Some Class Tweaks

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Mr. Bigglesworth
Posts: 2

Some Class Tweaks

Post by Mr. Bigglesworth » Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:58 am

Hi,

I'd like to see a few tweaks to classes to make them more enjoyable and viable, please. I like the direction with the few changes we've got so far. Since we've added these changes already, I think it would make sense to go full effect with them.

I'd like to see Paladin buffs be set to 30 minutes or an hour, so we don't have paladins as buff bots in end game. I'd also like the Paladin Judgment to not dispel their Seal. Next, and maybe this is controversial, but I'd like Holy Strike to be an instant cast, rather than a Paladin's Heroic Strike. Finally, I'd love giving Paladins a taunt. (I also understand their gear for DPS / Tanking in raids and PvP isn't the best, so some help with that would be nice.)

I know this is a lot, and maybe some would say it's too different from the spirit that the original class balance gave to Classic WoW, but if I'm being honest, I can't imagine anyone complaining about these changes.

I don't play a Paladin, but I definitely would if these changes were made.


As for some other small things, I don't really have great solutions, but if they could be worked on I'd love to see it:
- Shadow Priest and Moonkin mana management
- Something to tweak threat so DPS don't have times of sitting and not playing the game
- I'd like to see Druids get a Revive, which as far as I know they don't have yet
- I don't know if it's possible, but instead of having a boss have a global debuff limit (as in, a debuff limit for everyone's debuffs combined total), I'd like to see a debuff limit for individual characters (for example, no total limit, but every character could only cast 2 of THEIR debuffs on a boss. Just a rough idea)
- Relax the limit on HoTs, maybe something like diminishing returns instead (if possible)
- Let feral druid parry (a talent maybe? claw parry?) and maybe better gear itemization for tanking
- General tier improvements for Warlock, Mage and other classes/specs that don't get all the stats they need from tier items
- Maybe a talent for warriors that gives movement speed when below a certain level of health so they can escape easier and not die to mobs while leveling as much

These are just some thoughts off the top of my head. Let me know what you think, I'd like to start a discussion. I can't imagine why anyone would complain about solving these prolems, though I recognize my solutions probably (most likely) aren't perfect lol. I understand people want it to feel like Vanilla still, but I still think we can keep that feeling while making some peoples' lives easier and letting people really thrive in the roles they truly want to play.

Okay thanks.

(Also maybe keep the turtle mount but remove the movement speed buff? idk that's just how I feel...)

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Camanchaca
Posts: 4

Re: Some Class Tweaks

Post by Camanchaca » Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:58 am

Nice post, i'd add to enable Insect Swarm casting while in moonkin form for balance druids. That would be a small but infinitely valuable improvement

Crazyhelix
Posts: 10

Re: Some Class Tweaks

Post by Crazyhelix » Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:00 am

1000% rigth way. This project is 1 that doing changes not this stupid blizzlike copy and only here we have a chance to see how game can changes rigth way.
Problem is that Blizz made this game in THIS condition. But allmost 20 years ago nobody knows how to make it better. But today gamedev goes far away from 2000x and i 100% believe that ANY OLD game that want to be avaible have to make some changes with eye on reality.

Game really has much of gamedesign problems:

Druid - bad moonkin and feral
Hunter - only 1 spec work (but even that 1 have much of useless talents), first of all cause of weak Pet's
Mage - no Arcane spec, full frost dominating in all game aspects
Pala - only Heal is really playable
Priest - Disc? huh forget about it, bad threat and mana management at Shadow...
Shaman - bad Ench (btw it could be realized like Tank but not with THIS talent branch) even like DPS
Warlock - Affliction dominating
Rogue and Warrior - dont know even superficially, never played them seriously. But i know that some specs are underdogs anyway

All the problems grows from OLD class design. But world of Vanilla is very good. So now we have a chance to save this really interesting world and give it more enjoable classes with playable cpecs. Really hope (even praying) on this.
And even have decent ideas about it (even full talent/ability and global remaking).

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Lahire
Posts: 70

Re: Some Class Tweaks

Post by Lahire » Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:34 am

Again people who look at "balance" from the tiny narrow view of "raid optimal" and completely forget that 1/ there are other experiences than raiding in the game 2/ theme and fantasy comes before raid optimality 3/ homogenization is one of the things that killed retail

Most of what is listed are not "design problems" but thematic qualities. I cringed at "paladin 30min buff" : it was a design goal to make each class feel different and the cycle of pala buffs, though "inconvenient" in raid, was part of the tactical feel the class designer K. Jordan aimed for.

The axiom of this attitude is : "balance means that all spec do more or less equivalent damage/heal/tanking in raid". Only criteria used. That's so obviously opposite to good mmo design (which thinks about every aspects of the game and rpg fantasy) I don't understand people fall for it.
This attitude is what retail is made for. Only thinking about raiding, wanting to homogenize, no care for the fantasy goal of each class.

If class tweaks are made, it must come from a place of vanilla design mentality, not from this narrow homogenization.
Last edited by Lahire on Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
Main: Whitemare

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Yutilk
Posts: 124
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Re: Some Class Tweaks

Post by Yutilk » Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:40 am

Personally I like how the classes are balanced currently.

Crazyhelix
Posts: 10

Re: Some Class Tweaks

Post by Crazyhelix » Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:04 am

Lahire wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:34 am
Again people who look at "balance" from the tiny narrow view of "raid optimal" and completely forget that 1/ there are other experiences than raiding in the game 2/ theme and fantasy comes before raid optimality 3/ homogenization is one of the things that killed retail

Most of what is listed are not "design problems" but thematic qualities. I cringed at "paladin 30min buff" : it was a design goal to make each class feel different and the cycle of pala buffs, though "inconvenient" in raid, was part of the tactical feel the class designer K. Jordan aimed for.

The axiom of this attitude is : "balance means that all spec do more or less equivalent damage/heal/tanking in raid". Only criteria used. That's so obviously opposite to good mmo design (which thinks about every aspects of the game and rpg fantasy) I don't understand people fall for it.
This attitude is what retail is made for. Only thinking about raiding, wanting to homogenize, no care for the fantasy goal of each class.

If class tweaks are made, it must come from a place of vanilla design mentality, not from this narrow homogenization.
Absolutely misunderstanding of base principals of gamedesign/gameplay making.

About suggetion of TS about 30 min duration of Pala's Blesses - bad idea. But current 5 minutes much worse. if we take "own spirit of gameplay" or "feeling of gameprocess" like criteria then 10 minute duration of Blesses will meet all condition.

Next: nodoby tells about any gomogenisation - it's only inside your RP brain. Rather the opposite i want to highligth the features of Classes and it's specs.
How the atmosphere of "RP flowers" will suffer if classes talents/ability will work properly and even forming different game mechanics? (Spam of Frostbolt and Lightnings sends you "hi") You have very distorted perseption about balance fixes (and i can understand it - Blizz shows us How to DO NEVER, but no good example of rigth way). But you Lahire reacting at absolutely any changing like on 100% evil thing - wrong wrong and 1 more WRONG

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Camanchaca
Posts: 4

Re: Some Class Tweaks

Post by Camanchaca » Mon Oct 04, 2021 1:08 pm

I agree changing spells/abilities may be complicated in most cases, and that testing is very important for this actions.

However I'd like to add that another way of balancing is by giving proper gear to specs that almost did not have any viable choice in original vanilla (for ex. protection paladin). Having a tier set for each spec is a good start and should be easier to implement and test, and I think turtle wow is already doing a good work in this direction.

Mr. Bigglesworth
Posts: 2

Re: Some Class Tweaks

Post by Mr. Bigglesworth » Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:20 am

Lahire wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:34 am
Again people who look at "balance" from the tiny narrow view of "raid optimal" and completely forget that 1/ there are other experiences than raiding in the game 2/ theme and fantasy comes before raid optimality 3/ homogenization is one of the things that killed retail

Most of what is listed are not "design problems" but thematic qualities. I cringed at "paladin 30min buff" : it was a design goal to make each class feel different and the cycle of pala buffs, though "inconvenient" in raid, was part of the tactical feel the class designer K. Jordan aimed for.

The axiom of this attitude is : "balance means that all spec do more or less equivalent damage/heal/tanking in raid". Only criteria used. That's so obviously opposite to good mmo design (which thinks about every aspects of the game and rpg fantasy) I don't understand people fall for it.
This attitude is what retail is made for. Only thinking about raiding, wanting to homogenize, no care for the fantasy goal of each class.

If class tweaks are made, it must come from a place of vanilla design mentality, not from this narrow homogenization.
Okay.

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Nerasw
Posts: 15

Re: Some Class Tweaks

Post by Nerasw » Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:20 pm

Lahire wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:34 am
Again people who look at "balance" from the tiny narrow view of "raid optimal" and completely forget that 1/ there are other experiences than raiding in the game 2/ theme and fantasy comes before raid optimality 3/ homogenization is one of the things that killed retail

Most of what is listed are not "design problems" but thematic qualities. I cringed at "paladin 30min buff" : it was a design goal to make each class feel different and the cycle of pala buffs, though "inconvenient" in raid, was part of the tactical feel the class designer K. Jordan aimed for.

The axiom of this attitude is : "balance means that all spec do more or less equivalent damage/heal/tanking in raid". Only criteria used. That's so obviously opposite to good mmo design (which thinks about every aspects of the game and rpg fantasy) I don't understand people fall for it.
This attitude is what retail is made for. Only thinking about raiding, wanting to homogenize, no care for the fantasy goal of each class.

If class tweaks are made, it must come from a place of vanilla design mentality, not from this narrow homogenization.
Omg some1 said that ppl would be happier if we fix result of bad desision of past like "enh being half viable cuz blizz had no clue if it would be tank or not"...
Some one call Lahire!!! No one can hold the time... Only lahidromu the keeper of the past.

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Nerasw
Posts: 15

Re: Some Class Tweaks

Post by Nerasw » Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:33 pm

Crazyhelix wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:04 am
Lahire wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:34 am
Again people who look at "balance" from the tiny narrow view of "raid optimal" and completely forget that 1/ there are other experiences than raiding in the game 2/ theme and fantasy comes before raid optimality 3/ homogenization is one of the things that killed retail

Most of what is listed are not "design problems" but thematic qualities. I cringed at "paladin 30min buff" : it was a design goal to make each class feel different and the cycle of pala buffs, though "inconvenient" in raid, was part of the tactical feel the class designer K. Jordan aimed for.

The axiom of this attitude is : "balance means that all spec do more or less equivalent damage/heal/tanking in raid". Only criteria used. That's so obviously opposite to good mmo design (which thinks about every aspects of the game and rpg fantasy) I don't understand people fall for it.
This attitude is what retail is made for. Only thinking about raiding, wanting to homogenize, no care for the fantasy goal of each class.

If class tweaks are made, it must come from a place of vanilla design mentality, not from this narrow homogenization.
Absolutely misunderstanding of base principals of gamedesign/gameplay making.

About suggetion of TS about 30 min duration of Pala's Blesses - bad idea. But current 5 minutes much worse. if we take "own spirit of gameplay" or "feeling of gameprocess" like criteria then 10 minute duration of Blesses will meet all condition.

Next: nodoby tells about any gomogenisation - it's only inside your RP brain. Rather the opposite i want to highligth the features of Classes and it's specs.
How the atmosphere of "RP flowers" will suffer if classes talents/ability will work properly and even forming different game mechanics? (Spam of Frostbolt and Lightnings sends you "hi") You have very distorted perseption about balance fixes (and i can understand it - Blizz shows us How to DO NEVER, but no good example of rigth way). But you Lahire reacting at absolutely any changing like on 100% evil thing - wrong wrong and 1 more WRONG
Or mb he/she just dont understand that if we would be glad to play on this server it is more chances server become more and more populated
And that is good for rp too
At the other side if no 1 will play there will be no company for lahire the hater. Who would laught at thos stoopit pivipiers with you if server would be dead like numeorus of others deadborn clones of halfdead sheep?

The only reason WoW not died in 1st 3 years was devs who gave ppl constant feeling of close changes that will fix everything. The feeling that tomorrow will be better. Constant changes... Yep not perfect, but we waited, we had hope, they betrayed us in the end. Cuz they choose wrong way. But not to choose at all is a choice too. So instead of hating everything like a kid be in touch with the community and give yr REASONABLE feedback.

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Sinrek
Posts: 788

Re: Some Class Tweaks

Post by Sinrek » Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:37 pm

Kevin Jordan in one of his interviews stated they wanted shamans to be a soft version of a tank or an off-tank at best but not an optimal raid-tank.
satisfied_turtle Slowly turtling my way up.

Crazyhelix
Posts: 10

Re: Some Class Tweaks

Post by Crazyhelix » Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:02 am

Sinrek wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:37 pm
Kevin Jordan in one of his interviews stated they wanted shamans to be a soft version of a tank or an off-tank at best but not an optimal raid-tank.
"Soft" tank or Off tank - it's really best version in this case. It would be so cool.
But there is some another little fixes that really easy 2 implement and in the same time it prooved that it's legal!
I mean again Pala's in general. Just 2 minor fixes will change the pala's life:
1. Concesration must being general spell not Holy talent
2. Bless duration goes up to 10 mins (30 mins for Greaters)
Both this fixes was made in BC by Blizz. They would do this earlier but they choose another model of game develolopment. So we have to confess that most changes in BC - just work on mistakes of vanilla in first of all.
What hinders Turtle dev team to make changes that Blizz did in next addons but in vanilla? This would be real Vanilla+ and i 100% believe that People will meet this changes with great joy.

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