Protection Warrior: Block vs Magic, Silences, & AoE Threat

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Rytz
Posts: 52

Protection Warrior: Block vs Magic, Silences, & AoE Threat

Post by Rytz » Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:16 am

Hi:

Block vs Magic
Warriors should be able to block magic-based attacks so that Revenge (our highest threat producer) can activate. A lot of times these caster mobs also silence, making it difficult to hold agro. Allowing blocks to occur for magical attacks would help alleviate the frustration and even the playing field.

Silences
On the topic of silences, warrior taunts and shouts should not be affected by them (Demo Shout, Battle Shout, Thunder Clap, etc). Silences should only affect actual magic abilities for caster classes. If you take the term "silence" literally I suppose it makes sense but from a fantasy RPG standpoint, it makes more sense to have mutes/silences be specific to actual magic and not a voice literally shouting.

AoE Threat
Finally, Warrior AoE abilities should get a boost in threat generation. Thunder Clap, Demoralizing Shout, and Battle Shout. I'm not sure what a fair amount is. Perhaps double or triple. This would alleviate some of the multi-mob struggles for tanks that don't have access to a Thunderfury.

These changes would be a nice minor boost to prot warriors and also bring them more in line against hybrid tanks when not end-game geared.

Thanks.
Last edited by Rytz on Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Sinrek
Posts: 821

Re: Protection Warrior: Improvements: Block vs Magic, Silences, & AoE Threat

Post by Sinrek » Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:17 am

Rytz wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:16 am
Hi:

Block vs Magic
Warriors should be able to block magic-based attacks so that Revenge (our highest threat producer) can activate. A lot of times these caster mobs also silence, making it difficult to hold aggro. Allowing blocks to occur for magical attacks would help alleviate the frustration and even the playing field.
Absolutely agree with this one. I've already suggested to our team weave this into Improved Shield Block talent. We'll see how things will work out on this one.

Rytz wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:16 am
Silences
On the topic of silences, warrior taunts and shouts should not be affected by them (Demo Shout, Battle Shout, Thunder Clap, etc). Silences should only affect actual magic abilities for caster classes. If you take the term "silence" literally I suppose it makes sense but from a fantasy RPG standpoint, it makes more sense to have mutes/silences be specific to actual magic and not a voice literally shouting.
Agree only partially. The Silence effect shouldn't shut warrior's Thunder Clap for no reason. Shouts should be affected. Reason - spell name makes it that obvious. You're silenced magically, so it should affect any chants you produce including those you use your vocal cords for.

Rytz wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:16 am
AoE Threat
Finally, Warrior AoE abilities should get a boost in threat generation. Thunder Clap, Demoralizing Shout, and Battle Shout. I'm not sure what a fair amount is. Perhaps double or triple. This would alleviate some of the multi-mob struggles for tanks that don't have access to a Thunderfury.
This one is purely skill-based and Thunderfury isn't required for effective AoE tanking tbf. It's about how you build your warrior and the rotations you use. However, I'd like to see the warrior's Thunder Clap affect all enemies around affected by it when cast + Cleave should affect every target in front of the warrior in a cone similar to mage's Cone of Cold. Of course, damage should be split when there are more than 4 targets due to sheer weapon and physical capabilities to deal such type of damage + it's spammable so there should be some kind of trade-off.
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Rytz
Posts: 52

Re: Protection Warrior: Improvements: Block vs Magic, Silences, & AoE Threat

Post by Rytz » Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:03 pm

Sinrek wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:17 am
Agree only partially. The Silence effect shouldn't shut warrior's Thunder Clap for no reason. Shouts should be affected. Reason - spell name makes it that obvious. You're silenced magically, so it should affect any chants you produce including those you use your vocal cords for.
The difference for me is that I don't interpret a warrior's abilities to be "magical" and, in most RPG games I've played, mutes and silences affect only magical abilities. The obvious contrast is a Paladin tank, which uses magic to offset and boost their abilities. Warrior abilities should be antithetical to magic.
Sinrek wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:17 am
This one is purely skill-based and Thunderfury isn't required for effective AoE tanking tbf. It's about how you build your warrior and the rotations you use. However, I'd like to see the warrior's Thunder Clap affect all enemies around affected by it when cast + Cleave should affect every target in front of the warrior in a cone similar to mage's Cone of Cold. Of course, damage should be split when there are more than 4 targets due to sheer weapon and physical capabilities to deal such type of damage + it's spammable so there should be some kind of trade-off.
There is an argument to be made about being skilled enough to play a mini game of ping-pong and continuously bounce between three or more mobs with an optimal rotation. However, there is only so far a good rotation will take you when holding threat against multiple level 59+ elite mobs and a decently geared group. I'm also not suggesting a Thunderfury-level AoE boost.

I'm not sure what abilities are best to boost to help with Warrior AoE threat but, as it is now, I feel the options are very lackluster. Whatever that boost is, it should be spammable (within reason) and not be based on raw damage output. I could see that as a better Improved Thunder Clap or a boost to Battle / Demo Shout threat. My concern with cleave is that it's a damage-based threat generator and would push min/max builds like Fury Prot even further ahead of protection in terms of threat generation.

Thunder Clap seems like the standout Warrior ability and it would be nice if its threat scaled with some value (like Strength or even Block Value) so that it could be similar to Paladin Consecrate and spell power.

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Lahire
Posts: 132

Re: Protection Warrior: Improvements: Block vs Magic, Silences, & AoE Threat

Post by Lahire » Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:03 pm

The idea and name of "silence" comes from Dungeons and Dragons. In this RPG, a mage has to speak an incantation to produce magic (though some spells only need gesture). In D&D, "Silence" is literal: it is an ability that stops your capacity of producing sounds with your mouth. A mage cannot incantate, and players cannot even communicate.

I am pretty sure WoW silence is the same idea, as it is directly picked from D&D. It is not a question of "magic vs non-magic" but of "sound-based effect vs non-sound-based effect".
How can a warrior literally reduced to silence shout ? That would be strange.
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Tobbsu
Posts: 12

Re: Protection Warrior: Improvements: Block vs Magic, Silences, & AoE Threat

Post by Tobbsu » Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:51 pm

Block vs Magic:
No if prot paladin have to deal with magic melee damage so have warriors two.
Silences:
I do agree with Thunder Clap.
AoE Threat:
Sure that is fine and all however the more warrior prot will be buffed then lower change prot paladin will ever be invite'd keep in mind only exist room for 1 prot paladin and is never reason to get 2.

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Rytz
Posts: 52

Re: Protection Warrior: Improvements: Block vs Magic, Silences, & AoE Threat

Post by Rytz » Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:41 pm

Lahire wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:03 pm
The idea and name of "silence" comes from Dungeons and Dragons. In this RPG, a mage has to speak an incantation to produce magic (though some spells only need gesture). In D&D, "Silence" is literal: it is an ability that stops your capacity of producing sounds with your mouth. A mage cannot incantate, and players cannot even communicate.

I am pretty sure WoW silence is the same idea, as it is directly picked from D&D. It is not a question of "magic vs non-magic" but of "sound-based effect vs non-sound-based effect".
How can a warrior literally reduced to silence shout ? That would be strange.
WoW/Warcraft may have D&D influences but it's obviously not following all D&D rules. The WoW definition for silence is:

Code: Select all

Silences the target, preventing them from casting spells for 5 sec.
https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=15487/silence
From a technical standpoint, WoW tends to call abilities "spells" regardless if it's a physical ability or not. For example, Shield Slam is considered a spell and is in the school of physical. If you look at all of the Warrior shouts, taunts, and Thunder Clap, they are all considered to be the same (a spell of physical type).

This is the reason why I contest that Warrior abilities should not be affected by silence. If everything is considered a spell in a technical sense, there should be a separation for what schools silence actually affects. Silence should not affect physical abilities.

If you want to go strictly by what is labeled as "shout", then both Taunt and Thunder Clap should not be affected by silence, whereas Challenging Shout, Demo Shout, and Battle Shout would. This seems silly to me. If one taunt works, then both should.
Tobbsu wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:51 pm
Block vs Magic:
No if prot paladin have to deal with magic melee damage so have warriors two.
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean "magic melee damage".
Tobbsu wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:51 pm
AoE Threat:
Sure that is fine and all however the more warrior prot will be buffed then lower change prot paladin will ever be invite'd keep in mind only exist room for 1 prot paladin and is never reason to get 2.
Paladins are already overpowered as a hybrid class with access to plate armor, average DPS, healing, auras, and great cooldowns at all times. Protection Paladin should not be on par with a Protection Warrior as Warrior is not a hybrid class and does not provide Protection spec with any extra unique features. At best Prot Warrior gets Improved Shield Wall and Last Stand.

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Tobbsu
Posts: 12

Re: Protection Warrior: Improvements: Block vs Magic, Silences, & AoE Threat

Post by Tobbsu » Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:03 am

(1) Warriors have Plate two.
(2) Healing is impossible to do ("you have to deal with puch back") if you are the one is attacked if not healing cost very much mana and if prot paladin is in full tank gear with none mp 5 yea you really what save as much mana you can.
(3) which cooldowns are you talking about the Lay of Hand? that is 1hr cooldown 40 min with 2 talent points ("Kills all your mana") and it come to bobble that one is only for to remove bad Ability´s or spells however with 5 min cooldown but that it and it have to be cancel super fast if you one how is attacked.
(4) To make the warrior the only chosen tank in all raids is like telling Druid and Paladin to back off to different role and I don't mind to see shaman have change to join the ranks as tank.

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Valadorn
Posts: 53

Re: Protection Warrior: Improvements: Block vs Magic, Silences, & AoE Threat

Post by Valadorn » Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:42 am

Rytz wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:41 pm
Lahire wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:03 pm
The idea and name of "silence" comes from Dungeons and Dragons. In this RPG, a mage has to speak an incantation to produce magic (though some spells only need gesture). In D&D, "Silence" is literal: it is an ability that stops your capacity of producing sounds with your mouth. A mage cannot incantate, and players cannot even communicate.

I am pretty sure WoW silence is the same idea, as it is directly picked from D&D. It is not a question of "magic vs non-magic" but of "sound-based effect vs non-sound-based effect".
How can a warrior literally reduced to silence shout ? That would be strange.
WoW/Warcraft may have D&D influences but it's obviously not following all D&D rules. The WoW definition for silence is:

Code: Select all

Silences the target, preventing them from casting spells for 5 sec.
https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=15487/silence
From a technical standpoint, WoW tends to call abilities "spells" regardless if it's a physical ability or not. For example, Shield Slam is considered a spell and is in the school of physical. If you look at all of the Warrior shouts, taunts, and Thunder Clap, they are all considered to be the same (a spell of physical type).

This is the reason why I contest that Warrior abilities should not be affected by silence. If everything is considered a spell in a technical sense, there should be a separation for what schools silence actually affects. Silence should not affect physical abilities.

If you want to go strictly by what is labeled as "shout", then both Taunt and Thunder Clap should not be affected by silence, whereas Challenging Shout, Demo Shout, and Battle Shout would. This seems silly to me. If one taunt works, then both should.
Tobbsu wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:51 pm
Block vs Magic:
No if prot paladin have to deal with magic melee damage so have warriors two.
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean "magic melee damage".
Tobbsu wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:51 pm
AoE Threat:
Sure that is fine and all however the more warrior prot will be buffed then lower change prot paladin will ever be invite'd keep in mind only exist room for 1 prot paladin and is never reason to get 2.
Paladins are already overpowered as a hybrid class with access to plate armor, average DPS, healing, auras, and great cooldowns at all times. Protection Paladin should not be on par with a Protection Warrior as Warrior is not a hybrid class and does not provide Protection spec with any extra unique features. At best Prot Warrior gets Improved Shield Wall and Last Stand.
Taunt implies you provoke the enemy with your words, which you cant rly do when silent. While mocking blow hits the enemy in weird places, which you dont need to talk to do

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Rytz
Posts: 52

Re: Protection Warrior: Improvements: Block vs Magic, Silences, & AoE Threat

Post by Rytz » Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:36 pm

Valadorn wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:42 am
Taunt implies you provoke the enemy with your words, which you cant rly do when silent. While mocking blow hits the enemy in weird places, which you dont need to talk to do

Code: Select all

https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=355/taunt
Taunts the target to attack you, but has no effect if the target is already attacking you.
A taunt by WoW definition implies nothing regarding using ones voice and the actual definition of the word taunt does not describe a vocal requirement.

Code: Select all

transitive verb
: to reproach or challenge in a mocking or insulting manner : jeer at
Something like "the middle finger" can be considered a taunt which has nothing to do with using words.

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Rytz
Posts: 52

Re: Protection Warrior: Improvements: Block vs Magic, Silences, & AoE Threat

Post by Rytz » Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:34 pm

Tobbsu wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:03 am
(1) Warriors have Plate two.
Yes, Warriors have plate. Not sure what your point is here. Warrior is not a hybrid class. You can't make an equal comparison between the two classes. A better question is why don't shamans have plate if paladins do.
Tobbsu wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:03 am
(2) Healing is impossible to do ("you have to deal with puch back") if you are the one is attacked if not healing cost very much mana and if prot paladin is in full tank gear with none mp 5 yea you really what save as much mana you can.
(3) which cooldowns are you talking about the Lay of Hand? that is 1hr cooldown 40 min with 2 talent points ("Kills all your mana") and it come to bobble that one is only for to remove bad Ability´s or spells however with 5 min cooldown but that it and it have to be cancel super fast if you one how is attacked.
Your survivability as a Paladin is unmatched. Even bear tanks have to be in bear form to use their tanking abilities. They can't even use consumables in bear form.

As I mentioned before, (outside of mana) you have no requirement to use plate, healing, bubbles, lay on hands, auras (mana free), blessings, and even resurrection spells. I'm probably missing other utilities as well. And regarding the mana problem, you can always pop pots as needed. Paladins have some of the best buffs in the game, regardless of spec. The best single target heals if I'm not mistaken. The only place paladins are weak is in raw DPS and they plateau faster later in the game because of end-game gear options/optimization.

You could easily run dungeons with a 5-man paladin group of the same spec. It would be inefficient, but it would work. Why? Because of all the abilities you have access to at any given time. Obviously, this is not possible with Warrior as it is actually requires support from other classes to make it viable: a healer and an actual DPS class.

Warriors are either PvP (arms), DPS (fury), or Tank (prot). Warriors either deal damage or take it, especially when considering the spec. DPS as a Protection Warrior is complete trash. The only exception is Fury Prot later (gear dependent) which I think should be tweaked so it's not viable. We have no access to healing, bubbles, auras, blessings, (damn, imagine if warriors had access to blessing of freedom), or resurrection spells. Solo survivability relies completely on shield wall, last stand, a potential fear (generally not viable in PvE or raids), or just combat strategy/luck.
Tobbsu wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:03 am
(4) To make the warrior the only chosen tank in all raids is like telling Druid and Paladin to back off to different role and I don't mind to see shaman have change to join the ranks as tank.
I'm not saying that Paladin or Bear should be excluded as potential tanks in dungeons or raids or that they should even get a nerf. Nobody wants their class nerfed. I'm saying that, because Warrior is not a hybrid class, Protection Warrior should be the best tank because we bring nothing else to the table outside of taunts, damage mitigation, and battle shout. We have very poor utility and limited survivability without the help of others.

A hybrid class should not be best at anything and should not be on par with a non-hybrid class role.

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Velite
Posts: 90

Re: Protection Warrior: Improvements: Block vs Magic, Silences, & AoE Threat

Post by Velite » Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:13 am

Warrior is a hybrid class for the same reason Priest is. You can fufill more than one role. A pure class is only able to fulfill one role. There are 4 pure classes: mage warlock hunter rogue. They can only dps. Warrior and Priest are more limited hybrids compared to Druid and Paladin, but you would also call Shaman a hybrid even though they are mostly just Damage/Healing. To say warrior is not a hybrid is to say they're a pure class and should be balanced as a pure class which they are not, which is kind of the problem already and why they are very overpowered.

By design then, classes which can fulfill more than one role are not the best at any one role. But seeing as how warrior is the only tank that can't heal, it is the best tank, which it currently is.

Having said that, I do think that deep protection should be what is required of tanking in raids, and should remain the best option for a main tank. The offtanks can afford to be dps warriors however. But I definitely think deep protection could be buffed just like the other tank specs in the game could be buffed.

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Rytz
Posts: 52

Re: Protection Warrior: Improvements: Block vs Magic, Silences, & AoE Threat

Post by Rytz » Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:10 am

Velite wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:13 am
Warrior is a hybrid class for the same reason Priest is. You can fufill more than one role.
Saying warrior is a hybrid class is quite a stretch. They are locked into a pure role based on their spec. As a protection warrior, my DPS is not even average. I can't "access" any better DPS unless I respec. Warriors are either PvP (average DPS), Fury (top DPS), or Tank (very low DPS). The argument can be made that hunters can do light tanking with their pets (some even have a taunt) and even by kiting. Rogues could technically evade tank if they needed. Mages and warlocks could both potentially tank magic-based targets (like in the example of Twin Emps with warlocks).

And with regards to off-tanking when spec'ed for DPS, any of the tank classes can off-tank in any spec (assuming they have some gear for it).

I have never played a priest but I would wager that the healing of a shadow priest when out of Shadowform is better in comparison to a protection warrior trying to DPS.
Velite wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:13 am
To say warrior is not a hybrid is to say they're a pure class and should be balanced as a pure class which they are not, which is kind of the problem already and why they are very overpowered.
If you're talking about Fury or even Fury/Prot being too overpowered, then I agree with you. Otherwise, I don't.

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Valadorn
Posts: 53

Re: Protection Warrior: Improvements: Block vs Magic, Silences, & AoE Threat

Post by Valadorn » Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:52 am

Rytz wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:36 pm
Valadorn wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:42 am
Taunt implies you provoke the enemy with your words, which you cant rly do when silent. While mocking blow hits the enemy in weird places, which you dont need to talk to do

Code: Select all

https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=355/taunt
Taunts the target to attack you, but has no effect if the target is already attacking you.
A taunt by WoW definition implies nothing regarding using ones voice and the actual definition of the word taunt does not describe a vocal requirement.

Code: Select all

transitive verb
: to reproach or challenge in a mocking or insulting manner : jeer at
Something like "the middle finger" can be considered a taunt which has nothing to do with using words.
It has a shouting animation.

User avatar
Rytz
Posts: 52

Re: Protection Warrior: Improvements: Block vs Magic, Silences, & AoE Threat

Post by Rytz » Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:08 am

Valadorn wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:52 am
It has a shouting animation.
Animations are dependent upon race. Goblins do not shout.

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