Remove or Expand Debuff Limit

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Fizzles
Posts: 13

Remove or Expand Debuff Limit

Post by Fizzles » Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:37 am

It will be nice if the debuff limit is removed or expanded. It will help meme specs like spriests become relevant since they depend on debuff slots. It will also be a QoL for us raiders, so we don’t have to reapply armor pen or magic pen debuffs when they fall off due to extra debuffs. It should not have a significant impact on the difficulty of the raiding scene here since most debuffs are minor damage dots.

Usually, raid groups have enough debuff slots to render a boss’s armor and resistance to 0, so extra debuffs on the boss should not affect much.

Please consider this request

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Velite
Posts: 57

Re: Remove or Expand Debuff Limit

Post by Velite » Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:14 am

Alternatively consider raising the debuff cap without debuffs being visible. Pose this choice to the community since it seems like being able to display the debuffs is not possible and that is currently the reason why we have not raised the cap.

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Lahire
Posts: 78

Re: Remove or Expand Debuff Limit

Post by Lahire » Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:51 am

This idea is difficult to deploy because it would require a real commitment to rebalancing bosses' stats so the experience doesn't fizzle into an even easier one than vanilla is already.
It is possible that we will learn from the "season of mastery" experience that it is a far more difficult idea to do than most people think. I'm feeling that raids in SoM beta will be a less enjoyable experience and a nightmare to tune for the developers (if they care ; it is probable they won't tune it because they are like "whatever").
Lets wait and watch what happens with SoM and use these informations to ponder about this kind of changes.
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Tarluk
Posts: 25

Re: Remove or Expand Debuff Limit

Post by Tarluk » Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:32 am

Velite wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:14 am
Alternatively consider raising the debuff cap without debuffs being visible. Pose this choice to the community since it seems like being able to display the debuffs is not possible and that is currently the reason why we have not raised the cap.
Yeah; for those who don't know, it's totally possible and even pretty easy to expand the debuff limit to whatever you want it to be on the server. The problem is that the amount of debuffs that are visible on the target doesn't increase, that's still limited to 16 debuffs due to a limitation on the client-side and it's simply not doable for the Turtle devs to be able to remove that through binary editing or what have you. And while the debuffs themselves have some level of priority due to the debuff limit system, that doesn't apply to their level of visibility on the target. So you could theoretically have debuffs like Curses and Sunder Armor that are very important to track being covered up by a bunch of Serpent Stings and Deep Wounds and Fireball DoTs, and it

I know Dragunovi said that it wouldn't be professional at all to increase the debuff slots in that manner without solving the visibility problem, unless someone else can manage to find a way to make an addon that acts as a decent-enough indirect workaround for it; I can't say he's wrong in that regard. What I do wonder is how much people in the raiding scene are going to really care, both at entry-levels and all the way up at AQ40-Naxx levels, and in terms of getting such an addon out there, whether you need to get the debuff limit changes out there so that those who are talented with making addons would pursue such a project in the first place. Not everyone's active in the Discord or forums, so not everyone would know that changing the debuff limit is something that's actually on the devs' radar provided that the addon can be made.

I reckon that most entry-level raiders aren't going to care one bit that maybe debuffs can't be tracked quite as well when it means that much more of their abilities can finally come into play in raids and warlocks especially can really come into their own (if there's one way you're gonna get tons of people to roll Warlock and want to come to Turtle WoW as a result, it's removing the debuff limit that's limited them by so much in Vanilla raids). But I do wonder what folks higher up, like the folks in that server first Naxx raid team, would think of the consequences of removing the debuff limit and having that limited debuff visibility.
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Yutilk
Posts: 127
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Re: Remove or Expand Debuff Limit

Post by Yutilk » Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:14 am

Is this in reaction to WoW Classic Season of Mastery removing the debuff limit?

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Tarluk
Posts: 25

Re: Remove or Expand Debuff Limit

Post by Tarluk » Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:57 am

Yutilk wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:14 am
Is this in reaction to WoW Classic Season of Mastery removing the debuff limit?
Probably not. The hope of Classic+ type servers removing the debuff limit has existed for as long as the idea of Classic+ has existed.
Last edited by Tarluk on Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jamey
Posts: 4

Re: Remove or Expand Debuff Limit

Post by Jamey » Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:21 pm

This would be possible through the use of an addon modifying the UI. And while it would also be possible to do it through client modifications solely, it would be completely infeasible. We might look into this and raising the quest log cap after rolling out 1.15.2 but I can't promise anything.

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Velite
Posts: 57

Re: Remove or Expand Debuff Limit

Post by Velite » Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:48 pm

Yutilk wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:14 am
Is this in reaction to WoW Classic Season of Mastery removing the debuff limit?
we have been asking to remove the debuff limit forever, Wow should not have a debuff limit it is a technical bug/limitation, it was never intended to affect the behavior of classes but it unfortunately does in 40 man raiding. Now that Classic is removing the debuff limit that will be the kick-in-the-behind to get it finally done.

What the debuff limit ultimately does is constrain your dps roster to only be the best dps in the game, because all the other dps specs take up too many debuff slots in order to deliver their value, aka balance druids, afflicition warlocks, shadow priests. Removing the debuff limit will only increase the dps of the optimal composition (30 warriors) by a small margin due to deep wounds being persistent. This remains the optimal composition to play and the speed clear time only goes down by a minute at best.

What you get in exchange is people being able to play their suboptimal builds relative to fury warriors. And personally, letting people play what they want is a better design because it leads to more fun which is what the game is about, no? You can take it to my grave, removing the debuff limit in vanilla wow WILL NOT CHANGE THE META, warrior mage and rogue will remain S tier classes for DPS.

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Lahire
Posts: 78

Re: Remove or Expand Debuff Limit

Post by Lahire » Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:11 pm

The debuff limit was indeed confirmed by Kevin Jordan to be a technical limitation and not a design choice. I just checked again one of his interviews to verify it.
The visibility limit is a real problem though.
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