Changes to MELEE HUNTER

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Raukodor
Posts: 326

Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Raukodor » Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:41 pm

HELLO turtle Friends. Im very happy with new changes. BUT as a melee hunter player i think still needs a big update for being real viable

First of all. Melee hunter needs shoot. Even being survival melee is very few% of your damage

So if you wanna make it FULL melee and remove all shoot needs a big upgrade.

-wolf aspect: gives 120 ap but you cant shoot.
Low buff for losing all ranged damage. And melee hunter need dodge too.(that you get from monkey aspect)
Instead only 120 ap maybe a good buff to agility (wich guives +ap and +dodge). Wolf aspect Needs a BIG upgrade to be worth of losing all range capability. You are not a warrior. Maybe +100% agility so get enough ap and dodge to be strong enough (remember. You lose all ranged skill)

-buff melee skills: old.lacerate. mongoose and counterattack does crap damage and domt scale at all. Even if they crit. Need a buff damage or better scaling with ap

-more melee skills:melee hunter have very few melee skills. Most are situational and requires to dodge. Maybe turn your shoots into melee skills would be a good idea. (Serpent strike. Multi strike. Arcane strike.... And melee hunter mark)

-still not a real melee class. Admit it. Hunter is not a.pure melee class. And being survival dont fixt that. Maybe adding something like flurry (+attack speed when crit) or something that reduces the cd.of.melee.strikes (a survival hunter does almost same damage in melee than a Bm or MM.) Or even make survival hunter able to put traps in combat

Those would be my fixes to do a melee hunter more viable if wanna make a full melee class

IN SHORT:
Changes i think it needs:
1-make wolf aspect give a good bonus to agility.to be worth lose all ranged capability
2- Buff melee skills scaling with ap
3- Turn ranged skills into melee strikes (not only mongoose/raptor spam)
4-allow use traps in combat and maybe give him flurry like warriors


What do you think??
Last edited by Raukodor on Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Augustfenix85
Posts: 64

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Augustfenix85 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:03 am

While I like the idea of traps in combat, it would have to be something like the Rogue’s Improved Sap in talents to be fair.
Maybe add it into the talent Trap Mastery

Also I can see serpent sting have a melee option: serpent strike
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Valadorn
Posts: 218

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Valadorn » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:39 am

You do realize you can instantly swap between aspects? Use normal ones till enemy gets close, activate Wolf till you murder it, and change Back to whatever other aspect you were using to shoot. Repeat o.o


What you are suggesting would overpower any other melee class.

Darreno
Posts: 33

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Darreno » Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:44 am

Augustfenix85 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:03 am
While I like the idea of traps in combat, it would have to be something like the Rogue’s Improved Sap in talents to be fair.
Maybe add it into the talent Trap Mastery

Also I can see serpent sting have a melee option: serpent strike
A melee hunter does cast Serpent Sting as part of a PvE DPS rotation in raids. But I understand what you mean.

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Raukodor
Posts: 326

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Raukodor » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:51 pm

But mana is not eternal. Changing froms aspect to aspect. And feinging death to cast trap.in combat will drain your mana
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Raukodor
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Raukodor » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:53 pm

And what about a temporary debuff that makes you unable to shoot when you change from wolf aspect
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Melhist2
Posts: 7

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Melhist2 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:52 pm

Since you lose all you range attacks, at least aspect of wolf should let you strike mongose bite without Dodge. And it wuld be good if mongose bite had weapon damage or some kind of scale.
Or raptor strike shuld be instant and not bind to autoatack

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Raukodor
Posts: 326

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Raukodor » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:26 pm

Melee hunter attacks hits like my dead grandmother....need a real big buff and scale with ap
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Raukodor
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Raukodor » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:50 pm

And still a survival hunter most personal damage comes from shoots.

So wolf aspect needs a REAL upgrade to be worth of losing all ranged capability
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Raukodor
Posts: 326

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Raukodor » Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:32 pm

Hey can we get at least melee hunter skills scale with ap and cause +weapon damage? To do a significative damage
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Celaris
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Celaris » Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:38 am

I agree that melee hunter won't be viable with these changes and they definitely need something

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Raukodor
Posts: 326

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Raukodor » Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:14 am

Any response to this? More melee hunters agree?
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Merikkinon
Posts: 413

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Merikkinon » Mon Jan 03, 2022 3:47 pm

Raukodor wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:51 pm
But mana is not eternal. Changing froms aspect to aspect. And feinging death to cast trap.in combat will drain your mana
So... maybe there needs to be a talent that decreases mana costs for changing aspects? It would seem to me that melee hunters (and I've never played one so take that with a grain of salt in my commentary) would be the 'stance-dancers' of the hunter world?

To me, that would be appealing (a talent to encourage aspects shifts by melee hunters).

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Allwynd01
Posts: 207

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Allwynd01 » Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:28 pm

Merikkinon wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 3:47 pm
Raukodor wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:51 pm
But mana is not eternal. Changing froms aspect to aspect. And feinging death to cast trap.in combat will drain your mana
So... maybe there needs to be a talent that decreases mana costs for changing aspects? It would seem to me that melee hunters (and I've never played one so take that with a grain of salt in my commentary) would be the 'stance-dancers' of the hunter world?

To me, that would be appealing (a talent to encourage aspects shifts by melee hunters).
I think switching between aspects is not a viable way to play a hunter, it would make it very much like Warrior Stances or Paladin Auras. There needs to be something really unique about Hunter that sets them apart from the other classes.

From what I've read about WoW's development, the Hunter was the most unique class and the one the developers poured the most love into.

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Projecx
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Projecx » Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:23 pm

How about replacing Shoot for something like Pounce that would work more like a warrior's Charge but would not have a minimum range.

Also allow hunters to equip Bucklers in offhand.

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Merikkinon
Posts: 413

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Merikkinon » Wed Jan 05, 2022 3:34 am

Allwynd01 wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:28 pm
I think switching between aspects is not a viable way to play a hunter, it would make it very much like Warrior Stances or Paladin Auras. There needs to be something really unique about Hunter that sets them apart from the other classes.

From what I've read about WoW's development, the Hunter was the most unique class and the one the developers poured the most love into.
Fair enough, although the stance-dancing of warriors is going to calm down quite a bit here soon.

But I do think hunters always need to be at a significant disadvantage in melee, given their incredible advantage at range. Otherwise, their dominance is out of control.

But I leave it to you all to determine how that is best manifested while making MELEE a cool spec. I know I would want to try it, so get to work. ;)

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Mikecrow
Posts: 17

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Mikecrow » Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:01 am

I do agree with the traps in combat part and wolf aspect being redudant, it should just be a talent that augments aspect of the monkey to disable ranged attacks but grant bonus melee attack power so you get the dodge too. Nobody out here wants to swap between a bland aspect of the monkey or an attack power buff.

as far as the melee ability thing goes, that remains to be seen whether or not they are strong enough but they should make a talent that periodically causes you to proc counterattack without parrying like maybe a % of the time when you use mongoose bite or dodge an attack to promote monkey synergy? Maybe a talent that causes raptor strike to increase the damage of mongoose bite?

Snigery
Posts: 41

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Snigery » Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:54 am

Raukodor wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:14 am
Any response to this? More melee hunters agree?
Okay. Level 43 Hunter chiming in.
Raukodor wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:41 pm
HELLO turtle Friends. Im very happy with new changes. BUT as a melee hunter player i think still needs a big update for being real viable

First of all. Melee hunter needs shoot. Even being survival melee is very few% of your damage
I agree. A Hunter should be using their ranged shots to their advantage as they are still Hunters. A melee hunter should not be a melee purist. A hunter should expect to fail should they square up to a warrior in melee combat, but I do not believe this must be true against the other classes. Regardless, a melee hunter will still be using their shots and their traps.

Raukodor wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:41 pm
So if you wanna make it FULL melee and remove all shoot needs a big upgrade.

-wolf aspect: gives 120 ap but you cant shoot.
Low buff for losing all ranged damage. And melee hunter need dodge too.(that you get from monkey aspect)
Instead only 120 ap maybe a good buff to agility (wich guives +ap and +dodge). Wolf aspect Needs a BIG upgrade to be worth of losing all range capability. You are not a warrior. Maybe +100% agility so get enough ap and dodge to be strong enough (remember. You lose all ranged skill)

-buff melee skills: old.lacerate. mongoose and counterattack does crap damage and domt scale at all. Even if they crit. Need a buff damage or better scaling with ap

-more melee skills:melee hunter have very few melee skills. Most are situational and requires to dodge. Maybe turn your shoots into melee skills would be a good idea. (Serpent strike. Multi strike. Arcane strike.... And melee hunter mark)

-still not a real melee class. Admit it. Hunter is not a.pure melee class. And being survival dont fixt that. Maybe adding something like flurry (+attack speed when crit) or something that reduces the cd.of.melee.strikes (a survival hunter does almost same damage in melee than a Bm or MM.) Or even make survival hunter able to put traps in combat

Those would be my fixes to do a melee hunter more viable if wanna make a full melee class
Not to speak contrary to your suggestions in any negative way, but I was not fond of the proposed changes in favor of melee hunter by the team and I think your proposed revisions to those incoming changes are only like a bandage over another bandage. I think what melee hunter needs, aside from definitely having abilities scale with AP, is better synergy with their pet, and maybe small cooldown reduction to raptor strike as their main melee ability.

If no-one knows what this looks like the Vanilla+ model for hunters is quite good in this regard as they have synergy all over. I would love to see some mechanics, abilities, or modifications to existing abilities that synergized better with the hunters pet.

The incoming Lacerate does not interest me in the least other than we are already starved for abilities. We already have Serpent Sting for a proper DoT. Serpent Sting is also quite efficient yielding about 2dmg/1mp.
Augustfenix85 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:03 am
While I like the idea of traps in combat, it would have to be something like the Rogue’s Improved Sap in talents to be fair.
Maybe add it into the talent Trap Mastery

Also I can see serpent sting have a melee option: serpent strike
Hunter can use traps in combat by exploiting feign death. The problem is it requires some skill to pull off, and even then it may be resisted. The problem with this is it feels more exploitive, not something that even makes sense. Secondly it adds an extra 80mp just to cast your trap in combat, and if your FD is resisted, that is a huge loss of mp for nothing from it.

Perhaps hunter could get a Natures Swiftness sort of ability that would allow them to drop a trap in combat - maybe for no mp too?
Raukodor wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:32 pm
Hey can we get at least melee hunter skills scale with ap and cause +weapon damage? To do a significative damage
This is a must. I think a 2sec reduction to raptor strike would also be sufficient. It should be a talent.
Allwynd01 wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:28 pm
Merikkinon wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 3:47 pm
Raukodor wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:51 pm
But mana is not eternal. Changing froms aspect to aspect. And feinging death to cast trap.in combat will drain your mana
So... maybe there needs to be a talent that decreases mana costs for changing aspects? It would seem to me that melee hunters (and I've never played one so take that with a grain of salt in my commentary) would be the 'stance-dancers' of the hunter world?

To me, that would be appealing (a talent to encourage aspects shifts by melee hunters).
I think switching between aspects is not a viable way to play a hunter, it would make it very much like Warrior Stances or Paladin Auras. There needs to be something really unique about Hunter that sets them apart from the other classes.

From what I've read about WoW's development, the Hunter was the most unique class and the one the developers poured the most love into.
I agree, and it does not appeal to me at all to swap stances for this purpose. I'm not a fan of Aspect of the Wolf at all. It is entirely boring and a poor implementation of increased AP. Vanilla+ opted to give Aspect of Monkey lower dodge changes, but a talent option increases your crit chance by a bit while using it. Also survival had some melee ability that had different effects depending on the aspect you were using. I think some multidimensional elements such as these would be great for hunter, not just a passive aspect to increase damage and limit ranged. Zzzzzzzz.
Mikecrow wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:01 am
as far as the melee ability thing goes, that remains to be seen whether or not they are strong enough but they should make a talent that periodically causes you to proc counterattack without parrying like maybe a % of the time when you use mongoose bite or dodge an attack to promote monkey synergy? Maybe a talent that causes raptor strike to increase the damage of mongoose bite?
You see, now this is some good stuff! This is the kind of multidimensional synergy we need. And it's much more fun sounding.

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Raukodor
Posts: 326

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Raukodor » Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:05 pm

In early version of wow the talent spirit bond is the last BM talent and it heals you hp every time your pet does damage.

Maybe something like this?

Or make a talent that put a debuff in the mob that cause increased melee damage or +% to crit in melee
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Raukodor
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Raukodor » Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:06 pm

But mostly and easiest way is make tje current melee skills scale with ap and s talent that reduces the cd of raptor strike
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