Changes to MELEE HUNTER

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Raukodor
Posts: 326

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Raukodor » Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:17 pm

And what about create a "sunder armor" skill for hunter?

So it buffs his melee damage (and pet's and raid's)

And allows use more skills not just ráptor strike or spamming wingclip

Other idea: survival talent that cause every time you cast wingclip it puts a debuff in the mob. That reduces armor or increases melee damage recived
Khanzo. Blademaster and Explorer

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Allwynd01
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Allwynd01 » Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:17 am

Merikkinon wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 3:34 am


But I do think hunters always need to be at a significant disadvantage in melee, given their incredible advantage at range. Otherwise, their dominance is out of control.

But I leave it to you all to determine how that is best manifested while making MELEE a cool spec. I know I would want to try it, so get to work. ;)
Isn't this how the new Aspect of the Wolf is going to work? Once it's on, you can't use ranged abilities, and if you have Aspect of the Wolf as your primary aspect, that would most likely means you have invested talent points into either Beast Mastery or Survival... most definitely not into Marksmanship.

The way I see it, even if you are BM or SV, if you switch from Aspect of the Wolf to Aspect of the Hawk, for example, it won't give you that much of a ranged superiority over anything else.

A Hunter is most effective as either MS or BM and them shooting from afar, but I've played a Warrior many years ago in 10-19 Warsong Gulch and I could easily get past the pet and just use Charge + Hamstring and the Hunter was dead less than a minute later, because it could simply not escape me.

I've probably played Hunter the most of all the classes in the game, and I must say, being ranged and having a pet is both their greatest strength and greatest weakness, because once they don't have their pet to take the aggro off of them and they don't have the desired minimal range in order to be able to practice their ranged abilities, they become literal sitting ducks.

A Survival, melee Hunter build in my opinion would mean one where you suck at range, but close up, you can handle yourself quite well, in fact, it might even mean a lot of of other classes in PvP such as Rogues, Paladins or Warriors would think twice on how to approach you, or if they should even risk approaching you.

I was planning to play this kind of Hunter today, had a 16 level High Elf Hunter ready in Westfall, but, alas, the patch won't release today. When I reached level 10 and could invest talent points, I went and sold my bow and destroyed my arrows. I was thinking I might get a bow or something just for the bonus stats, but never buy projectiles and in a way Role-Play a true melee hunter who doesn't know how to shoot stuff. And to top it off - even leave Survival/melee-related abilities on my bars, everything else is hidden and I will probably save a bit more money on training.

I hope the patch releases soon.

Feomatar
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Feomatar » Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:05 am

U can change aspects u know?)

Snigery
Posts: 41

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Snigery » Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:00 pm

Allwynd01 wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:17 am
A Survival, melee Hunter build in my opinion would mean one where you suck at range, but close up, you can handle yourself quite well, in fact, it might even mean a lot of of other classes in PvP such as Rogues, Paladins or Warriors would think twice on how to approach you, or if they should even risk approaching you.
I don't agree nor understand the all or nothing approach. I don't think Survival or melee hunter ought to be about melee or ranged but about making melee less of a hindrance compared to being at range - basically making melee viable. And I don't think that ought to happen by removing ranged, or by giving Hunter the abilities of other classes such as Sunder Armor or basically Rend (Lacerate). Melee Hunter would already be greatly viable with the abilities they have scaling better:

- Raptor Strike is good but Survival talent tree ought to offer cooldown reduction around 2 seconds imo bringing it down to 4 seconds.
- Mongoose Bite ought to scale with attack power since it does not deal weapon damage but flat damage. Given that it procs off dodging, secondary effects would be very nice, especially if they synergize with pet in some way.
- Counterattack is not an ability I opt for with my build given it is not as useful at all really, but again ought to scale with AP and perhaps should offer some largely utility like secondary effect. Vanilla+ as my reference for a server that did make large changes to classes had a talent that gave Counterattack an immobilize effect for couple seconds. That ties in to the melee viability and gives Hunter an obviously good way to escape melee and pop off their ranged toolset, which ought to still be used, not discarded.
Raukodor wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:05 pm
In early version of wow the talent spirit bond is the last BM talent and it heals you hp every time your pet does damage.

Maybe something like this?
I think something like that would make the Hunter pet a largely obvious target in PvP and also would hinder the choice certain players make when choosing their pet as pets have largely different attack speeds in Vanilla. The passive option works well I think for BM hunter, and I don't know whether Hunter truly lacks in regards to sustaining health in fights especially with their increased dodge chance and ability to shuffle threat with their pets. If you are struggling make use of available ingame items like potions and bandages. Hunter could use some extra umph in regards to MP though, especially with the way we use traps in melee combat.

Garish
Posts: 44

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Garish » Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:37 pm

Guys with the add Wolf aspect i think that surv PRIMARY ROLE as melee could be a thing.
(Look at the symbol of the SURV Tree, its a AXE! a BLOODY AXE not a trap or a some support symbol) Rexxar just thrown a axe when he needs a "ranged" damage

My take on Hunter survival:
as a melee hunter u need to side tank with your pet when leveling,put dot in 2 mobs,deal with 1 mob when your pet is dealing with the other, tankier pets are better for this style(bears and boars).
SURV tree today is a ranged DEF with a STATs+ tree without a purpose in it.
monkey aspect is better than wolf aspect in melee tbh, MB procs more, 8-13% dodge, being able to shoot.
my changes:
1.Wolf aspect turn into a row 3 talent (swapping deterrence), (wolf aspect being a surv talent is what makes viable new buffs and changes)
2.new Melee Attack power/weapon scale for melee spells(being fair with the melee AP boost of WA)
3.mongoose bite work only on parry.(if you want dodge go monkey)
4.counter attack turn in to a disarm, same as rogue ( imp Wingclip talent has the same effect as counter attack now)
5.Raptor strike and moogoose bite minor buffs with lacerate and wolf aspect synergy.
6.deterrence turn to a baseline lvl20-40 spell with 2 ranks(15% at 1 rank 25% 2 rank) cmon guys is a 5 min def cd row 3 TALENT (that gets overpowered by warrs) just add some +5min in cd

i think thats the safe(st) way to improve survival tree.(if you think that this buffs ranged hunters, just put more mana cost into Wolf Aspect and/or a debuff when u turn off, making u wait some seconds to get ready to fire again)

This changes make a SURV/BM (21/0/30) viable in pvp and leveling(i dunno pve)

#Some ideas for pve and pvp viabilization for melee (I don't think they should put all this, just some ideas)

1.Your new (trueshot) spell buffs your melee Attack speed with time charges. making you turn off your wolf aspect and go in shoot distance to reapply sort of a mechanic, if u cant kill your target in time.
2.Mend pet works as self healing spell,ONLY when the WOLF ASPECT is ON, with -90% healing effect, (BM talent can improve that,making it a melee hunter "only cleanse" for poisons,diseases and bleeds)
3.Killer instinct talent (ROW 5 SUV) buffs your melee haste when the target is bleeding (every pve melee class needs a AS boost in some way)
4.new melee "Finisher" spell based on bleed
5. fire traps can be placed in combat when wolf aspect is ative

What do you guys think? (sry for my english not my first, or second language)
Last edited by Garish on Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Mikecrow
Posts: 17

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Mikecrow » Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:26 pm

Raukodor wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:06 pm
But mostly and easiest way is make tje current melee skills scale with ap and s talent that reduces the cd of raptor strike
Or at least provide a talent for it somewhere in bm or survival.

most people are saying melee hunter isnt a melee purist so talents that also encourage or amplify damage of your melee moves by using a ranged one and vice versa is a great idea.

i.e. "Your serpent sting increases the damage the target takes from your Raptor Strike by X" or "your mongoose bite damage increases the duration of the active sting ability on the target by Y"

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Raukodor
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Raukodor » Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:27 pm

The biggest problem is melee hunter skills dont scale at all

They should scale with ap. A level 60 t3 hunter with corrupted ashbringer hitting with mongoose bite does same damage as a fresh level 60 with green items. Same as counterattack and bonus damage from raptor strike
Khanzo. Blademaster and Explorer

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Monmothma21
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Monmothma21 » Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:58 pm

  • you could combine both Monster and Humanoid Slaying talents in to one, and free the spot for another talent. It could be an Improved Aspect of the Wolf that will boost your damage while hitting a bleeding target for both you and your pet?
    Improved Aspect of the Wolf.

    While being under the influence of the Wolf all damage you and your pet do to lacerated(with the new skill) targets increases by 5/10/15%.
    Improved Aspect of the Wolf.

    While being under the influence of the Wolf all damage you and your pet do to bleeding targets increases by 2/4/6% for each unique bleed effect on the target.
  • the Wind Clip base damage could be boosted and its talent, Improved Wing Clip, could improve it more somehow.
    Improved Wing Clip.

    Increase the damage of Wing Clip by 33/66/100%, but reduce its slow strength and duration by 20/40/60%.
    Improved Wing Clip.

    Gives 7/14/21% chance to rip deeper in to the target's wounds and improve the damage they take from all bleed effects by 5/10/15% for the next 10 seconds.
  • There is also Killer Instinct talent. It could give you a chance to enable Mongoose Bite with out Dodging.
    Killer Instinct.

    Improves crit chance for all of your attacks by 1/2/3%. Gives your Raptor Strike 33/66/100% chance to make Mongoose Bite usable.
  • I'm not sure how much Wyvern Sting is used but it could be replaced by something melee oriented instead.
    Mutilate.
    (passive)

    Your melee critical strikes, Mongoose Bite and Counterattack cause grievous wound that does X direct damage and makes your target bleed for X damage every 3 seconds for the next 15 seconds. Stacks to 5.
Last edited by Monmothma21 on Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm, edited 5 times in total.
English is not my first language, not even second or third. Brace yourselves. sad_turtle

Zomg
Posts: 9

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Zomg » Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:15 pm

Just a small note to say that I really don't want to lose Counterattack's perfect root unless, say, the guaranteed root-on-parry is rolled in to Improved Wing Clip. Deflection + Counterattack has a high rate of guaranteed root. Don't throw that away. Thanks.

I don't want to see radical changes to abilities so much as scaling. Scaling (or more ranks to buy) would be a good way to gradually fix things up and test the waters.

Zomg
Posts: 9

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Zomg » Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:19 pm

Monmothma21 wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:58 pm
I'm not sure how much Wyvern Sting is used but it could be replaced by something melee oriented instead.
It's like a second, ranged trap. I also do not want it removed.

I suspect a lot of people have not really played much deep survival, since it's off-meta, and so we should be careful of accepting suggestions to remove parts of it.

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Monmothma21
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Monmothma21 » Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:45 pm

Well, I thought that going "bleeding-out" route would make sense for a melee hunter. That's how a lot of animals actually hunt.

And as for roots, - would using the pet for that make more sense? Your pet could go for the kneecaps while you distract the target. Or something like that?
English is not my first language, not even second or third. Brace yourselves. sad_turtle

Zomg
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Zomg » Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:55 pm

Monmothma21 wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:45 pm
And as for roots, - would using the pet for that make more sense? Your pet could go for the kneecaps while you distract the target. Or something like that?
Two things:
1. The pet is *also* useful, of course. But just because you have one tool doesn't mean you can delete other tools.
2. Pets don't aggro players, unless they're really dumb.

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Monmothma21
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Monmothma21 » Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:11 pm

Zomg wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:55 pm

Two things:
1. The pet is *also* useful, of course. But just because you have one tool doesn't mean you can delete other tools.
2. Pets don't aggro players, unless they're really dumb.
You don't need to delete them, you could give it to your pet. What I ment by that is - you do something(using a skill/parrying) and this enables your pet to root your target on its next attack. It could be back and fourth - you enable your pet to root, and in exchange it enables you to to something cool too. You gonna be like a pack of hyenas, circling your target and just "bullying" it in melee, like hyenas do. Or that the inspiration that was behind all of that anyway.
Last edited by Monmothma21 on Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
English is not my first language, not even second or third. Brace yourselves. sad_turtle

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Monmothma21
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Monmothma21 » Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:44 pm

The reason why i suggested to replace Wyvern Sting is that Aspect of the Wolf will disable ranged attacks(or that is what the patch notes claim it will do). Why would you want a shooty attack if you wont be able to shoot? Is it really worth to have Wyvern Sting, which is only usable out of combat, as a Talent ability? Could it be added by default, as a level 45-60 ability instead?

Also, sorry but i had to edit my first post here, mainly the Killer Insinct suggestion. I always forget that in this version Mongoose Bite is usable only after dodge.
English is not my first language, not even second or third. Brace yourselves. sad_turtle

Zomg
Posts: 9

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Zomg » Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:20 pm

Monmothma21 wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:44 pm
The reason why i suggested to replace Wyvern Sting is that Aspect of the Wolf will disable ranged attacks ...
That doesn't mean the Survival talent tree is melee only. In fact, it means any hunter has the option to switch on any GCD. Melee beastmaster? Sure! Hybrid ranged/melee survival? Yup! Throwable traps? Wyvern sting is that.

I just want to make sure we aren't confused here:
1. Survival tree != melee tree
2. Aspect of the Wolf is not a survival talent
3. Petless != melee either.

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Monmothma21
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Monmothma21 » Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:42 am

Here is another suggestion(where i recycled my previous one), but for the Beast Mastery instead. You would have to invest about 34-36 points in to BM to have all the things. The numbers are mostly pulled out of my rear, so they are just an example/placeholder. Im also not sure how hard it would be to modify pet related stuff, but here it is:
  • you could combine both Endurance Training and Thick Hide in to one, and free the spot for Improved Aspect of the Wolf. To compensate for the merge you could reduce HP bonus to 10%(from 15%) and bonus armor to 20%(from 30%) at lvl 5 of the talent.
    Endurance Training

    Increases the Health and Armor of your pets by 2/4/6/8/10% and 4/8/12/16/20% respectively
    And the two version of the aspect to replace it with are:
    Improved Aspect of the Wolf.

    While being under the influence of the Wolf all damage you and your pet do to lacerated(with the new skill) targets increases by 5/10/15%.
    Improved Aspect of the Wolf.

    While being under the influence of the Wolf all damage you and your pet do to bleeding targets increases by 2/4/6% for each unique bleed effect on the target.
    Because wolfs attack when they smell blood, it agitates them.
    ===============================================================
    ===============================================================
  • Bestial Swiftness could be reduced to 20%(from 30%) and merged with Pathfinding, so one talent will improve speed of both you and the pet.
    Bestial Swiftness

    Increase the bonus from Aspect of the Cheetah and Aspect of the Pack by 3/6%. Also increases the outdoor movement speed of your pet by 10/20%
    And here is a suggestion for what could replace it:
    Goading.

    Your Wing Clip will specificaly target the weak points of your target, exposing them for 10 seconds. Your pet's Bite or Claw will have 20% chance to hit your target where it hurts, destabilizing them and making your Mongoose Bite usable without Dodging.
    You goad your target, enabling your pet to Bite or Claw better or reach places it wasnt able to before and make enemy vulnerable. Its like hitting the side of your chair with that "very special part of your elbow" (were the nerves are), which makes you feel like youre about to die. Your pet will cause your target to go through something like that, which should justify a free Mongoose Bite.
    ===============================================================
    ===============================================================
  • You could combine Improved Revive Pet and Improved Mend Pet, to have one dedicated talent for caring about your pet. This will free another slot for a talent.
    Heavy Pet-ing(with a single t)

    Revive pet's casting time is reduced by 3/6 sec and mana cost by 20/40%, while the health your pet returns with is increased by 15/30%. Also gives the Mend Pet spell a 15/30% chance of cleansing 1 Curse, Disease, Magic or poison effect from the pet on each tick.
    This is what could go instead of it:
    Feast.

    Gives your pet's crits 7/15% chance to further exacerbate target's wound, making the target take 10/20% increased damage from bleeding. Only works against already bleeding(or lacerated with a new skill) targets. Lasts for 20 seconds. Proc-ing another instance of this effect on the same target(while already having one on) makes next 3 pet attacks replenish their hp by 15.
    Does not work on Undead or Mechanical targets.
    Going for the wound itself is a legit tactic some animals will use. And the healing goes from your pet nibbling on them. Your pet shouldnt be nibbling on mechanical targets or undead, for obvious reasons.
    ===============================================================
    ===============================================================
There is virtualy nothing else to move, with out (radicaly) changing existing skills. So far i was mainly suggesting to add new stuff, while shuffling existing talents around. I can only suggest to change how Lacerate works.
Lacerate.
(passive)

Your melee critical strikes and Mongoose Bite cause grievous wound that does [0.75*Mongoose Bite] direct damage and makes your target bleed for [0.5*og.Lacerate] damage every 3 seconds for the next 15 seconds. Stacks to 5.
Stacking to 5 will boost dot damage to [0.5*og.Lacerate]x5. So, for example, if originaly intended lacerate damage would be 100 it will do (0.5*100)*5 damage, which is 250, on full 5 stacks. Getting more stacks will replenish the dot and also do direct damage.
English is not my first language, not even second or third. Brace yourselves. sad_turtle

Damnatius
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Damnatius » Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:33 pm

Played the vanilla + serv. and its a good melee version, but u feel like other class and lets no do that!
My oppinion is that melee hunters can work only with existing spells and abilities,to feel like vanilla wow and staying in the class fantasy like this serv, done that til now. if u add more stuff it will change the vanilla vibe.
All changes can be made in talent tree (removing a lot of useless ones and make 2 in 1 where u can), or added in the spells. the range is a hunter signature class, so we can have dmg nerf when use monkey form but not remove them.

1.buffed lacerate version would be a good addition (like paladin holy strike) because it was intended in game and feels like it belongs in vanilla and the class fantasia ( bleeds,poisons)
2.buffed raptor strike ( making it instant,or less cd time, or ap scaling dmg)
3.making new usage of ap or dmg buffed mongoose bite better like : after raptor strike u can use it, or free use in monkey aspect, or use after a crit, or something of sort.
4.buffed counterattk (dmg or ap scaling)
5. in combat traps!
6. buffed monkey aspect with ap. (we already have an aspect , why make another one?? to change vanilla vibe?)
7. add imp. serpent sting in surv tree (its more rellevant here)

A lot can be done here, but for me its important to feel and play like a hunter vanilla serv and a hunter we now, with no added stuff.

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Mativh
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Mativh » Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:54 am

Good points I've played melee hunter and I agree with you, except maybe the in combat traps, it'd strengthen the spec but doesn't make sense as the trap is something the opponent isn't supposed to be aware of, maybe it could be in combat but only if the enemy is out of line of sight. And a talent that increases hit chance against what is being tracked at the moment.

It's important to establish the fantasy identity behind this spec. What does a hunter fighting in melee do in real life from a period of similar available weapons, and how does that change with wows lore races and hunted beasts?

There are abilities in Diablo 2, spear and javelin skill tree of the Amazon class, that would suit a melee hunter well; Jab, Fend and Impale.

Also not sure if it's doable but one thing made sense, would allow long aspect dance and was a good change - hunter having focus as a resource instead of mana. It's not a paladin using spells, a hunter having mana makes as much sense as the rogue having mana.

What would be awesome is if the hunter and all classes had race based abilities like the priest does.

Geojak
Posts: 311

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Geojak » Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:09 pm

I think it could be cool if meele hunters habe a way to trade their pet for extra combat power in meele. Meele hunter shouldn't have a tanking pet anymore imo.
Msg

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Raukodor
Posts: 326

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Raukodor » Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:18 am

Yes and no

Pet is the essence of the Hunter

In fact i tank more than my pet (this is where cower shines)

And remember a melee hunter isnt a full melee class. If you are focused you wil die very quickly. You will dodge a lot of attacks but not all of them and your armor and hp is low
Khanzo. Blademaster and Explorer

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