pal request taunt

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Hardwelsam
Posts: 27
Location: Hungary, Szeged

pal request taunt

Post by Hardwelsam » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:05 pm

mentioning adding soon a taunt for paladin?
Last edited by Hardwelsam on Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Mephistopheles
Posts: 103

Re: ret pal request taunt

Post by Mephistopheles » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:04 am

No.
This question was asked a million times and we have a million posts about it, still no clear intention.
"The sky burns red with blood of the fallen."

Kratos

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Merikkinon
Posts: 119

Re: ret pal request taunt

Post by Merikkinon » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:32 pm

Just seems the 'want' to 'modify' (ie., corrupt) vanilla Paladin is strong for players. Many players want to 'play' Vanilla, but with TBC and onward class ideologies..

But that is not this server. It is still a Vanilla server.

I am sorry - but it might be best if that is the real hot thing for someone to just go to a server where TBC and onwards classes are in play.

Why pollute the Vanilla experience by trying to push in a later version of the classes into Turtle?!?

Honestly, this stuff is being suggested simply for the purpose of the players who are attached to the particular class in question.

It isn't for the better of the community or server.

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Hardwelsam
Posts: 27
Location: Hungary, Szeged

Re: ret pal request taunt

Post by Hardwelsam » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:05 pm

Mephistopheles wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:04 am
No.
This question was asked a million times and we have a million posts about it, still no clear intention.


Probably,there are million about that,than this is the million and One more.
Sorry about that then.
My missunderstood.

I played much wotlk exp :D

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Merikkinon
Posts: 119

Re: ret pal request taunt

Post by Merikkinon » Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:41 am

Hello Hardwelsam,

Check out this good guide from Icy Veins on the various Vanilla classes, and you can see how their performance is so different than in WotLK. I think it might help with expectation and understanding a bit. Because it is often very different.

https://www.icy-veins.com/wow-classic/class-guides

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Velite
Posts: 24

Re: ret pal request taunt

Post by Velite » Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:20 pm

You only need taunt as a paladin if you actually want to commit to tanking full time in raids, it's not necessary to have one before raiding. It was intended for paladins to have some form of a taunt during vanilla but it was delayed until tbc, since they had a tanking spec and tanks need to taunt in vanilla (i stress again that you can't beat vanilla without using taunt so you have to rely on druids/warriors). This is why it was available at level 16 and not level 61+. I don't consider it a corruption of the core class as even with a taunt, much of the obstacles still remain for the player to overcome and most raids won't really consider a paladin to the level of druid or warrior tank. Paladin can be considered almost a hard-mode tank that has to deal with many problems while tanking, which is surprising for such a "basic class", ranging from many different types of encounter design. But taunt is always that problem that can't really be solved by consumables or strategy or gear, there are just encounters that were hard designed to use it in order to progress. And what happens when you have a protection paladin, is he has to be substituted for a dps warrior, which is kind of sad. It kind of forces any serious tank paladin to either invest also in healing or dps not because those roles are better in certain situations (a 1 tank fight is okay, having warrior tank and paladin heal/dps is fine and that's not the complaint) but because you straight up can't play the fight as a tank at all, in a fight that requires multiple tanks, and so you need to play as that, because of no taunt (razuvious, ebonroc, it makes 4 horsemen a bit more complicated and not every group is willing to let a paladin tank it).
In comparison, feral druids and protection warriors, the other tank classes, do not have to invest in dps/healing at all, they are always going to be expected to tank due to having a taunt.

And in comparison to Retribution and Holy, they never have to change their role ever. They can run all of vanilla just playing dps or healer.

I'm pretty sure if blizzard actually thought out protection paladins in vanilla (they didn't ofc) they would think it's bad design that you need to substitute someone in their tank spec for another class in their dps spec to do a tanking role.

Considering there isn't much in the way of prot tank gear progression and 50% of your threat relies on getting thunderfury, a paladin taunt is essentially cosmetic since it would have little to no effect on the current meta. The people who play tank paladin did all of vanilla without one, it's more that you have these awkward moments where you need a dps warrior to do your job sometimes because they can taunt, but those protection paladin raid slots aren't going to change, they won't really increase or decrease. Or I guess you can call it a quality of life, but not having a taunt isn't going to stop people from wanting to play a tank spec, but it does create this "meme spec" perception that druids don't have, the other healer-tank capable class that's fully accepted in both roles. What you can also call an unfinished class perception which is actually true.

Warriors have the best tank gear and defensive cooldowns, bear druids have the flexibility of a dps and tank role in 1 tree and strong threat, and paladins have strong aoe tanking, these are the advantages each type of tank brings to a raid, but since aoe tanking is not always needed, and there is a certain standard of tanks being able to taunt in certain fights, most groups won't bother with a protection paladin since they're dead weight outside of where they can play. And for the people who actually manage to make it work, they can get good results but there is always that awkward situation where you are just useless as an offtank for a fight. Maybe there wasn't really such a pressing need to develop a taunt during 2006 that Blizzard delayed it to the next expansion, but given cross faction, tank paladins are more useful and accepted here in general (also may be due to small pop), who doesn't want more tanks playing? It's an in-demand role. Now in 2021 paladins are tanking raid content and not having a taunt is just a needless handicap for a tank spec.

The best comparison is if we had a 5th class that could heal, but they have no dispelling spells. They'd just be useless for certain fights because healers are expected to dispel whatever status effects they are capable of. It would be a healer meme spec. It's such a core part of the role that every healer can dispel at least 2/4 debuff types.

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Velite
Posts: 24

Re: ret pal request taunt

Post by Velite » Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:37 pm

And if you don't believe me when I say that a paladin taunt should have been in vanilla:


https://youtu.be/Rd-Zt8bueFk?t=5167


"we didn't have the total specific idea on how he[paladin] was going to taunt and we were still experimenting"

It isn't really something that was only considered for TBC.

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Lexi
Posts: 54

Re: ret pal request taunt

Post by Lexi » Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:54 am

I'd be alright with pally receiving a new ability, but not until every other classs receives one or more abilities usable in combat. Thing is I'm not convinced a pally taunt would be the right choice for the next pally ability. I admit I'm not sure what type of ability would be best, but in my opinion it would be one that doesn't push pallys to playing more similarly to other tanks. I'm of the opinion the more homogeneity among classes when they fill the same role the more it takes away from class feel and class identity, there are exceptions but not many. Some questions for the pallys out there.
1. Should bears have major defensive cooldowns like warrior and pally have?
2. Should warriors and bears be able to always start with full rage as consistently as a pally can mana?
3. Should a bear be able to parry?
4. Should a bear be able to have weapon skill to their 'feral paws' and decrease hit 'needed' for maul to 6% hit?
5. Should a bear be able to drink rage potions like a warrior does, refilling their rage and giving a nice AP boost?
6. Should bears and warriors have access to each of their abilities at all times without stance or form changing, like a pally?

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Velite
Posts: 24

Re: ret pal request taunt

Post by Velite » Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:35 am

Mana on a tank is a blessing and a curse. Pallies can't tank mana burn fights, so there's your lack of tank homogeny right there. Worse yet, those are innervates that need to go to tanks instead of healers.

How would a paladin be able to offtank ebonroc and razuvious without a taunt? I mean essentially any way you pitch it, the solution falls under a taunt, because again, the way that those fights are handled is super cut and dry: You. Need. A. Taunt.

On razuvious, your priests will mind control 4 mobs. These mobs tank the boss. After some time, the mobs will break mind control and run for the priest, who will have the remaining health set as their threat value (they have 80k hp so you are looking at 80k threat). For a paladin to be able to grab the mob without a taunt they need to do 90k+ threat in the 2 seconds it takes for the mob to reach the priest. That is not feasible. You need a taunt. Paladin has to heal that fight because of not having a taunt.

It's bad design if you think it's ok that a tank spec should just heal. It would be like, a multi tank fight where a bear druid would be forced to heal. No fight like that exists in the game, thankfully.


And IMO, new abilities should be made to either address existing issues. Unlike Bears and Warriors, paladins can't tank every fight in the game, and for a tank spec that is clearly an issue. Anything less than that is essentially a meme. UNLESS you consider protection paladin a "support tank" spec that isn't supposed to tank all the time, but that's just worse than a dps warrior.

One advantage druids have though is not being liable to disarm baseline, though, like protection paladin aoe tanking, is so niche that it hardly matters.

Honestly, If there was any type of ability that would make a protection paladin as good as a bear druid, I'm all ears, but I am hard convinced that this ability needed is a taunt-like spell.

I don't mean no offense but the majority of people here talking have not played a protection paladin seriously in vanilla raiding and don't really understand the pitfalls or utility of the spec, and don't understand how important a taunt is. It's a good spec in the hands of the right player but it is still a liability, even when you literally have the best gear in the game, all the consumes, you know the fights, and you are still a raid handicap at times. I have played the spec enough to know what it's lacking and what it actually needs that the player themselves can't improve on, and that's a taunt. Only that. Every other issue can be solved with time, money, or better healers, except mana burn and taunt fights (I guess an innervate rotation and aggressive wisdom flasks could work but that's incredibly unrealistic and impractical).

I could ask for avenger's shield, avenging wrath, spiritual attunement, a non-crap version of blessing of sanctuary, none of that stuff is necessary at all for vanilla and would just make the spec more powerful in areas it is already capable in. But a taunt is.

I'm so grateful that this is a custom server that is bringing in all the cut and scrapped content to pre-tbc azeroth like caverns of time, karazhan, etc. A paladin taunt spell is among one of these things as confirmed by Kevin Jordan and it would be nice if paladin could finally have it in vanilla. They wanted paladins to have a taunt in vanilla but they couldn't finish the unique implementation for the same reasons you stated, that it should be unique. It would be nice if it could be finished here.

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Velite
Posts: 24

Re: ret pal request taunt

Post by Velite » Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:04 am

Lexi wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:54 am
I'd be alright with pally receiving a new ability, but not until every other classs receives one or more abilities usable in combat. Thing is I'm not convinced a pally taunt would be the right choice for the next pally ability. I admit I'm not sure what type of ability would be best, but in my opinion it would be one that doesn't push pallys to playing more similarly to other tanks. I'm of the opinion the more homogeneity among classes when they fill the same role the more it takes away from class feel and class identity, there are exceptions but not many. Some questions for the pallys out there.
1. Should bears have major defensive cooldowns like warrior and pally have?
2. Should warriors and bears be able to always start with full rage as consistently as a pally can mana?
3. Should a bear be able to parry?
4. Should a bear be able to have weapon skill to their 'feral paws' and decrease hit 'needed' for maul to 6% hit?
5. Should a bear be able to drink rage potions like a warrior does, refilling their rage and giving a nice AP boost?
6. Should bears and warriors have access to each of their abilities at all times without stance or form changing, like a pally?
The only issue I have is that, vanilla encounter design for tanks is very cut and dry: it was designed for warrior tanks and is typically done with warrior tanks. This is unfortunately why it has to be a bit homogenized, and druid is very much just a stripped warrior in terms of toolkit. Taunt is a taunt either way, and that's what some fights take.

Druids have 2 defensive cooldowns but they are pretty ass. Ngl they could have been buffed, they are very much afterthoughts.

The offset of paladin mana too, you can do like 20-30 seconds before you oom, you need serious mana regen that thankfully this server provides via windfury. On classic they got innervate rotations.

And frankly yeah, although it is thematic it's ultimately a pretty significant disadvantage on how bears have to handle potions, and not being able to use rage pots as the 2nd class that can use rage as a resource.

Realistically a paladin taunt update is probably gonna come with 5x the amount of druid/shaman improvements to address all the complaints, so I wouldn't be so worried.

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Hardwelsam
Posts: 27
Location: Hungary, Szeged

Re: ret pal request taunt

Post by Hardwelsam » Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:58 am

I see. Interesting to see, retri is "nerfed",and pally tank is completely useless.
No matter how many Good defense talent have in prot talent tree,there is also 2 Basic problem with It.
The First,is what u also talked about,the mana costs in pala tank.
Many of the spells require high amount of mana,which is becoming a problem,when pally got mana burn.

The other problem,is the threat.
Most of dps classes can obviously do more threat than a pally.
As i tested it,no matter if pally give +3 on the improved threat,still nothing,like the other classes,who's not just One target rotation did.
(pally whit cons.have 1 aoe).

So we can said,in vanilla pally is the best on healing.
But before someone start talking for me about the "what about sham,dudu aoe heal",i wanna quick say,pally healer the better choice.
I know,retri also can be come a Good dps,but It require a Goo weapon,and more Good gear.

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Hardwelsam
Posts: 27
Location: Hungary, Szeged

Re: ret pal request taunt

Post by Hardwelsam » Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:02 am

And about warrior,is warrior have spell reflection here?
Since i not really played ever before war in vanilla,just now,let me know is he have.
Sp refl.is the 3nd matter abilitie for the tank class

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Jimmicz
Posts: 57

Re: ret pal request taunt

Post by Jimmicz » Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:11 am

Hardwelsam wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:02 am
And about warrior,is warrior have spell reflection here?
Since i not really played ever before war in vanilla,just now,let me know is he have.
Sp refl.is the 3nd matter abilitie for the tank class
no you need to use trinkets from engineering

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