Crusader Strike

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Velite
Posts: 24

Re: Crusader Strike

Post by Velite » Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:14 am

Not having a taunt is great until you need one because that is how a fight was mechanically designed in vanilla.

If you don't want to use a taunt you can choose not to use it. You can just play a warrior and never bind the spell if you want a tank without a taunt. But not having the choice for it when fights like Ebonroc and Razuvious were designed to have tanks taunt just means that you can't play those fights as a paladin tank in vanilla.

I would like to propose on this forum, however, that Holy strike be given the property of crusader strike in TBC: that it refreshes all active judgements on a target. That would add alot of utility to the ret class and it would fix the issue that holy strike does not refresh your current judgement, meaning that if you do your rotation you might end up having your judgement fall off before being able to reapply it. Holy strike uses your auto attack but doesn't refresh your judgement.

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Ravielsk
Posts: 22

Re: Crusader Strike

Post by Ravielsk » Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:05 am

Steyr wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 9:34 am
I think you are talking about officially advertised developer "philosophy" for vanilla wow. In reality, though, things work a little differently. For example, fear mechanic can replace tank in some cases, and we all know how frost mages solo farm ZG trash.
It is worth mentioning, too, that developer stance on the game has been changing with patch versions - there is a reason they redesigned deathbone set as well as paladin t2 in later vanilla patches.
I get the impression that his is a problem in general when it comes to Vanilla. Too many people cite this "developer philosophy" but fail to realize that those very same developers later admitted that philosophy to be wrong. There is a reason why the paladin was reworked after Vanilla and it was not because the class was so well done. Many of the class balance decisions and specs in Vanilla are effectively just placeholders that were not replaced with their proper counterparts until TBC.

Besides the "tax" hybrid classes in Vanilla pay is everything but fair. Its not that paladins are somewhat worse tanks or DPS than warrior, its that outside of early content they are not consistently usable as tanks and asking entire raids and groups to finagle themselves around a paladin tank is the definition of bad design. Especially since depending on the group configuration and/or raid/dungeon that might not even be an option.
Velite wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:14 am
I would like to propose on this forum, however, that Holy strike be given the property of crusader strike in TBC: that it refreshes all active judgements on a target. That would add alot of utility to the ret class and it would fix the issue that holy strike does not refresh your current judgement, meaning that if you do your rotation you might end up having your judgement fall off before being able to reapply it. Holy strike uses your auto attack but doesn't refresh your judgement.
That actually sounds like a very solid idea.

Steyr
Posts: 50

Re: Crusader Strike

Post by Steyr » Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:31 am

Velite wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:14 am

If you don't want to use a taunt you can choose not to use it. You can just play a warrior and never bind the spell if you want a tank without a taunt.
That's like saying "If you don't like all the trashtalk in world chat, you can leave it". The next thing that will happen, it will be people getting on you for not using it.

As far as I know, there are ways of dealing with any fight mechanic other than just straight threat wipe (which happens surprisingly a lot on this server for reasons I don't know), other than using taunt. The question is whether the raid group is patient and qualified enough for any approaches that aren't listed in guides.

The main issue is slow threat generation for paladins, whereas almost every warrior skill "deals additional threat" on top of defensive stance multiplier. While tweaking holy strike sounds nice, making paladin spellpower scale with strength (like it did in TBC) would actually be more beneficial and it would synergize better with whatever gear paladins get. But that is probably too much to ask on a vanilla server.

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Lawmonark
Posts: 13

Re: Crusader Strike

Post by Lawmonark » Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:12 pm

Unangwata wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 3:51 pm
Yeah I like paladin not having taunt as well. It's their charm. Give it taunt and it will not be paladin tanking anymore.
Same thing with war, they have taunt but don't have aoe.
Except Warrior AoE tanking is possible. Check out the video by Skarm. While its not ideal, it is possible.
Paladins really do need a taunt.

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Velite
Posts: 24

Re: Crusader Strike

Post by Velite » Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:07 pm

Yeah the thing with warriors is any issue they have can be addressed. That is not the case for druids and paladins, they have permanent issues that the group has to work around. I would prefer if obstacles were had that could be overcome by the individual which is the case for warriors.

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Velite
Posts: 24

Re: Crusader Strike

Post by Velite » Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:10 pm

Steyr wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:31 am

As far as I know, there are ways of dealing with any fight mechanic other than just straight threat wipe (which happens surprisingly a lot on this server for reasons I don't know), other than using taunt. The question is whether the raid group is patient and qualified enough for any approaches that aren't listed in guides.
Yeah for Ebonroc the only way a paladin will be able to do that, is if they are able to get everyone to wipe their threat in order to get the boss to shift aggro. That will never happen, you'd need so many petrification flasks. And so, people would rather a warrior or druid press taunt. If you have to go to such extremes to be able to do a TANK job as a TANK spec, that's a problem. And that's why blizzard gave paladins a taunt when they fixed the spec in TBC. The spec is currently still broken.

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Hardwelsam
Posts: 27
Location: Hungary, Szeged

Re: Crusader Strike

Post by Hardwelsam » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:28 pm

Crusader strike and holly strike for paladin in vanilla..
Forgot about that.
Pala with holly strike is already enoughly strong.
Adding the crusader strike make a big unbalance.
And yes,possible to make this,adding crus.strike tho,but after that Every other classes also needed a New abilitie/spell,and its require so much work.
Just imagine that,holly strike and crusader strike being accepted and released,Everybody going to make paladin..

And lets Talk about an another thing.
A taunt are seriously more wanted for prot pally.

Or an aoe.
I can imagine a custom aoe.

Steyr
Posts: 50

Re: Crusader Strike

Post by Steyr » Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:34 pm

Perhaps if paladin threat generation from holy damage would be boosted (by boosting righteous fury or somesuch) you could beat initial threat from dps when all threat is wiped (unless it's tank-exclusive)

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Hardwelsam
Posts: 27
Location: Hungary, Szeged

Re: Crusader Strike

Post by Hardwelsam » Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:27 pm

I was looked forward about that,how the pally threat generator is work.
Devs,as always,maked a Good job on the talent tree.
But let be honest,in a raid without taunt/aoe,paladin is really have to be concentrate on it to not lose agro,but this is hard.
So , i mainly recommend a paladin aoe,to keep mobs on ourself,taunt is also would be great,but the problem with a taunt,its be coming useless on a raid,like naxx.

Pfwg
Posts: 86

Re: Crusader Strike

Post by Pfwg » Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:05 pm

Paladin tanks lol

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Velite
Posts: 24

Re: Crusader Strike

Post by Velite » Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:47 pm

Paladin threat is fine, it can compete with warriors and druids, the issue is ultimately when a mechanic calls for tank swapping via taunt.


Image


You have these scenarios where paladins are able to tank Patchwerk but not some adds on Razuvious which is dumb.

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