]

Any response to this? More melee hunters agree?

Okay. Level 43 Hunter chiming in.

HELLO turtle Friends. Im very happy with new changes. BUT as a melee hunter player i think still needs a big update for being real viable

First of all. Melee hunter needs shoot. Even being survival melee is very few% of your damage

I agree. A Hunter should be using their ranged shots to their advantage as they are still Hunters. A melee hunter should not be a melee purist. A hunter should expect to fail should they square up to a warrior in melee combat, but I do not believe this must be true against the other classes. Regardless, a melee hunter will still be using their shots and their traps.

So if you wanna make it FULL melee and remove all shoot needs a big upgrade.

-wolf aspect: gives 120 ap but you cant shoot.
Low buff for losing all ranged damage. And melee hunter need dodge too.(that you get from monkey aspect)
Instead only 120 ap maybe a good buff to agility (wich guives +ap and +dodge). Wolf aspect Needs a BIG upgrade to be worth of losing all range capability. You are not a warrior. Maybe +100% agility so get enough ap and dodge to be strong enough (remember. You lose all ranged skill)

-buff melee skills: old.lacerate. mongoose and counterattack does crap damage and domt scale at all. Even if they crit. Need a buff damage or better scaling with ap

-more melee skills:melee hunter have very few melee skills. Most are situational and requires to dodge. Maybe turn your shoots into melee skills would be a good idea. (Serpent strike. Multi strike. Arcane strike.... And melee hunter mark)

-still not a real melee class. Admit it. Hunter is not a.pure melee class. And being survival dont fixt that. Maybe adding something like flurry (+attack speed when crit) or something that reduces the cd.of.melee.strikes (a survival hunter does almost same damage in melee than a Bm or MM.) Or even make survival hunter able to put traps in combat

Those would be my fixes to do a melee hunter more viable if wanna make a full melee class

Not to speak contrary to your suggestions in any negative way, but I was not fond of the proposed changes in favor of melee hunter by the team and I think your proposed revisions to those incoming changes are only like a bandage over another bandage. I think what melee hunter needs, aside from definitely having abilities scale with AP, is better synergy with their pet, and maybe small cooldown reduction to raptor strike as their main melee ability.

If no-one knows what this looks like the Vanilla+ model for hunters is quite good in this regard as they have synergy all over. I would love to see some mechanics, abilities, or modifications to existing abilities that synergized better with the hunters pet.

The incoming Lacerate does not interest me in the least other than we are already starved for abilities. We already have Serpent Sting for a proper DoT. Serpent Sting is also quite efficient yielding about 2dmg/1mp.

While I like the idea of traps in combat, it would have to be something like the Rogue’s Improved Sap in talents to be fair.
Maybe add it into the talent Trap Mastery

Also I can see serpent sting have a melee option: serpent strike

Hunter can use traps in combat by exploiting feign death. The problem is it requires some skill to pull off, and even then it may be resisted. The problem with this is it feels more exploitive, not something that even makes sense. Secondly it adds an extra 80mp just to cast your trap in combat, and if your FD is resisted, that is a huge loss of mp for nothing from it.

Perhaps hunter could get a Natures Swiftness sort of ability that would allow them to drop a trap in combat - maybe for no mp too?

Hey can we get at least melee hunter skills scale with ap and cause +weapon damage? To do a significative damage

This is a must. I think a 2sec reduction to raptor strike would also be sufficient. It should be a talent.

But mana is not eternal. Changing froms aspect to aspect. And feinging death to cast trap.in combat will drain your mana

So... maybe there needs to be a talent that decreases mana costs for changing aspects? It would seem to me that melee hunters (and I've never played one so take that with a grain of salt in my commentary) would be the 'stance-dancers' of the hunter world?

To me, that would be appealing (a talent to encourage aspects shifts by melee hunters).

I think switching between aspects is not a viable way to play a hunter, it would make it very much like Warrior Stances or Paladin Auras. There needs to be something really unique about Hunter that sets them apart from the other classes.

From what I've read about WoW's development, the Hunter was the most unique class and the one the developers poured the most love into.

I agree, and it does not appeal to me at all to swap stances for this purpose. I'm not a fan of Aspect of the Wolf at all. It is entirely boring and a poor implementation of increased AP. Vanilla+ opted to give Aspect of Monkey lower dodge changes, but a talent option increases your crit chance by a bit while using it. Also survival had some melee ability that had different effects depending on the aspect you were using. I think some multidimensional elements such as these would be great for hunter, not just a passive aspect to increase damage and limit ranged. Zzzzzzzz.

as far as the melee ability thing goes, that remains to be seen whether or not they are strong enough but they should make a talent that periodically causes you to proc counterattack without parrying like maybe a % of the time when you use mongoose bite or dodge an attack to promote monkey synergy? Maybe a talent that causes raptor strike to increase the damage of mongoose bite?

You see, now this is some good stuff! This is the kind of multidimensional synergy we need. And it's much more fun sounding.

[Raukodor]

In early version of wow the talent spirit bond is the last BM talent and it heals you hp every time your pet does damage.

Maybe something like this?

Or make a talent that put a debuff in the mob that cause increased melee damage or +% to crit in melee

[Raukodor]

But mostly and easiest way is make tje current melee skills scale with ap and s talent that reduces the cd of raptor strike

[Raukodor]

And what about create a "sunder armor" skill for hunter?

So it buffs his melee damage (and pet's and raid's)

And allows use more skills not just ráptor strike or spamming wingclip

Other idea: survival talent that cause every time you cast wingclip it puts a debuff in the mob. That reduces armor or increases melee damage recived

[Allwynd01]

But I do think hunters always need to be at a significant disadvantage in melee, given their incredible advantage at range. Otherwise, their dominance is out of control.

But I leave it to you all to determine how that is best manifested while making MELEE a cool spec. I know I would want to try it, so get to work. ;)

Isn't this how the new Aspect of the Wolf is going to work? Once it's on, you can't use ranged abilities, and if you have Aspect of the Wolf as your primary aspect, that would most likely means you have invested talent points into either Beast Mastery or Survival... most definitely not into Marksmanship.

The way I see it, even if you are BM or SV, if you switch from Aspect of the Wolf to Aspect of the Hawk, for example, it won't give you that much of a ranged superiority over anything else.

A Hunter is most effective as either MS or BM and them shooting from afar, but I've played a Warrior many years ago in 10-19 Warsong Gulch and I could easily get past the pet and just use Charge + Hamstring and the Hunter was dead less than a minute later, because it could simply not escape me.

I've probably played Hunter the most of all the classes in the game, and I must say, being ranged and having a pet is both their greatest strength and greatest weakness, because once they don't have their pet to take the aggro off of them and they don't have the desired minimal range in order to be able to practice their ranged abilities, they become literal sitting ducks.

A Survival, melee Hunter build in my opinion would mean one where you suck at range, but close up, you can handle yourself quite well, in fact, it might even mean a lot of of other classes in PvP such as Rogues, Paladins or Warriors would think twice on how to approach you, or if they should even risk approaching you.

I was planning to play this kind of Hunter today, had a 16 level High Elf Hunter ready in Westfall, but, alas, the patch won't release today. When I reached level 10 and could invest talent points, I went and sold my bow and destroyed my arrows. I was thinking I might get a bow or something just for the bonus stats, but never buy projectiles and in a way Role-Play a true melee hunter who doesn't know how to shoot stuff. And to top it off - even leave Survival/melee-related abilities on my bars, everything else is hidden and I will probably save a bit more money on training.

I hope the patch releases soon.

[Feomatar]

U can change aspects u know?)

[Snigery]

A Survival, melee Hunter build in my opinion would mean one where you suck at range, but close up, you can handle yourself quite well, in fact, it might even mean a lot of of other classes in PvP such as Rogues, Paladins or Warriors would think twice on how to approach you, or if they should even risk approaching you.

I don't agree nor understand the all or nothing approach. I don't think Survival or melee hunter ought to be about melee or ranged but about making melee less of a hindrance compared to being at range - basically making melee viable. And I don't think that ought to happen by removing ranged, or by giving Hunter the abilities of other classes such as Sunder Armor or basically Rend (Lacerate). Melee Hunter would already be greatly viable with the abilities they have scaling better:

- Raptor Strike is good but Survival talent tree ought to offer cooldown reduction around 2 seconds imo bringing it down to 4 seconds.
- Mongoose Bite ought to scale with attack power since it does not deal weapon damage but flat damage. Given that it procs off dodging, secondary effects would be very nice, especially if they synergize with pet in some way.
- Counterattack is not an ability I opt for with my build given it is not as useful at all really, but again ought to scale with AP and perhaps should offer some largely utility like secondary effect. Vanilla+ as my reference for a server that did make large changes to classes had a talent that gave Counterattack an immobilize effect for couple seconds. That ties in to the melee viability and gives Hunter an obviously good way to escape melee and pop off their ranged toolset, which ought to still be used, not discarded.

In early version of wow the talent spirit bond is the last BM talent and it heals you hp every time your pet does damage.

Maybe something like this?

I think something like that would make the Hunter pet a largely obvious target in PvP and also would hinder the choice certain players make when choosing their pet as pets have largely different attack speeds in Vanilla. The passive option works well I think for BM hunter, and I don't know whether Hunter truly lacks in regards to sustaining health in fights especially with their increased dodge chance and ability to shuffle threat with their pets. If you are struggling make use of available ingame items like potions and bandages. Hunter could use some extra umph in regards to MP though, especially with the way we use traps in melee combat.

[Garish]

Guys with the add Wolf aspect i think that surv PRIMARY ROLE as melee could be a thing.
(Look at the symbol of the SURV Tree, its a AXE! a BLOODY AXE not a trap or a some support symbol) Rexxar just thrown a axe when he needs a "ranged" damage

My take on Hunter survival:
as a melee hunter u need to side tank with your pet when leveling,put dot in 2 mobs,deal with 1 mob when your pet is dealing with the other, tankier pets are better for this style(bears and boars).
SURV tree today is a ranged DEF with a STATs+ tree without a purpose in it.
monkey aspect is better than wolf aspect in melee tbh, MB procs more, 8-13% dodge, being able to shoot.
my changes:
1.Wolf aspect turn into a row 3 talent (swapping deterrence), (wolf aspect being a surv talent is what makes viable new buffs and changes)
2.new Melee Attack power/weapon scale for melee spells(being fair with the melee AP boost of WA)
3.mongoose bite work only on parry.(if you want dodge go monkey)
4.counter attack turn in to a disarm, same as rogue ( imp Wingclip talent has the same effect as counter attack now)
5.Raptor strike and moogoose bite minor buffs with lacerate and wolf aspect synergy.
6.deterrence turn to a baseline lvl20-40 spell with 2 ranks(15% at 1 rank 25% 2 rank) cmon guys is a 5 min def cd row 3 TALENT (that gets overpowered by warrs) just add some +5min in cd

i think thats the safe(st) way to improve survival tree.(if you think that this buffs ranged hunters, just put more mana cost into Wolf Aspect and/or a debuff when u turn off, making u wait some seconds to get ready to fire again)

This changes make a SURV/BM (21/0/30) viable in pvp and leveling(i dunno pve)

#Some ideas for pve and pvp viabilization for melee (I don't think they should put all this, just some ideas)

1.Your new (trueshot) spell buffs your melee Attack speed with time charges. making you turn off your wolf aspect and go in shoot distance to reapply sort of a mechanic, if u cant kill your target in time.
2.Mend pet works as self healing spell,ONLY when the WOLF ASPECT is ON, with -90% healing effect, (BM talent can improve that,making it a melee hunter "only cleanse" for poisons,diseases and bleeds)
3.Killer instinct talent (ROW 5 SUV) buffs your melee haste when the target is bleeding (every pve melee class needs a AS boost in some way)
4.new melee "Finisher" spell based on bleed
5. fire traps can be placed in combat when wolf aspect is ative

What do you guys think? (sry for my english not my first, or second language)

[Mikecrow]

But mostly and easiest way is make tje current melee skills scale with ap and s talent that reduces the cd of raptor strike

Or at least provide a talent for it somewhere in bm or survival.

most people are saying melee hunter isnt a melee purist so talents that also encourage or amplify damage of your melee moves by using a ranged one and vice versa is a great idea.

i.e. "Your serpent sting increases the damage the target takes from your Raptor Strike by X" or "your mongoose bite damage increases the duration of the active sting ability on the target by Y"

[Raukodor]

The biggest problem is melee hunter skills dont scale at all

They should scale with ap. A level 60 t3 hunter with corrupted ashbringer hitting with mongoose bite does same damage as a fresh level 60 with green items. Same as counterattack and bonus damage from raptor strike

[Monmothma21]

• you could combine both Monster and Humanoid Slaying talents in to one, and free the spot for another talent. It could be an Improved Aspect of the Wolf that will boost your damage while hitting a bleeding target for both you and your pet?

  Improved Aspect of the Wolf.
  
  While being under the influence of the Wolf all damage you and your pet do to lacerated(with the new skill) targets increases by 5/10/15%.

  Improved Aspect of the Wolf.
  
  While being under the influence of the Wolf all damage you and your pet do to bleeding targets increases by 2/4/6% for each unique bleed effect on the target.

• the Wind Clip base damage could be boosted and its talent, Improved Wing Clip, could improve it more somehow.

  Improved Wing Clip.
  
  Increase the damage of Wing Clip by 33/66/100%, but reduce its slow strength and duration by 20/40/60%.

  Improved Wing Clip.
  
  Gives 7/14/21% chance to rip deeper in to the target's wounds and improve the damage they take from all bleed effects by 5/10/15% for the next 10 seconds.

• There is also Killer Instinct talent. It could give you a chance to enable Mongoose Bite with out Dodging.

  Killer Instinct.
  
  Improves crit chance for all of your attacks by 1/2/3%. Gives your Raptor Strike 33/66/100% chance to make Mongoose Bite usable.

• I'm not sure how much Wyvern Sting is used but it could be replaced by something melee oriented instead.

  Mutilate.
  (passive)
  
  Your melee critical strikes, Mongoose Bite and Counterattack cause grievous wound that does X direct damage and makes your target bleed for X damage every 3 seconds for the next 15 seconds. Stacks to 5.

[Zomg]

Just a small note to say that I really don't want to lose Counterattack's perfect root unless, say, the guaranteed root-on-parry is rolled in to Improved Wing Clip. Deflection + Counterattack has a high rate of guaranteed root. Don't throw that away. Thanks.

I don't want to see radical changes to abilities so much as scaling. Scaling (or more ranks to buy) would be a good way to gradually fix things up and test the waters.

[Zomg]

I'm not sure how much Wyvern Sting is used but it could be replaced by something melee oriented instead.

It's like a second, ranged trap. I also do not want it removed.

I suspect a lot of people have not really played much deep survival, since it's off-meta, and so we should be careful of accepting suggestions to remove parts of it.

[Monmothma21]

Well, I thought that going "bleeding-out" route would make sense for a melee hunter. That's how a lot of animals actually hunt.

And as for roots, - would using the pet for that make more sense? Your pet could go for the kneecaps while you distract the target. Or something like that?

[Zomg]

And as for roots, - would using the pet for that make more sense? Your pet could go for the kneecaps while you distract the target. Or something like that?

Two things:
1. The pet is *also* useful, of course. But just because you have one tool doesn't mean you can delete other tools.
2. Pets don't aggro players, unless they're really dumb.

[Monmothma21]

Two things:
1. The pet is *also* useful, of course. But just because you have one tool doesn't mean you can delete other tools.
2. Pets don't aggro players, unless they're really dumb.

You don't need to delete them, you could give it to your pet. What I ment by that is - you do something(using a skill/parrying) and this enables your pet to root your target on its next attack. It could be back and fourth - you enable your pet to root, and in exchange it enables you to to something cool too. You gonna be like a pack of hyenas, circling your target and just "bullying" it in melee, like hyenas do. Or that the inspiration that was behind all of that anyway.

[Monmothma21]

The reason why i suggested to replace Wyvern Sting is that Aspect of the Wolf will disable ranged attacks(or that is what the patch notes claim it will do). Why would you want a shooty attack if you wont be able to shoot? Is it really worth to have Wyvern Sting, which is only usable out of combat, as a Talent ability? Could it be added by default, as a level 45-60 ability instead?

Also, sorry but i had to edit my first post here, mainly the Killer Insinct suggestion. I always forget that in this version Mongoose Bite is usable only after dodge.

[Zomg]

The reason why i suggested to replace Wyvern Sting is that Aspect of the Wolf will disable ranged attacks ...

That doesn't mean the Survival talent tree is melee only. In fact, it means any hunter has the option to switch on any GCD. Melee beastmaster? Sure! Hybrid ranged/melee survival? Yup! Throwable traps? Wyvern sting is that.

I just want to make sure we aren't confused here:
1. Survival tree != melee tree
2. Aspect of the Wolf is not a survival talent
3. Petless != melee either.