Turtle WoW Database

[FracturedBrain]

So while the game is down I like to research and plan things as I am fairly certain a lot of other folks do as well. For my data I head to the TWoW database. Lately I have been increasingly frustrated by it's inaccuracies (blue items being green, stats being wrong, effects being changed, Etc.). I am not sure what the cause of this is but my guess is it is likely a lot of work to keep the database updated or it is to preserve the sense of discovery for those that enjoy that aspect of gameplay as I believe those would be the two most logical answers.

I would like to propose a few solutions I believe in order from simplest and least amount of work and disruption to hardest and most complex with the greatest potential for causing other issues to arise. Please note that I am not a programmer so the amount of work required is at best a guess on my part.

1. A simple disclaimer on the page stating something along the lines of "All data and entries found on the database may be partially or wholly inaccurate due to a variety of reasons and this site should be used with that information in mind."

2. Update the database to accurately reflect current in game items as they are changed and updated with each patch.

3. Delete the database entirely as well as removing the /db show feature from in game.

Obviously some of these would be harder than others and more or less wildly unpopular, I am not saying any of these are the correct or best solution but I thought if I was going to point out what I perceived as a potential issue the least I could do was try and offer a solution instead of just complaining.

On an unrelated note I wanted to thank Torta, Cherry Pie and Haaxor1689. In all of my interactions with them on discord they have been nothing but kind and polite. Please note they have not once agreed to or implemented any of my suggestions but their rejections have always been professional and prompt and I feel heard which I think is wonderful.

Also I want to thank the in game game masters, same thing they have been nothing but polite and professional even when explaining that it was user error on my part and they do not fix those things. Even when they are telling me no it is still a pleasant experience.

[Akalix]

The database will be updated after guilds have cleared Tower of Karazhan.

[FracturedBrain]

Thank you so much for the prompt reply, yet another example of the quality that is a trademark of the staff at Turtle WoW. Also personally that is by far my favorite of the available options so I am very happy to hear that is the case. Have a wonderful day.

[FracturedBrain]

Now that the Tower is officially cleared, is there an ETA on the DB update? Guessing not before next reset?

[Norovirus]

I just want a comment section on the database like OG wowhead

[Drubarrymooer]

I just want a comment section on the database like OG wowhead

Please no. Wowhead was filled with opinions as well as often wrong and/or outdated information in the comments.

[Norovirus]

I just want a comment section on the database like OG wowhead

Please no. Wowhead was filled with opinions as well as often wrong and/or outdated information in the comments.

So are these forums, the discord, world chat, youtube, twitch, and the list goes on.

Community driven discussion and discovery is a huge part of this server's design philosophy, so why not extend that space to the item database? The worst thing that happens is you just ignore that tab/section of the database if you don't like it.

[Drubarrymooer]

I just want a comment section on the database like OG wowhead

Please no. Wowhead was filled with opinions as well as often wrong and/or outdated information in the comments.

So are these forums, the discord, world chat, youtube, twitch, and the list goes on.

Community driven discussion and discovery is a huge part of this server's design philosophy, so why not extend that space to the item database? The worst thing that happens is you just ignore that tab/section of the database if you don't like it.

User generated information shouldn't be able to be used as a source. It, like YouTube, twitch, discord, world chat, these forums, etc is rife with errors, inconsistencies, and misinformation. This is why Wikipedia isn't accepted as a source in academia.

It's totally fine to discuss matters of opinion on any of the platforms you mentioned. It is not where one goes to learn correct/factual information.

[Wolf of Rage]

I just want a comment section on the database like OG wowhead

Please no. Wowhead was filled with opinions as well as often wrong and/or outdated information in the comments.

So are these forums, the discord, world chat, youtube, twitch, and the list goes on.

Community driven discussion and discovery is a huge part of this server's design philosophy, so why not extend that space to the item database? The worst thing that happens is you just ignore that tab/section of the database if you don't like it.

Agreed.

I personally dislike everything being flung onto Discord or... ugh... Twitter... Why...?

Plus, for a server that runs a continued iteration of an ancient game, there are... some things that are missing when logically they shouldn't, or just not nostalgic at all (looking at you, WotLK-/Cata-esque features, Class changes and Talents). It seems discrepant to me.

[Norovirus]

Please no. Wowhead was filled with opinions as well as often wrong and/or outdated information in the comments.

So are these forums, the discord, world chat, youtube, twitch, and the list goes on.

Community driven discussion and discovery is a huge part of this server's design philosophy, so why not extend that space to the item database? The worst thing that happens is you just ignore that tab/section of the database if you don't like it.

User generated information shouldn't be able to be used as a source. It, like YouTube, twitch, discord, world chat, these forums, etc is rife with errors, inconsistencies, and misinformation. This is why Wikipedia isn't accepted as a source in academia.

It's totally fine to discuss matters of opinion on any of the platforms you mentioned. It is not where one goes to learn correct/factual information.

Wikipedia isn't accepted as a source in academia because when reading an article in a credible peer reviewed journal you expect that the sources they are citing to justify their claims are also from credible peer-reviewed journals. That same expectation does not apply to reading the comments section of wowhead (or in this case the would-be comment section of the turtle database). No one would be confusing actual database data with what "BubbleHearth369" said about their favorite boss drop.

The problem right now is there is not a good organized platform for discussing new turtle wow quests and items, at least not to the extent we had with wowhead comments. The best we have is discord or forums which are not the most convenient platforms for organizing and searching information and discussion over specific items and quests. They are better for broader questions or live conversations about general game topics, but the database organization would be superior for specific mob/item/quest information sharing. To illustrate my point, go search for content on the discord about the new boars added to turtle wow for the boar challenge. You search "boar" and you have to sift through hundreds of chats about hunter pets and copy pasta that people post when the server is down that happens to have the word boar in it. If you know the specific mob name you might be able to narrow it down and find some useful information, but half of it doesn't get pinged on the search because it was mispelled by the commenter, or references something without the proper name.

If someone wants to make a separate turtle-wow wowhead and add in all the t-wow custom content that'd be great. But the database is an already available platform that has all of the items, mobs, and quests in the game, so the infrastructure for providing information related to a specific game entity, and then others being able to search it up later, is already there, it just requires adding a comment section. If that existed I would be able to search "boar", quickly locate the boars in my level range of interest, then go to the comments to see what people say about their spawn locations, spawn timers, recommended levels for when to transition to grinding there, and any mobs in the area for hardcore characters to watch out for. I would understand it's user-generated info and not necessarily accurate but that doesn't mean it can't be useful. And I'm not saying all of this would exist on every entry, but these were the kinds of things we used to put on wowhead. I was a big fan of reading peoples' comments, and "purists" like yourself can just ignore that tab and stick to the actual database info, no harm done.

[Drubarrymooer]

Wikipedia isn't accepted as a source in academia because when reading an article in a credible peer reviewed journal you expect that the sources they are citing to justify their claims are also from credible peer-reviewed journals. That same expectation does not apply to reading the comments section of wowhead (or in this case the would-be comment section of the turtle database). No one would be confusing actual database data with what "BubbleHearth369" said about their favorite boss drop.

You essentially repeated what I said with more words then just reiterated your original point at this end. As for what bubbahearth is going on about, that is exactly the type of post you'd find on wowhead. It could be seen as correct information by some users, especially if the DB is out of date.

The problem right now is there is not a good organized platform for discussing new turtle wow quests and items, at least not to the extent we had with wowhead comments.

How would "this is bis for my warrior until TBC" be useful to anyone? Even if you consider the 100% accurate/data driven posts, they are only accurate for a limited time. Even blizzard updates and changes items making those comments that actually contained useful information (the minority of comments on wowhead) completely invalid. Turtle WoW tweaks stuff 5x faster than blizz does meaning you'll have an even more inaccurate DB. The point of a database is to house accurate information. Not outdated information and not user opinions on how good or not good an item is. There is no beneficial reason to put comments into the DB that are opinions and limited information in terms of time, scope, and accuracy. That's all wowhead comments are. And yes that can confuse some users.

If someone wants to make a separate turtle-wow wowhead and add in all the t-wow custom content that'd be great. But the database is an already available platform that has all of the items, mobs, and quests in the game, so the infrastructure for providing information related to a specific game entity, and then others being able to search it up later, is already there, it just requires adding a comment section. If that existed I would be able to search "boar", quickly locate the boars in my level range of interest, then go to the comments to see what people say about their spawn locations, spawn timers, recommended levels for when to transition to grinding there, and any mobs in the area for hardcore characters to watch out for. I would understand it's user-generated info and not necessarily accurate but that doesn't mean it can't be useful. And I'm not saying all of this would exist on every entry, but these were the kinds of things we used to put on wowhead. I was a big fan of reading peoples' comments, and "purists" like yourself can just ignore that tab and stick to the actual database info, no harm done.

There's no reason for this. You double someone's workload for no real benefit or gain. If you want to discuss granular item changes there's the #theorycrafting channel in the twow discord and there's a section on the forums. No need to add a separate or even modified DB where people can just leave random comments that will eventually be outdated, if they were ever useful to begin with.

[Dracarusggotham]

The database will be updated after guilds have cleared Tower of Karazhan.

You're going to update it properly? With the new zones and all, cause it's a bit strange see the NPC of Thalassian Highlands be marked in Easter Plaguelands.

[Zulnam]

The database will be updated after guilds have cleared Tower of Karazhan.

You're going to update it properly? With the new zones and all, cause it's a bit strange see the NPC of Thalassian Highlands be marked in Easter Plaguelands.

new zones, new dungeons, new quests...

[Norovirus]

Wikipedia isn't accepted as a source in academia because when reading an article in a credible peer reviewed journal you expect that the sources they are citing to justify their claims are also from credible peer-reviewed journals. That same expectation does not apply to reading the comments section of wowhead (or in this case the would-be comment section of the turtle database). No one would be confusing actual database data with what "BubbleHearth369" said about their favorite boss drop.

You essentially repeated what I said with more words then just reiterated your original point at this end. As for what bubbahearth is going on about, that is exactly the type of post you'd find on wowhead. It could be seen as correct information by some users, especially if the DB is out of date.

I'm starting to get the feeling that you're just being contrarian at this point for the sake of being contrarian. The idea that someone would go onto the comments section of the database and confuse clearly labeled player comments as factual database info is laughable, and saying we shouldn't have comments because of this possibility is akin to saying there shouldn't be a world chat because players might confuse it for actual in game messages from GMs.

The problem right now is there is not a good organized platform for discussing new turtle wow quests and items, at least not to the extent we had with wowhead comments.

How would "this is bis for my warrior until TBC" be useful to anyone? Even if you consider the 100% accurate/data driven posts, they are only accurate for a limited time. Even blizzard updates and changes items making those comments that actually contained useful information (the minority of comments on wowhead) completely invalid. Turtle WoW tweaks stuff 5x faster than blizz does meaning you'll have an even more inaccurate DB. The point of a database is to house accurate information. Not outdated information and not user opinions on how good or not good an item is. There is no beneficial reason to put comments into the DB that are opinions and limited information in terms of time, scope, and accuracy. That's all wowhead comments are. And yes that can confuse some users.

The issue of player comments becoming outdated applies to any platform and, if anything, is further evidence in support of implementing database comments, as comments could be tagged with the current patch at time of posting like wowhead is, allowing for players to more easily differentiate what is still relevant compared to searching old comments in discord.

If someone wants to make a separate turtle-wow wowhead and add in all the t-wow custom content that'd be great. But the database is an already available platform that has all of the items, mobs, and quests in the game, so the infrastructure for providing information related to a specific game entity, and then others being able to search it up later, is already there, it just requires adding a comment section. If that existed I would be able to search "boar", quickly locate the boars in my level range of interest, then go to the comments to see what people say about their spawn locations, spawn timers, recommended levels for when to transition to grinding there, and any mobs in the area for hardcore characters to watch out for. I would understand it's user-generated info and not necessarily accurate but that doesn't mean it can't be useful. And I'm not saying all of this would exist on every entry, but these were the kinds of things we used to put on wowhead. I was a big fan of reading peoples' comments, and "purists" like yourself can just ignore that tab and stick to the actual database info, no harm done.

There's no reason for this. You double someone's workload for no real benefit or gain. If you want to discuss granular item changes there's the #theorycrafting channel in the twow discord and there's a section on the forums. No need to add a separate or even modified DB where people can just leave random comments that will eventually be outdated, if they were ever useful to begin with.

I gave a clear example as to a situation in which a database structured space for community info sharing would be superior to discord and forums, and you counter by saying there's already a space for this in the discord/forums... I use the discord and forums for exactly these things and have spent hours sifting through old discussions and posts to try to understand what exactly they are talking about and get the useful info out. Lots of it was very useful and has helped me in game, it's just not an efficient organizational structure when it comes looking things up.

The only legitimate reasons I can think of to not implement comments in the database are 1.)concern of splitting community discussion into too many platforms (very fair reason), and 2.) the last thing you mentioned, which is the additional workload for devs just might not be worth the payoff. This is also a fair argument and I don't know enough about coding and database hosting to know how much work it would be to add a comment section. It seems silly to me to think that it would be "double the workload" of maintaining the database itself, but I'm no expert. This suggestions forum is about sharing what we would like to see done. The devs are the ones responsible for deciding how much effort a change would require to implement and ultimately make the decision on whether it's worth it. Anything we as community members try to do to evaluate that aspect is conjecture since we're not involved in the work.

[Drubarrymooer]

Wikipedia isn't accepted as a source in academia because when reading an article in a credible peer reviewed journal you expect that the sources they are citing to justify their claims are also from credible peer-reviewed journals. That same expectation does not apply to reading the comments section of wowhead (or in this case the would-be comment section of the turtle database). No one would be confusing actual database data with what "BubbleHearth369" said about their favorite boss drop.

You essentially repeated what I said with more words then just reiterated your original point at this end. As for what bubbahearth is going on about, that is exactly the type of post you'd find on wowhead. It could be seen as correct information by some users, especially if the DB is out of date.

I'm starting to get the feeling that you're just being contrarian at this point for the sake of being contrarian. The idea that someone would go onto the comments section of the database and confuse clearly labeled player comments as factual database info is laughable, and saying we shouldn't have comments because of this possibility is akin to saying there shouldn't be a world chat because players might confuse it for actual in game messages from GMs.

The problem right now is there is not a good organized platform for discussing new turtle wow quests and items, at least not to the extent we had with wowhead comments.

How would "this is bis for my warrior until TBC" be useful to anyone? Even if you consider the 100% accurate/data driven posts, they are only accurate for a limited time. Even blizzard updates and changes items making those comments that actually contained useful information (the minority of comments on wowhead) completely invalid. Turtle WoW tweaks stuff 5x faster than blizz does meaning you'll have an even more inaccurate DB. The point of a database is to house accurate information. Not outdated information and not user opinions on how good or not good an item is. There is no beneficial reason to put comments into the DB that are opinions and limited information in terms of time, scope, and accuracy. That's all wowhead comments are. And yes that can confuse some users.

The issue of player comments becoming outdated applies to any platform and, if anything, is further evidence in support of implementing database comments, as comments could be tagged with the current patch at time of posting like wowhead is, allowing for players to more easily differentiate what is still relevant compared to searching old comments in discord.

If someone wants to make a separate turtle-wow wowhead and add in all the t-wow custom content that'd be great. But the database is an already available platform that has all of the items, mobs, and quests in the game, so the infrastructure for providing information related to a specific game entity, and then others being able to search it up later, is already there, it just requires adding a comment section. If that existed I would be able to search "boar", quickly locate the boars in my level range of interest, then go to the comments to see what people say about their spawn locations, spawn timers, recommended levels for when to transition to grinding there, and any mobs in the area for hardcore characters to watch out for. I would understand it's user-generated info and not necessarily accurate but that doesn't mean it can't be useful. And I'm not saying all of this would exist on every entry, but these were the kinds of things we used to put on wowhead. I was a big fan of reading peoples' comments, and "purists" like yourself can just ignore that tab and stick to the actual database info, no harm done.

There's no reason for this. You double someone's workload for no real benefit or gain. If you want to discuss granular item changes there's the #theorycrafting channel in the twow discord and there's a section on the forums. No need to add a separate or even modified DB where people can just leave random comments that will eventually be outdated, if they were ever useful to begin with.

I gave a clear example as to a situation in which a database structured space for community info sharing would be superior to discord and forums, and you counter by saying there's already a space for this in the discord/forums... I use the discord and forums for exactly these things and have spent hours sifting through old discussions and posts to try to understand what exactly they are talking about and get the useful info out. Lots of it was very useful and has helped me in game, it's just not an efficient organizational structure when it comes looking things up.

The only legitimate reasons I can think of to not implement comments in the database are 1.)concern of splitting community discussion into too many platforms (very fair reason), and 2.) the last thing you mentioned, which is the additional workload for devs just might not be worth the payoff. This is also a fair argument and I don't know enough about coding and database hosting to know how much work it would be to add a comment section. It seems silly to me to think that it would be "double the workload" of maintaining the database itself, but I'm no expert. This suggestions forum is about sharing what we would like to see done. The devs are the ones responsible for deciding how much effort a change would require to implement and ultimately make the decision on whether it's worth it. Anything we as community members try to do to evaluate that aspect is conjecture since we're not involved in the work.

I unfortunately don't have the time or will to break all that down atm. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. I just know that I have had to fact check information there for guildies before and point them to more accurate or updated sources. Sometimes this was in the comments, and sometimes I was correcting comments. I've found that it's more misleading and inaccurate than accurate. I'm aware that's anecdotal, but after discussing with you the other day, I hopped on over to check out just a few random items. A large portion of comments were either references to obtaining an item in the past, hopes to attain an item in the future, or "this is bis for me". The amount of "discussion" taking place seemed few and far between. It seemed to be mostly singular, standalone comments. Again, it was a very small sample size...like 4 items I looked at. Bottom line is it seems pretty pointless and more likely to do harm than good. Just to reiterate, and I'm not trying to be contrarian...I'm just speaking from my own experience having to correct guildies in the past, incorrect or out of date information isn't good to be on a DB which is meant to be maintained for accuracy and not as a legacy project or resource. If you disagree mate that's totally fine. Hopefully I didn't come across wrong.

[Norovirus]

I unfortunately don't have the time or will to break all that down atm. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. I just know that I have had to fact check information there for guildies before and point them to more accurate or updated sources. Sometimes this was in the comments, and sometimes I was correcting comments. I've found that it's more misleading and inaccurate than accurate. I'm aware that's anecdotal, but after discussing with you the other day, I hopped on over to check out just a few random items. A large portion of comments were either references to obtaining an item in the past, hopes to attain an item in the future, or "this is bis for me". The amount of "discussion" taking place seemed few and far between. It seemed to be mostly singular, standalone comments. Again, it was a very small sample size...like 4 items I looked at. Bottom line is it seems pretty pointless and more likely to do harm than good. Just to reiterate, and I'm not trying to be contrarian...I'm just speaking from my own experience having to correct guildies in the past, incorrect or out of date information isn't good to be on a DB which is meant to be maintained for accuracy and not as a legacy project or resource. If you disagree mate that's totally fine. Hopefully I didn't come across wrong.

That's fair and I was wrong to accuse you of being arbitrarily contrarian. I am an academic in my career and big into theorycrafting niche game topics in my free time so it comes very natural to me to weigh the source and quality of evidence in my decision making. I am very biased in this way into thinking most others think the same way as I do, when that is not necessarily the case. You see old, unreliable information as a source of spreading useless or even harmful misinformation, and I see it is an opportunity to uncover something potentially useful that I didn't know to then test if it still holds up in game. Both are true and it's a matter of opinion and priorities how we want to weigh their importance.